When is a Pontiac, not a Pontiac anymore ??
 

... I'm curious to hear/read what others feel about when does a Pontiac stop being a Pontiac ?? ...

... we all have our own opinions, but I think it could be useful/interesting information concerning not just cylinder head design, but block design also ?? ...

... what do you guys think ?? ... :usa2:

I feel if it retains the front timing cover (Or a modified version w/ a more modern water pump) and a reasonable facsimile of the lifter valley cover.....it's a Pontiac. :D

It will always be a Pontiac..... Just call it an after market Pontiac if its got the good stuff on it?

... I tend to think that Bore-Space is the key to it still being a Pontiac, imo, as there have been a multitude of cylinder heads designed by Pontiac (SOHC, Hemi, RA-V, etc.) over the years, different deck height blocks, bore & stroke obviously has changed, reverse cooling, EFI, valve angles too, but as far as I know the bore-space has remained ...

... I don't know of any significant changes to the lifter/cam area, but maybe I'm wrong ...

My first knee jerk answer would be, anything beyond a round port E-head should have a Modified in front of PMD. On second thought, the RA-V opens up the door to all the cylinder head SciFi Madness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFCM6TZgTMI

if you can move the bore space a slight bit within the same block dimensions with same main spacing and an old d port head bolts on its a pontiac. I went to a machine shop and they had a windowed top fuel block with old 440 heads on it on display lol. It was still a mopar to me!

For me you can move the bore space what ever you want within the same block dimensions with same main spacing.

Stan

I saw Bert Straus's Pontiac Pro Stock Astre "Chief Chilly Willy" at Englishtown in 1974 where it qualified very well. It had Pontiac iron heads on it but the ports were somewhere else. :eek: But at the time everyone still called it a Pontiac. :)

Stan

If factory heads will bolt onto the block I'm good ... until a 4.90" bore spacing block is available. :)

1982

Its just like evolution and time effect us as people.

We all get better with age because of are experiences . So does this mean we are not that person anymore , or are we just evolved . So I think if were still buying Pontiac parts for it, its still a Pontiac . So what if they look different. That's the price you pay for making something better.. I still call my mother my mother . And she looks a lot different now then when I was 10... Ok ill stop now. This getting a little out of hand.. Lol! I hope you get what im trying to say........ Im sure I'm
going to get ranked on for this one. Lol...

... so what's the opinion on lifter-bore design/placement and cam tunnel design changes ?? ... as in moved lifter bores, size options, cam journal design changes ?? ...

... Pontiac or not Pontiac ?? ...

I remember seeing "PMD" on some older Pontiacs, which stood for Pontiac MOTOR Division.

Of course, it could no longer be a "motor" division of GM after 1981, so it effectively became the Pontiac Design Division of GM.

Regardless of era, the Pontiac version of whatever GM allowed them to produce was always more attractive than the Chevy version.

That said, I prefer for PMD-era Pontiacs to STILL be powered by Pontiac (exceptions being for F-bodies that came with 403 Olds from the factory, I give them a waiver).

Bill,
If it is OK to move cam lobes around to change the firing order then anything inside of the block to do with the cam for me is fair game.

Stan

"I still have my Great Grandfathers shovel. Its had 5 new handles and 2 new heads, but its still his".

In racing every part is modified or massaged, as long as you're not putting a BBC or other brand motor in it you're good with me.

... I agree David, but while I have you here, you think you can look into my profile, as I am not able to send PM's for some reason ?? ... I can respond to them, but that's all ...

... thanks ... :usa2:

The way I see it Pontiac is dead and gone,make new products anyway you want.

None of the car makers run the same engine designs from 40 years ago or longer.

Maybe you could call certain parts nostalgia or traditional and then have parts listed as newly designed modern technology parts for aftermarket Pontiac .

Bottom line the market for improved technology Pontiac parts is very small,someone could probably make more money producing and selling cast iron d-port reproduction heads than any of the other heads on the market. A 300 cfm iron head with plenty of material left for durability and better cooling would sell really well,sad but true.

PONTIAC
 

ONES PERCEPTION IS HIS REALITY just like THE METALFINISHER SAID AT THE 1978 GTO NATIONALS YOU CAN BELIEVE OR DISBELIEVE WHATEVER YOU WANT BUT I KNOW WHAT I HAVE BUILT:jumping::attention:jumping::attention:jumpin g::attention:jumping:

Yes - IA II and MR1 Blocks - pure Pontiac - which are run in this 7 sec. GTO & 7 sec. GXP :)

Factory bore spacing, ten head bolts= Pontiac
Beyond that, purpose built aftermarket racing engine.
1000 people, 1000 different opinions. Not wrong, just different. The above is mine.

Whatever it takes to go fast! Ford and chebby guys don't have a problem with this, some Pontiac guys do? I run a turbo so Im cheating, lol. I do have fun takeing out new LS powered vettes with a Pontiac.:D

There is no more pontiac.period. That means we can do what we want and not rely on what parts Pontiac would produce for us. Why don't we build something better than everybody else. If All Pontiac or Kauffman would build a spread bore block/crank and matching heads with 5-6 bolts per cylinder and 500cfm capacity, they could call it Pontiac 2.0. We don't know if Pontiac would have built it if they still existed. I think as long as it appears to look like a pontiac and it has a pontiac name on it, and we call it a pontiac, its a pontiac.
Fords new 5.0 does not look like an old 5.0, so is it a ford?
The ls-1 does not look like a typical small block so, is it a chevy?
The new dodges don't start like or look like the old ones. are they dodges?
You guys are getting your panties in a wad over nuthin. You keep peddling the old junk heads and overheated cracked blocks and thats what gets chevy motors in our beloved GTO's and Firebirds. HEY, purist puke, LOOK at me when I'm talking to you... My IA2 block and Tiger heads are not factory correct for my 1969 model year Pontiac Firebird. Man, I'm just gettin started.........

Steve

Thats odd, Mods don't have that ability, but I will put the right person in touch with you.

http://www.steveschmidtracing.com/dr...80-billet-hemi
If these guys can call this a Chevy, we can call anything from the Pontiac community a Pontiac!

Relax Francis Sawyer. Your the one getting all wound up over nothing.

When the bore spacing changes.

Who is Francis Sawyer, that you are calling me, Mr. Ferris?

Steve

Could be wrong.........but here's what I was able to come up with...............

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XlnCgpLl1I

It's a character from the movie Stripes. He seemed to have an anger issue comparable to the post you wrote.

Thats it! LOL

I am not responsible for this definition and can't remember where I heard it but it made me think. I was told " if the engine can't be identified as a known other brand, such as Chevy, Mopar, Ford, Toyota, then call it a Pontiac". Sounds a little strange when you first hear it, but it kinds makes sense in a way too. My personal definition is if it is a Pontiac, it should have substantial Pontiac engineering in the engine package. I don't care who makes the parts. To me, that means stock bore spacing, main spacing, in-line valve arrangement, 10 head bolts, a timing case and a valley cover. However, the canted valve, open bore spacing stuff if perfectly fine for other folks. I wouldn't be running around saying they aren't Pontiacs based on the first definition. Our hobby is so small and getting smaller, excluding people doesn't seem very smart.

The Pontiac engine had some short comings, if the aftermarket addresses this, it's still a Pontiac engine.

I know that Steve Barcak will disagree with this (and I do support his "NO Corporate BS), but my G8 GXP has an LS3 in it and they still call it a Pontiac and one of the last BTW. On another note, I've run several times at the Norwalk Pontiac Tri-Power Nats against guys with BBC in their "Pontiac" rides. Beauty (IE: Pontiac) is in the eye of the beholder.

milt

a modified pontiac is still a pontiac in my opinion, if pontiac heads bolt on its a pontiac,

they call a 5.3" bore space bbc a bbc, its just a bigger one, if we had a bigger bore space option and different cam and lobe option it wouldnt be a pure pontiac but it would be able to compete with the big dog bbc engines that arent real bbc's

Or maybe...... just maybe, it could be a big block Pontiac?

Maybe:oogle:

Jack, go back and re-read my post and take it within the context that it was written. " purist puke" as in the purist that critisizes my car for not being factory correct. I can take that opinion if I want. I can see why you are lashing out at me because I read your signature Restorace. I guess you do some kind of restoring of factory correct race cars? Or model cars? And thats OK, I certainly won't stoop to calling you a name on the internet. You don't know me at all but you call me Francis Sawyer? I believe he was the character that wanted to be called Psycho. Was I that far off base??? Have a sucessful business for over 20 years never been refered to as a psycho.

Steve

Dude Im just messin with you. Relax...

Well Mickey Thompson DID make and sell HEMI heads for the traditional Pontiac Engine so your comment can't be because the Chebby engine is a HEMI. At least Mickey was 50 years ahead of the Chebby guys on that concept.

Tom Vaught

To me, it's all in what you want to call it.

Some say if it's got aftermarket block and heads, it's not a Pontiac anymore.

Some say if it's got a spread bore spacing, it's not a Pontiac anymore.

Some say if you can't bolt a factory timing cover on it anymore, it's not a Pontiac.

If you look at some of the popular racing engines, you see something interesting...CN blocks call their 5.3 bore space block a "BBC". However, it has a much bigger bore spacing, a factory oil pan won't work, a factory timing cover won't even come close, and there's not even a provision for a distributor. Is it a BBC anymore? Some would say no. I, however say yes, because of this fact: the engine reflects changes in design that started off as a factory block. Here's what I mean....one of the first changes to a BBC was deck height. Big deck heights became really common. Then came bigger bore centers. First came 4.900", then 5.000", then 5.200", the 5.300", before ADRL and NHRA finally said "no mas" and put the limit at 5.300" in an effort to contain costs (funny in and of itself). Then there were really big cam core diameters, and radically moved lifters. Some even have skirted mains. At the end of the day, can we really say that it's a Chevy? Not really, but it is still regarded as a BBC because that's where the foundation was.

So the question is, does anyone want to stifle progression in Pontiac parts (and therefore performance) because of an idea of what does or does not constitute a "real" Pontiac? To me, there's not enough people doing fast Pontiacs as it is.....why make life any harder?

It is what it is, and to each his own, I say.

FWIW.

exactly the point i was getting at, well said

IMO if Pontiac would have been given free reign on engine design they likely would have had something way different under the hood by 1970 let alone further evolve as the 90's approached.

Pontiacs were supposed to be the step up from Chevy... yet they ended up restricted from hurting chevy sales. Wouldnt be surprised if folks at chev are schemeing how they kill off GMC Buick and Cad.

Ive said it more than a few times when they killed PMD... WE are Pontiac now!

We have free reign if we want it. Maybe if enough interest in something it will be made?

I think it has been pretty much proven there is NOT enough interest.
So many just express the want from envy and ego!
Many vendors producing new innovative "Pontiac" stuff are hardly thriving..

I wonder how many sets of pro ports Edelbrock has sold?
Might they be regretting the production at this point.

Locally we used to have a number of Pontiac guys, now we have two and one doesn't give a chit anymore!

The LS is an updated sbc with ford bolt pattern heads and ports, same bore spacing as a sbc just skirted block and lots of visual changes and features. Most engines it's all in the heads anyways, doesn't matter what the block is lol

Hey those visner heads will still bolt on my 400 block! Lol

If it doesn't use the HT-951 lifters & real Pontiac heads will bolt on the block it is a Pontiac. It is no longer a Pontiac if it has a chevy , olds or buick engine in it. When GM started using all the other engines from the other divisions then Pontiacs no longer were Pontiacs. But this is not smart question as the answer is in its self. A Pontiac is no longer a Pontiac when it no longer has a Pontiac engine in it. Plain & simple. If Pontiac developed it & used it then it's a Pontiac engine. If not then it belongs to another division then it's not a Pontiac engine which makes it something other then a real Pontiac. Plain & simple.

But look at the total package. If it's got a mustang style front end and a 9 inch, mine as well be an SCJ. So who is crossing over the line?

Lets make it simpler then the last post. If it says Pontiac on the car It better be Pontiac powered to be a Pontiac. Dive train & suspension has & can be changed because it's not the Heart of the car. Pontiac cars Pontiac Power. Thats it.

Scarebird, technically you are correct the ls-1 was a GM effort but try and convince that point to the chevy crowd.

Hey guys, think about this. In 30 years what will this hobby be? History will repeat itself just like the old 30's-40's-50's cars got their engines pulled and a better performing engine installed. That will happen here too, unless we come up with something as good or better. I am about to go pick up 2 -400's that I finally found for almost $1000.00 and hopefully there are no cracks and they are actually rebuildable. I used to find these for 150.00, this situation is only going to get worst for our kids and grandkids. I will not race these engines so as to preserve them. I will however rebuild 1 of them for one of my employees, he's a good kid and I also would like to get the 350 sbc out of his 78 formula. It will be his 2014 early christmas bonus.

Steve