Correct Engine Color for a '72 455 HO
 

I recently purchase engine paint color from the Part Place for my 1972 T/A 455 HO. It appears that the color is not the correct shade of Pontiac blue as on the unrestored untouched motor in my T/A. Was the engine paint color for the subject motor unique? If so, where can the correct color be obtained? I recollect reading somewhere on the blog that a correct share of blue is available. Is it possible I am just looking at a faded and discolored original engine paint?

The '71-'72 engine paint was unique to those two model years. Most of the repro cans you will find have a little too much powder blue and not enough teal in them. The only spray can available that was correct that I've seen is the OEM brand that priced itself out of the catalogs of pretty much every Pontiac parts company around. It was running about $60 a can up until around 2008 in most catalogs. Since then the only way to get it is direct from OEM in 3 can minimum runs for about $210 total with shipping.
The other way is to have it mixed with the formula that is posted on the link below which will give you the correct color or as close as I've seen similar to the OEM brand.
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...=719594&page=2

You can also order it in pints from Scott Tiemann at Supercar Specialties at 517-647-2433

Pontiac's inspiration?

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/l...psd12a1e39.jpg

Scott Tiemann's mix:

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/l...oshoot0009.jpg

Several of the pics from the referenced thread were missing due to photobucket reorganization. The first picture following compares the paint mixed according the Pontiac power website to the Tieman mix. The Tieman mix is the lighter, more correct color. He was very helpful, and I received the paint from him within a week or so of calling.

http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/...12C431893E.jpg

http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/...ps8f761606.jpg

http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/...ps2716937b.jpg

Nice!

OEM has the 71-2 teal as close to any color I have seen. I 2x Rick on this one. I was under the assumption they quit making their colors?? guess I was wrong.not sure why this is a color so difficult to match, but really seems to be. Scotts color looks good, but per your pictures, is still not correct. I bought 4 cans from one of the repo houses a few years back. Glad I have these..and yes, OEM is/was expensive, but $200 to have the correct color..considering the total cost to do a full rest that requires repainting of engine.. guys.. I don't think it is even a close call .. OEM ends up being $150 or so more... yes, think I would buy again if needed.. correct color seems to be more of a green blue vs differing shades of powder blue that all the repo colors are-including Scotts color.... Below are pictures of 71 intake and water neck. These were painted yrs ago, had to wipe dust off surface so color may not come out perfect. This is the OEM color. Looks greener in person vs in these pictures..

I would say OEM looks the most off based on pictures.

So, in conclusion pictures are hard to judge color.

But, I can tell you both are probably good choices to come close.

Judge.. As I posted, in person looks greener than the pics show. But probably same for all these colors.But anyone who has seen OEM in person will agree, it is the closest and I will go as far as to say, it is dead on..

Look at the up close picture of the oil pan, where Brentwheelbob put three stripes of repo colors.. The color of the pan looks just like the pictures I presented, but when he takes a picture far away next to the freshly painted oil pan, it looks different. This is a hard color to take pictures of.. But again, anyone who has sprayed OEM , will agree. Seems like all of OEM colors were dead on, be it Pontiac or CHevrolet or Mopar..

If you will double click my last picture, opening it in a seperate window, then minimize the picture and the thread. SLide the thread to the close up pic of the original oil pan, put the pic of OEM over the oil pan and you will see what I am talking about., It is perfect and this is against the 3 test stripes as well. Judge, I have to disagree.

One thing that bothers me.. Before long colors like Scotts baby plue'sh shade will be seen on more and more cars to the point where everyone will believe this is the correct hue.. Try what I just did and look at the comparisons on top of each other.

Come on guys we all know comparing pictures is really useless....Trust the color of my car has not changed in 40 years yet I can post 10 pictures and it may look a bit different in everyone. But its NOT, so much has to do with lighting, shading, even the camera and about a million other variables.

Yeah what he said...My opinion is they are close. Yours is yours.

Mine is mine.......;)

So what is the correct paint code?

62210 from OEM

Brew..look at the intake manifold picture RicksGTO posted on the link below. That is the right color Teal and he apparently got the light right where the green come through in the picture. My intake looks just like that in person.That is the OEM paint Yes, the OEM is expensive, but someone quoted Scotts color is $100, well as I stated earlier, in the scope of a restoration a couple hundred to have correct color really isn't that big of a deal.Looks like differnece in OEM vs Scotts color ends up being $100 or so.. When you look at the per can cost for OEM comparing to $15 cans at auto stores, yes seems outrageous..When you compare to Scotts cost, not really that horrible.. This is a color that is extremely difficult to get right for some reason. Personally I cannot stand the baby powder blue look of most of these other colros. The greenish blue is correct. No one will argue the original color is greenish blue, not powder blue..
And seen many comment on how good the engine pictuires look using the color Scott has. Any newly painted engine looks too good to fire up.. Doesn't mean it is correct.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=719594

FWIW - Tiemann's mix is dead-nuts on, IMHO.

[QUOTE=70RAlll;5050700]
If you will double click my last picture, opening it in a seperate window, then minimize the picture and the thread. SLide the thread to the close up pic of the original oil pan, put the pic of OEM over the oil pan and you will see what I am talking about., It is is the correct hue.. /QUOTE]

""If I am away from home for more than two days, hang out in a bar until two in the morning, drink a lot of beer, and shut my left eye, the girl at the end of the bar looks just like....wait, wait, wrong forum..."

Sorry, but my juvenile self is hard to contain most days.

Has anyone looked at Horst's paint page?

Pontiac Engine Color

:)

The darker blue swipe on the oil pan was mixed based on the PontiacPower codes from the referenced website. the other two swipes were both Tieman's.

70RAIII and I are going to do a double blind, round robin test. He is going to send me a can of OEM with a few vapors left, and I am going to send him some of the Pontiac Power and Tieman mixes. Once he and I each have multiple objects, painted with multiple mixes, with pictures taken in variable lighting with different cameras, we are really going to have fun with this debate.

here is the shipping invoice on the Tieman paint.:usa2:

http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/...ps3edff786.jpg

and a few more oil pan shots...

http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/...12BFC83EEA.jpg


http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/...12CA107A5B.jpg


Glad I am not going to get carried away with the whole originality thing...

I'm the one that resurrected this discussion. Thanks for all the reply's. Cant wait to see the results once and for all.

Wouldn't heat from engine affect the color?

Many times I paint my engines with the BEST blue metallic color and after a couple heat cycles, it looks different.
Probably same for this color?

Seems it would look a little more 'greenish' with heat cycles?

:confused:

Maybe because they started like this before they were installed. We tend to make them what we feel is the "best factory look".

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/l...ps61562def.jpg

BTW: All paints are just "close" to original because they are not original paints....

Mike, are you pulling your engine to paint it now?

I think what your missing is what color are you trying to copy . Also what year. I bought my car new & the blue on the engine to me was a baby blue or what most call a powder blue. It was on the car for about 8 years before it was pulled & repainted fro a rebuild, but I remember that the color it started was a different color when it was pulled. The baby blue that is scott's color is close to what the 73 baby blue was but the true 73 color was a bit lighter then the one scott has for his color.

Sounds like were narrowing it down a little further and look forward in hearing/seeing the results.

Bruce, its a disease and in my opinion it is the little correct detailing that sets off a car from the rest.
Appreciate the help from everyone in trouble shooting this one!
Brew

I wanna play. Here's a paint daub of Tiemann's '71~'73 blue paint over Ames '71~'73 blue and Ames late '73 blue.

Tiemann's Delstar acrylic enamel ate into the Ames paint causing it to crinkle.

Yeah, I forgot I have a can or two of Ames engine paint floating around. I'll add that to the mix as well. I bought it before I let this whole situation spin out of control, and have just used it to paint a few small parts on the 455HO like the back of the damper. It definitely had a greener tone to it than the Tieman paint.

I think whoever talked about the folly of trying to use a 40 year old part that has been subjected to oxidation, rain, grease and 1000's of hours of high operating temperatures, is absolutely correct. Not that it make this any less fun, but a very valid point nonetheless. If I remember correctly, when I talked with Tieman he said he matched using the paint from the backside of a damper on an unmolested, low mileage engine.

Didn't our old pal Loffen have a page or two on his "tread" about engine paint colors?

Everyone will think I am a jerk saying this..but here it goes.. This color deal was settled a while back with the OEM colors. Tienmann seems to command a lot of respect(not by me, after conversations with him.. my daughter gets more from me) so that is why there is even a discussion today. Many think everything he does is gold.. If the board knew the truth, wouldn't think so. But he does do great body work and his paint jobs are bitch'in.. Anyway, sending bob a can of OEM today, will have it in a couple days.. We will see the difference, if there is any. I have not seen Scotts paint in person, I'm guessing it will not be correct, but I could be wrong..wouldn't be the first and will definately not be the last..

ames looks to have better green hue than the other color. Assuming the non ames is the paint that is on 1/2 of the plate..

Here's a clarification on this test panel:

The left half of the plate is Ames '73+ blue
The right half of the plate is Ames '71~'73 blue

The paint daub in the bottom middle of the plate is Tiemann's Delstar paint.

The paint daub in the middle (Tiemann's) is definately greener than the Ames which is bluer. I'm not sure if it reads that in these photos.

Scott clarified with me that he took the sample from the harmonic balancer after removing the lower pulley of a low mileage GT-37 15 years ago. The paint was solid, fresh and unsoiled. I couldn't think of a better sample to use for a color match. I wonder what OEM used to match their color? Anyone know?

I do hope all you guys are taking in to account that there were 2 colors of blue in 73 & The color for the 72 is also a different color. Also if you can really think that a color would not change in 40+ years even if it's not been subjected to any heat or oil or any other things that would happen to an engine, well thats just wrong. All paint will change over time just from time alone, so even if Scott took the color from the back of a dampner it would still be a different color after 40+ years. Because of the emmissions rules for the 73 engines the blue was 2 different colors in 73. The color for the engines were changed after January 73 to show the EPA that these engines had been changed to meet the new std's for the 73 std's. So no matter what color blue you have it could be correct depending on when the engine was built & certified. Scott does build great cars but he is only guessing to , as any color he's using to copy wouldn't be excact after 40+ years. I use VHT SP122 for my engines that I have built for 73 cars. Thats what I've always used for my car which is a 73 GTO that I've had since new. I use to use the dupi-color but they changed the color blend to make it look more like the late model 75-77 blue which is closer to the old olds blue which is correct for the 75-77 cars. But to each his own , but if you use Scotts it's only close to . No one color is perfect , it's just what everyone will accept as correct, & no ones has it PERFECT.

I recently owned a 3000 mile '79 TATA and that paint looked exactly the same under the rear deck as it did in the nooks of the fenders and door jams and behind the carpet as it did on the top of the hood and trunk deck. Based on some of the logic in this thread I just have to ask myself 'I wonder what color it was originally?' :)

Earlier this spring there was a 14K mile unrestored '74 Firebird Formula Gulfmist blue for sale that I had the privilege of looking over prior to it's sale, and I can again say that paint was unchecked, not faded, and as best as I could tell had not changed color.

IMHO, and with all due respect, to begrudge a guy who goes to the trouble to try to replicate a color as close to original as any logical person could think of a way to do it, by saying he is just 'guessing', is at best illogical. Instead, I'd think anyone that chooses to use OEM, or any other color in which the person doesn't know the history or reasoning behind the color mix is.....'guessing'.

Bentwheelbob and RAIII, what are you going to use as the datum in the double blind to match the color shades from the various manufacturers to?

Thing is that Bob has both already for examples on paint as the Black Formula has OEM paint on engine by Steve. The one on stand is Scott's mix that he matched to a very original 71 455 HO long time ago.

I would think the Pontiac must have had a paint code or dinzer number or factory approved formula. I would think it must exist somewhere. Thanks for all the great comments.

Hay 165th were talking about ENGINE colors not body colors. But if you go there the color of the body will change over time just as well as the engine , but not as much because it doesn't have the heat cycles. But thats not what is being talked about. And yes if you don't have the excact mix you are just guessing no matter who you are or what you do for a living. It's in the facts not the fiction.

In the pic on the back of the color samples of the license plate, only one color of enamel when it is subject to years of engine heat cycles is going to add a greenish tint & turn into another color represented. I'll give everyone a clue, the late '73 paint formulation is not it!

Its also amazing that transformed color just so happens to be evident in a high gloss form in the samples shown... why the high gloss on that particular paint sample? Is it because it looks pretty? I know Bill O can answer this, the question is for the rest of you ;)

Ok, so preparations are underway for the big paint test this weekend. In case anyone thinks that I am approaching this scientifically, the main preparatory items included buying a fresh bottle of bourbon and a brisket for the smoker. The paints that will be sampled will be the OEM rattlecan, the Ames rattlecan, the Tieman mix and the Pontiac Power mix. To keep everything on an even basis (and because it has been a real long time since I used my HVLP) I stopped at NAPA this morning and had them put the Tieman and PPower mixes in rattlecans. I think I will stop this evening and purchase some melamine at Lowes to use as the test object. This way I can then cut it into smaller pieces and efficiently mail it out to those who are interested. I will also shoot samples on the oil pan, but I have no way of knowing if that paint is original.

When I got back from NY last night I did do a little playing around in the Hot Rod Garage. Below are a few pictures which show the "new" engine with Tieman paint, the oil fill cap from the Black Car with OEM paint, and as a tribute to Greg "The Hose Man" a license plate with Ames. As you can see, three very distinct colors. Also below is a picture from NAPA for scientific documentation. Hah.

One question I would like to hear a little feedback on is whether I should clear all the samples after they are applied to give an even sheen to all the different formulations.

http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/...ps1c7d5f07.jpg

http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/...ps1f7d7b66.jpg

http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/...psc9c4834a.jpg

On the first pic the oil cap looks like the correct color. By the photo, that looks like the right amount of green.

You know, you should not have posted what was what! I would have posted the colors to see what everyone thought with only you having the color key.

Dave

If you want it to look real pretty, I would clear it. Although they were not like that from the factory.

2x the sheen. GM did not use full gloss engine colors. A bit much for my taste, but to each their own I guess...

As far as the colors, yes, the OEM color is the closest if not dead on./ The license plate is not even in contention, maybe that is the color of the >73 motors?? The OEM has the correct amount of green in it. Look at the original story linked earlier in this thread. Some guy shows his oil filter adapter, you can see the similar green quite well in that picture..

Bob, not sure what reason there would be to clear any of them, they weren't shot with clear at the Pontiac engine plant. Neither were radiators shot with a gloss black so shiny their tanks looked like hand rubbed lacquer...

The formula you have listed as the Pontiac Power Formula, is it the one Horst Fiedler contributed? If so, it should be the one Lars had published in the Legend in the late '80's. That is the formula I had mixed several times in the early 90's- late 90's & put in cans. The last time around, had a low mile pair of valve covers color analyzed (these had been removed & placed in a box for an older pair of Cal Customs in the Summer of '71). The mix was again, very very close.

As we know, the finish out of a can is not as nice & smooth as it out of a gun, so I'm glad you are going to shoot samples out of gun. I should have another pair of original valve covers off a 4,000 mile original '72. Know I still have the original engine out of that car & it has not been exposed to setting outside in the sunlight. Not sure if those components have had enough heat cycles to color shift or not. Was not concerned with that when I bought that particular Lux LeMans for parts.

Heat cycling brings out more of a green tint & thats is what we are seeing in one sample.. The other extreme, I often run across on the '71-early '73 paint is with the hood off on a parts/project car, or an engine setting in a core pile, the engine enamel tends to fade (bleach out) quite quickly.

Given enough heat cycles, the color on the valve cover will become the color on the valve cover cap. Starting with the color of the valve cover cap, one will eventually end up with an ever greener color result.

pinion.. I'm a little lost with your comment about heat cycles. Granted heat cycles will change the appearance of painted metal, but it will ..or should.. have an equal effect on both the valve covers and the oil fill cap.. those two colors will always be the shame shade apart, either freshly painted or 2 years an 20,000 miles later. maybe I am reading your post incorrectly, sounds like you were saying the heat cycles would make the two separate colors eventually look the same/\??

Well the pressure is getting to me. Too many decisions, too many choices. I've struggled all day thinking about what I should do tomorrow. How do I make the right selection. After much contemplation today, I've decided that I am going to smoke both ribs and brisket, and at the package store I bought both Knob Creek and Sam Adams Octoberfest....

.....and that gave me an idea. Once I get the test samples sprayed, I am going to take the OEM sample to my paint guy and get him to do a paint match and mix me a pint. Then I am going to combine equal ratios of the tieman and the oem mix and do a test sample of that combined color which I will call Who The F_ck Knows For Sure. Ultimately, I will post paint formulations for all three paint colors (Tieman, OEM and WTFKFS) so that any of you can have it mixed locally.

Regarding the test, I have switched from using melamine to MDF. The melamine was too slick and too flexible. Hopefully I'll have something to post tomorrow evening. Wish me luck on the brisket. They can be tricky.

I'm going to slow cook three racks of baby back ribs while this unfolds.

Bob, Thanks ahead of time for posting the paint results. Will be in need of the correct mix come this spring.
Also try Paulaner Octoberfest and Woodford Reserve to help with the cooking process

X2 on the paint needs when the final determination is established. Thanks in advance for doing this!

72 H.O. engine blue
 

has anyone ever used Plasti-Kote #208 Pontiac engine blue in a rattle can?..that is what I used and I was quite pleased...I had used the Ames 72 blue rattle can but I did not like it..i felt it was too dark compared to some of the parts left with original paint..my engine was not removed so its a combination of the intake and the front of the engine and I left the lower half original, separated by chrome valve covers, believe it or not it works..i am curious as to what color wins but again any opinions on Plasti-Kote? thanks!

Don't thank me - it's my pleasure. The last 16 months at work have been more stressful than I care to think about. My sanity has been maintained in no small part courtesy of the Hot Rod Garage and my "e-Friends" here on PY. Both have provided me an escape and an opportunity to focus on better things. Thanks.

Also, 70RAII deserves an honorable mention here. He contacted me about one of my engine paint posts and offered to send me a partial can of OEM paint. It was that contact which initiated this entire insanity.

We are making progress at the Hot Rod Garage. The brisket went on at 10:00 and the ribs joined in at 1:00. Also, I broke my 12:00 rule and popped the top on an Octoberfest at around 11:30. The paint sample project is also underway. I am using the paint booth which has taken over my cabinet/woodshop. I got the MDF primed, wet sanded and a coat of white paint applied as a base coat. I am not sure if I will start spraying engine paint today or not. I am going to tape the MDF off in sections to divide the different paints - that was the reason for the white base coat. I am a little bit afraid that if the base coat does not dry overnight that the dividing tape will peel it up when it is removed. I'm still thinking about it, but my inclination is to not rush the process. Sort of like cooking a brisket. Here's a few pictures.

http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/...psad3caa87.jpg

The smoker - File photo

http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/...ps105b0f6d.jpg

The paint booth - File Photo

http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/...pscc922359.jpg

MDF

http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/...ps259433a3.jpg

Primer

http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/...ps5b143d8e.jpg

White base coat

http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/...ps2c791e35.jpg

http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/...pse55f60f3.jpg

O my, that's quite a production. Enjoy!

You mean like this one? Got it covered....

http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/...ps4732aff1.jpg

http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/...ps2d6dfcc5.jpg