concerns for the pontiac brand moving forward
 

It has been brought to my attention by concerned individuals that on the clown board Gach has decided to try to discredit the Vhead progress among many other whims through the years that has suited his petty agendas. I do realize that stirring the pot may only help get some activity on that site, but felt that a poll is needed.

Poll: 1.Do you think Gach has helped the Pontiac community move forward by encouraging prospective Pontiac people to take the brand up and brought new enthusiasts into the fold?
2. Do you think Gach has hurt the Pontiac community, vendors should not advertise there and individuals should not frequent his site by the flood of misinformation there?

1. No

2. Yes

I can't believe anyone even goes there any more?

:confused:

1. No

2. Yes


Tom Syron

IMO best you can do is warn the newbies who dont know his reputation and when possible avoid the vendors who support him. Who hasnt he found fault with or made accusations/insinuations??? Butlers, Hands, numerous builders/porters, including many of the guys here who still waste their time there, not to mention the CV program and anyone in support of it.

He DOES have the right to say whatever he wants... However with that right comes responsibility... sooner than later he'll face charges of slander he will be forced to answer for... sadly that scenario will likely divide the Pontiac crowd much as happened back when KRE went to court...

BTW screen prints are forever and even when things disappear off his site much of it will still be(IS) on his server or stored on someone elses drive to haunt him later. His problem to deal with.

I am pretty sure many guys dont give a chit about what he posts--like me...
FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION--I GUESS

His board is a laugh. Most of the topics there are topics he imports from the PY board--and by far the most posts over there are by Gach. For someone who doesn't even run a race car (does he even own one?), he spends an inordinate amount of time trashing the efforts of others.

Jim

X2
Gach who? :)

X2 :usa2:

... I applaud the effort on the 1219hp RA-V engine, great job, and don't let the rantings of one lunatic sway you from your efforts JC, it's that type of thinking and effort that will move the Pontiac sport forward ... :usa2:

The Pontiac hobby has a bright and shiny future :)

I find of difficult to bust someone's balls who make 1219 HP!

Just sayn

Kudos to everyone who is pushing the Pontiac envelope in one way or another.

Eric

x2
Im trying to finish up a cv1 engine calvin hill and I been working on for a year now looking to make 1000hp.
i didnt want to post anything for all the bs over there and here about it. taking longer than expected changed things up in the middle of build.

I go there to update a build thread in the Forced induction section and to look at parts for sale. I do a quick look at some thread but very few. There are a couple of guys in there that I have become good friends with. But Gach is totally in his own world there and if he decides to bust may balls for this comment, I will not miss his forum for one second. If he leaves me alone (he has never negitively commented about me or my build in the past) I'll still frequent it. But I repeat, he is totally his own worst enemy, and any and all readers should take his words with a grain of salt.
Mark L

And what is this poll supposed to prove, JC?

Are you going to wave the Gach poll results in his face?

Use your time working to make 1300 HP NA.

Tom Vaught

Cool keep us updated on your build. You will be notorious if you can make over 1,000 HP!

The man is a genius, straight forward, honest with his thoughts.Everybody has a opinion
and a right to answer questions. has not hurt anything!!!

Is BES on this thread ???????

I once call him out about pulling a thread from PY word for word for his site and he started a pissing match with me I came back 3 times with about it and he then pulled all 3 my post.This was years ago but I still go over there.What I think is funny someone will post something and he will go and do the next 5 post then someone else will post then him for the next 4 an on an on. Also I like the rumor is/ it's coming but I can't say at this time/ ect I don't think he knows many of the big dogs in the performance world.

At least he was smart enough to move that pushrod ubstruction out of the way!

What the he11 is a "Gach" ?
 

It kinda sounds like that noise you make when you are trying to get rid of phlegm.......





:P

haven't visited said website in YEARS. Thought it was morgue with tumbleweeds & dust bunnies. might have to go check it out now. BRB

You guys comparing him to Bruce F?

That caught me completely by surprise, so I had to carefully clean my keyboard. Thanks alot!

J.C., I wouldn't lose any sleep over the idiotic ravings of a buffoon. One should only go to his pathetic website for occasional comedic relief. It is in Gach's DNA to berate anyone else's accomplishments or integrity to further his own misguided, self-serving agenda. (Little man syndrome). Like many of his followers, he is afflicted with poor reading comprehension, selective memory and most of all, WILLFUL IGNORANCE !!

Over the years he has picked up enough technical jargon and buzz words to make it sound like he maybe knows something. But the truth is, he couldn't decipher a flow sheet, a dyno sheet or even a timeslip if his life depended on it. Having never accomplished anything noteworthy on his own, he tries to ride the coat tails of those who have, and then talk a big game. Lets face it - five minutes spent with Gach is five minutes wasted.

But like they say: If you can't cut it in the real world, start a blog. LOL

On the bright side, the ECMF seems to have found a new home on PZ. Isn't that special?

I've heard of that Foolper guy
 

He and Gaaaaaccch both "hang out" at the same "male seeking male" dating sites......

That's what happens when you are phallically challenged. :)







(whew, luckily, I got that phlegm loose)

The Pontiac community and the current markets hesitance or resistance to change is its biggest hurdle.

Its got to fit stock valve covers
Its got to fit stock headers
Its got to look like a Pontiac
It cant use only GOOD rocker gear


Well here you go, keep putting that warmed over stock lookalike chit on. :gag:

There is no market for good Pontiac parts, and its our fault , me and you are the market.
So we get chit that is designed to be a baby step so the market will accept it.:gag:


JMO

Naa,

There is a chance Bruce may have actually built a motor once.:D

Has anyone ever seen them in the same place at the same time? Just sayin'????

Mark L

Maple Grove back in 2001-2002 if I remeber correctly.

How is your CV1 program coming along? Do you think you will have it back together for Norwalk next year?

as it looked pontiac was headed towards the ohc tech, and i know that was and still is a pricey setup. But it would appear that we should be able to move into that same direction and this would still be a pontiac design to make everyone happy. Im sure there can be ways to adapt the factory blocks and other components to aid in the lower cost, but the port configurations and design could get even better. now i hate to talk about a Ford, but there mod motors are working pretty good so why not pick up where pontiac left off.

Cost probibitive for 99% of Pontiac guys out there. And we still have not touched the potential in a great cylinder head with more head bolts and a moved bore blocks, which is also very costly.
So we will be stuck with stock intakes and RA4 cams for a while.

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

If the Pontiac faithful really wanted to have a "Pontiac Design" they would build a new engine based on the SOHC Pontiac FI Engine. Overhead cams, super strong bottom end,
no camshaft/pushrod tubes to avoid, Tunnel Ram or Cross-ram style EFI.

But that would take imagination, not "warmed over stock lookalike chit".

Tom Vaught

Not everyone has cubic dollars.
Most of us want to be able to order something that will bolt on, fit and work. There will always be those that push the envelope regardless of brand, but the masses pays the bills.
I can't sink 20-30-40 grand in a one off engine, ain't gonna happen, ever. But if those dream builds get done sometimes the technology trickles down to us underlings.

I would love to see Dick vs Jack at norwalk next year!!!!

Your 100 Percent correct -build and market to the mass's and do the one off exotic stuff in an effort to advance research and development. We however are really getting into muddy water as a hobbiest group. What is a "Pontiac" based engine ?????? define that. Is a RAV really a Ram Air V when no pushrods are in the middle of the port?? Some will say its splitting hairs and some wil say its the heart of the Pontiac "world". Its fun and great to make power and win races with a Pontiac, or any brand for that matter, I guess what Im saying is don't lable something with a title or a name that it isnt.
Im not trying to start a pissing match with this comment - as some will say, but if you look at the latest engine out of BES it look's closer to a BBC or even a Ford than any Pontiac ever did. So if the next guy builds a 706 and used the latest aftermarket Sonny Leanord heads ect ect and puts PONTIAC on the valve cover, is it the new standard that all is measured by???? Just food for thought.

I agree with your comments totally, Curt.

Deal is, it was not that many years ago that RAM AIR IV camshafts and heads was the "Hot Chit" for a Pontiac guy. The Chebby and Ford guys were on version # 37 and 49 of their programs (Ford Guys like to constantly change chit, ;) whether it works or not.)

The Pontiac Guys were stuck on 1971-73 level parts for the most part. Stock 455 SD head would flow about 235 cfm out of the box and a ported RA-IV maybe 300 cfm.

The Chebby boys have their street head from Dart with a 350+ cfm for cheap from Summit, Jegs, etc and a lot better ones from others ported.

So basically a few bought the aftermarket blocks, the better Edelbrock and KRE heads,
etc but compared to the Chebby/Ford market was a drop in the bucket.

Why is this? Because the aftermarket stuff basically looked identical (and functioned identical) to the traditional stuff. No new thinking going on. No new thinking, where is the market. You will not get any cross-over type guys from the Ford/Chebby camps.
If anything the LS engine stole members from the traditional camp, (STILL A GM ENGINE VS BUYING A HEAVEN FORBID FORD ENGINE ;).

So in my mind you have a whole bunch of loyal Pontiac people rooting for a very small number of guys putting down a number. Art Peterson, The McKennys, McCarthy Bros, Arnie, etc from the old days vs hundreds from the Chebby and Ford camps.

SOS is the key word. (Same Old Stuff). No one today brags about their HOT ROD 386 level computer with 1 meg of ram. They want the $$$$ Top End Gaming stuff that people are bringing out daily. That is where the money is. So you basically lost any new guy who wants to race unless the guy is a child of an old Pontiac family and races the brand because "Dad owned a GTO or F-Bird"

So either you can get on the bus with the other "gaming" type guys with new level "Pontiac parts" or you will die like the 386 computer did and PMD did.

May not be the NEW STANDARD Curt, but I will tell you that you will not be competitive as a large group staying where you are at today. Boost is new for most Pontiac Guys (Except for Arnie and Marty Palbykin). Ask Travis, Rodney, Cooper or Welter what their chances are to win a large race more than once with the traditional stuff vs a Ford or Chebby team.

You can talk about it but the bus has already left. Pontiac is Dead.

But my point is "That was YESTERDAY, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO TODAY? JC'S AND DON'S DEALS ARE ONE OF THE FEW FORWARD THINKING DEALS OUT THERE.

Does either one actually look like that old RA-V stuff that costs $10K for a purist (bare NOS cores). NO BUT THE STUFF WILL ACTUALLY WORK AND MAKE POWER and be COMPETITIVE.

Tom Vaught

I've been RACING Pontiacs for almost 40 years, started in 1974 when I bought my FIRST Pontiac a 1974 GTO………. love Pontiacs ever since. If you cut me I BLEED Pontiac! In my opinion if it bolts to a Pontiac block (Factory or Aftermarket) its A-OK with me. The Warp, CV-1 & RA5 all good in my book!



GTO George

I agree with some of that Tom but, getting outside the box like the V heads with convertible exhaust means nothing will bolt up, unlike the Dart BBC where all the support pieces are already in place.

The reason the Pontiac aftermarket stuff looks like OEM is so everything already available will bolt up.

It's a Pontiac by design, why would we want it to be something else?

Im not claiming to have the definitive answer, And I am the first to embrace inovation. All I am saying is I think there needs to be line where it is either a Pontiac -- or its not. Kinda like the athlete that wants to compete as a women ----- but tests as a Man. George, your condition that if it bolts to a Pontiac block its a Pontiac, what if the lifter bores are moved - additional head bolts are added and it has a one off type crank to make it all come together, and you bolt some Sonny's semi hemi heads on that bad boy - Is it a Pontiac ?? And Tom, lets face it, there are way more index or bracket class racers than there are heads up -its just the reality of it all, so is the absolute ultimate combo needed to be able to compete in those classes needed--No. Its the same in the Chev camp -- is a 5.3 in bore space 11.2 in tall deck really a chevrolet when it sports symetrical aftermarket heads ??
They are porpous built race engines -- far and away from Chev's. And if you bolted a set of stock RA V heads on that block -- is it a Pontiac ?? Its very convoluted to say the least.

Gee Curt where do YOU draw that Pontiac line? I gave you mine a set of heads that will BOLT to a Factory or Aftermarket Pontiac Block…….hell, if you want to glue them on I wouldn't care. The KEY is Pontiac Block.


GTO George

I said it wasn't an easy subject -- I think if the average gear head can look at it and see its a Pontiac - so be it - If it looks like a duck - sounds like a duck and smells like a duck ----------- Its a duck. Maybe we are a dieing breed -holding on to old ideas for the sake of nostalgia -- but thats not all bad.

next time im at the track - i'll stand at the gaurde rail and yell - -go you genaric bastard :-)

I dont understand the reason to worry about if everything bolt up properly, i mean hell if you are going to step it up in serious power your not going to use the same performer or factory intake or exhaust. I think we need to let the ones build/design what is needed to win so i can stop hearing the old phase " why dont you put a small block in it" at the local track. I say as long as the timing cover and valley pan bolt up that should be it.

... not that i can afford to buy anything new at this time.

I guess I'm double cursed Pontiacs and 409s!

I can't believe 15 years after I outed him for the fraud that he is, that people are still giving him the time of day in the Pontiac community.:rolleyes:

I fixed it for you.

Aim for the top!!

Very well said!

It's great that some out there push the envelope with smart people to push the Pontiac community forward!

Curt, Using George's definition of a "Legal Pontiac Engine" I could easily bolt these SOHC Ford 427 heads on an All Pontiac Block (Lowering the center lower head bolt drilling .375"). Bore spacing for the Ford 427 is with-in .005" inches of the Pontiac block.

I could call it a legal Pontiac Block and Heads using George's theory ;) (All of the parts are available today new)

Tom Vaught

And this is what it takes to get you out of hibernation, Brian.;)

Jim