Torque Tube Bushings
 

I posted my problems on this link 5/2013 to 6/2013 and finally have the clutch, torque tube and transmission out of the car. 1963 Pontiac LeMans 326, three speed manual. I've got all the parts required to fix the clutch and having a pilot bearing machined but I'm desperate to locate two each torque tube bushings including the rubber? assembly. Mine are chewed up badly. The vehicle has 67,000 original miles and found after I bought it, the new clutch was installed incorrectly among other major problems. I know how rare these bushings are but if anyone out there can help with a working pair I would be forever (AND THAT'S A LONG TIME) in your debt. I'm located in Oceanside, Ca. about 40 miles north of San Diego. Your help wold be greatly appreciated. Mike with the beard

Does anyone know if all these bushings are different for each application or are they all the same?

I don't have any of this stuff, but here are the pages from the parts book. Appears to me that there are no differences between 62-63 4 or 8 cylinder.

Part numbers
 

Gary, My parts book lists the following part numbers: Group 5.601, Propeller shaft : "Insulator, damper bearing"--1961 pn#539517 and 1962-1963 pn#541662, but it lists one bearing for all 61-63 as pn#907193.
So, all the ropeshaft cars used the same bearing, but the 61 cars used a rubber insulator different than the 62-63 cars, which used the same insulator.
Jerry

Thanks Bill and Jerry, I was hoping the insulator would be the same on the 62-63 even though he needs a V8 3speed and I have 62 4 cyl automatic insulators.

I will dig some out over the weekend and Mike can see if they fit.

Like I said earlier..too bad we can't scan and 3-D "print" a duplicate of the torque tube insulator for those who really need one. Couldn't be that expensive compared to no longer available at alll !!!! If we're going to keep this engineering design going we have to embrace the "new" technology. NOS stuff is drying up !
JK

bearing insulator repair?
 

Since there are no new bearing insulators being manufactured and there is probably not enough demand for them to get anyone to make them, it occurs to me that a do-it-yourself type repair kit could be devised for repairing insulators that are worn but with the bearings still being in good shape (or perhaps after putting a new bearing itself in an old insulator). I have read that it is not uncommon that original bearings remain in good shape even though the insulator rubber has deteriorated.

Basically, my concept is to have the old worn insulator rubber sandwiched in between pieces of new rubber held in place by metal plates and held altogether with through-bolts, somewhat like as shown in my attached sketch drawing.

I assume that the original insulator rubber hardness is in the range of Durometer Shore A 70 rating. Whatever it is, it could be that the new rubber pieces could be only half the thickness of the original rubber and that would give the equivalent stabilizing force as the original insulator. The thickness of the metal plates could be varied as necessary with thinner plates being optional.

Similarly, once the unit is assembled, the new rubber pieces could have slots cut in them similar to the original rubber pattern. Also, the metal plates could be glued to the new rubber pieces.

Through-bolt sizes and location could be varied as needed. It may be that some bolt holes could be located on the outside perimeter of the insulator’s metal bearing retainer ring to keep it in alignment with the new rubber and plates.

Perhaps some of you hot-rodder (Keith, that is) can try something like this idea and see how it works. I am sure that there are a great many guys that can improve upon my basic concept, so, have at it.

P.S. If it hadn’t been so damned cold I probably wouldn’t have taken the time to draw up something like this on my grandson’s PAINT program.

Torque Tube Bushings
 

Great Idea, but I'll bet there would be as much demand for a torque tube bushing as there is for many of the other rubber replacement parts on the market that are 1963 Tempest/Lemans specific. I think I'll contact Steele and some of the other aftermarket suppliers to see what interest they might have in reproducing these insulators. Will probably be expensive, but compared to "not available at all", who cares.

Can anyone tell me how to remove them from the bearing without damaging them? I got a set for Mike but one began to rip apart when I tried to remove it. A heat gun was not any help either.
Gary

I can't remember for sure but I'm thinking that the bearing is pressed into a metal sleeve that is permanently attached to the rubber? I'll have to dig out my spare to see.

I found this previous thread on this topic. Scroll to post #28. I hope this helps.
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...acement&page=2

torque tube insulator bushing
 

I have recently contacted a fellow that (on a small scale sideline business) makes replacement rubber and plastic parts for automotive parts, trim, etc. I have asked him about making these rubber insulator pieces and he feels that he could make them. He has no concerns about being able to make the rubber adhere to the bearing housing ring.

I need some more detailed information about the pieces.

Since the bearings themselves are readily available, I consider that the project would consist of making up a new insulator by using either an old bearing housing ring or by using a new ring, which, in either case, the buyer would have to furnish and ship to the fellow.

I assume the housing ring itself is nothing more than a ring with one inside rim slightly beveled to facilitate pressing the bearing into. Is that correct?

It appears that the bearing is recessed slightly into the ring. Is that correct?

Does the outside diameter of the ring have any tabs or projections that protrude into the rubber itself?

What is the overall height of the insulator?

What is the overall width of the insulator?

What is the overall thickness of the insulator?

The most important item is the Durometer reading (hardness) of the rubber itself.

Does anyone know what the Durometer reading of the rubber is?


Of course the biggest question is: What is the demand for such an item and what would a buyer be willing to pay for one of them?

What is the current or recent selling price for a new one of these insulators?

I do not know the fellow who makes parts nor do I have any financial interest in such a project. Unfortunately, I do not have one of these insulators that I could furnish the fellow for his inspection.

I owe the fellow a return E-mail about this matter so any info that anyone could furnish me would be appreciated. Photos with dimensions would be great.

Thanks!

Torque Tube Bushings
 

I have a NOS bushing that could be used for him to reproduce new ones from....send me a pm and I'll give you my email address and we can discuss it.

torque tube bushing
 

I have contacted the fellow and furnished him approximate dimensions and a photo of the piece. He responded that he is interested in following up on the discussion, indicating that he would like to have a new insulator for precise measurement and Durometer testing and an old one for dismantling and inspection. He has assured me that any new one sent to him would be returned to the owner undamaged.

At this point, I am frankly disappointed that there has been little to no response to any of the questions I posed in my original post. One would think that despite all of the complaints of the unavailability of these insulators, there are apparently very few owners that are interested in getting new ones reproduced.

I note that there are posts on this topic going back to 2005 and at various times mention was made indicating that new insulators were available from various sources.

Does anyone know of anybody that is reproducing and selling these insulators at this time?

Does anyone know what the current or recent price is for one of them? (E-bay? other?)

What would someone be willing to pay for a new one? (Without bearing? With bearing?)

I was surprised when the fellow said that he possibly could reproduce the bearing housing rings. (I know that he has availability of machine shop facilities.) If he could indeed furnish his own rings, that would set up the possibility of his being able to furnish a completely new insulator with bearing installed. That would eliminate the cost of a buyer having to send an old insulator (or ring) to him.

I would urge all owners to respond to this post since it appears that this is a real opportunity to have these parts reproduced. Of course, the 61 Tempest pieces are different than the 62-63's but I am confident that the 61's could be reproduced if there is a demand for them.

This could be an opportunity of developing a source for other pieces/parts such as shifter boots, taillight gaskets, etc. that are not now being reproduced or available.

As I have mentioned, I don't know the fellow, I have no financial interest and I have no need for these insulators. I am doing this only for the benefit of the Tempest owners.

Thanks! Please respond.

I have a torque tube that I'm keeping for a spare and it needs this. If the price can be kept reasonable, I'm in.

x2 that

I would be in for a set for my wifes car.

Depending on the cost, I would be in for at least 2 sets! Maybe more!

Me to

i would buy 2

I'm in for a pair

Maybe. It would be a spare as we are just about to get my son's back on the road.

Driveshaft bearings
 

What constitutes a "GOOD'' or affordable number? If you need a pair, what is that worth? I would not know the value of the part if I were to find one so . . . . what does a guy pay?

Torque Tube Bushings
 

Guys... I paid 50.00 for a NOS Insulator from a place called Collectors Auto Supply. They could only find (1) among their sources. I need two, so would I pay more for another if I could find it, you bet. At what point does the price become unreasonable ?
That's for each of us to decide. I'm not sure what my cut off point is. At the time, I thought 50.00 was pretty steep. Now that I still nedd one more, I'm not sure.
JK

It can easily take weeks or months to find one. If you need one in the summer and can't drive the car till you find one, what's it worth to find it?

If I needed one (or two) bad, I'd pay a lot! Then I'd shop around for a spare at a better price and divide the total price paid by the number of bearings and feel a little better about it. In the mean time, if somebody needed my spare they would have to pay the higher price...

(I think fifty bucks is more than fair considering that good ones last for decades.)

It seems that by answers to my post there is a current demand for about 20 of these pieces. Only one member (by private message) responded by saying that he had bought an original one for $50 sometime back after a long search. He did not say whether or not the piece contained a bearing, nor did he say how long ago it was when he bought it.

There are various brands of bearings used in these pieces. In an old post a member mentioned that he had used the VXB 6005 2RS unit and to date at that time he had put some 14,000 miles on it without any problems. There has been some comment here that the VXB 6005 2RS bearing is of low quality and being "Chinese made". A brief look on E-bay shows that a 6005 2RS bearing can be bought for much less than $10 and some sellers include free shipping at that price.

So, with that kind of pricing, it is to be determined what any of you would pay for:

1. a NEW insulator without bearing installed? ...............???
2. a new insulator with bearing installed?......................???

The fellow I am talking to about doing this project has indicated that he may be able to "furnish" the bearing retainer rings for this project instead of having any buyer sending him their "old ring" for refurbishing for use in the new pieces. Of course, if old rings are to be sent in, then there is a shipping cost to the buyer in doing that. That shipping cost is probably in the range of a few to several dollars. Of course, the fellow would have to refurbish the old rings and that would be a labor cost to him. With that in mind, it seems that it would be better for the fellow to furnish rings if it fits in his economics.

Of course, there is a shipping cost for sending the pieces to the buyer. I assume that cost would be between $5 and $10 and that amount would be included in the price.

So, again, what price would any of you would pay for:

1. a NEW insulator without bearing installed? ...............???
2. a new insulator with bearing installed?......................???

Thanks!

There are alternatives for the ropeshaft bearings available besides "Chinese made".
Delco NDH New Departure Hyatt Made in USA #Z993L05 25mm x 47mm x 12mm. All of the bearings below listed on Ebay are under $10.
The VXB 6005 2RS bearings that I commented on 6 years ago are Chinese made. I did not call them "low quality", I referred to them as cheap. I feel that Americans should buy American made parts for their vintage cars when possible.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DELCO-NDH-BE...item3c9f922ff1

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NIB-NDH-Delc...item3f1be828ec

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Z993L05-NEW-...item54053580b6

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-New-Delco-...item2eb48795cb

ww.ebay.com/itm/NEW-IN-BOX-NDH-BEARING-DELCO-Z993L05-BALL-BEARING-GM-PRODUCT-270-3-/171036839577?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27d297 0e99

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NDH-Delco-Ne...item257ff32225

a new insulator with bearing installed ( with quality bearing)
i Would easly pay $50.00 each or $100.00 for a pair pius shipping! However my if apart now and will be back together in 45 days. What could be the turn time?
Rick

I don't want to start a bidding war, but I would pay $50 for an insulator, with the bearing cup, but without a bearing. And I would buy 2, at least.

If I have to provide the bearing cup, I'd want $10 off.

bearings or not?
 

Granted there are several NDH bearings currently listed on E-bay, it appears that there only about 20 available and by looking at the photos of them some "appear" to have some rust issues and all are old NOS bearings. With price and shipping, it appears the average total cost would range slightly above $10.

I called Advance Auto about an interchange bearing for the NDH model and I was informed that an equivalent bearing #105-CC is available from National only as a direct order item for $27.29 to Advance.

So, it being obvious that there may be a wide range of choice of bearings to any insulator buyer, it appears that the simplest thing to do is to have the fellow furnish only a new insulator and let the buyer do his own bearing installation in the new insulator himself.

Accordingly, it appears that the pricing for a new insulator would be on a "without bearing" basis. Some members have indicated a $50 price for a "with bearing" item. If one deducts an average of $10/bearing from the $50, then it appears that members would pay only $40 per new insulator (with buyer paying any additional shipping costs).

Currently there are no new insulators being made. It is all in the very earliest planning stages and no pieces/parts of any new or used insulators have been furnished to the fellow for him to examine (although one member has volunteered to furnish a NOS unit for the fellow to inspect for Durometer, dimensions, etc).

It appears by responses that there is a demand for only about 20 new insulators, hardly an earth shattering amount, and at $40 apiece generating only $800 of total income, I cannot see the fellow being too inclined to take on the project.

I am going to contact him and discuss these aspects in a day or so. I will post results. In the meantime, remember that these insulators are on the Pontiac UNOBTAINIUM list but this may be the way to get them off that list.

Torque Tube Bushings
 

If this guy can provide a quality reproduction of the insulator at a reasonable cost, I'd be happy to buy 40-50 pieces, maybe more, if that's what it takes to get this project going.
JK

torque tube bushing
 

Jeff, You have a Private message.

torque tube bushings
 

The fellow I am talking to about reproducing these items has indicated that he can reproduce the bearing housing rings himself. He also indicates that he has a source for a quality bearing for use in the piece.

Accordingly, he has indicated that he could produce a complete insulator with bearing installed and he is inclined to make them up that way.

Thankfully, board member "Chiefkey" has volunteered to provide a NOS insulator to the fellow for measuring, Durometer testing, etc. The testing of the NOS insulator will be non-destructive.

At this point, the fellow needs to have an old insulator with ring (or just the ring itself) for his machinist to measure.

Does anyone have an old insulator (or just the ring itself) that you are willing to furnish for the cause???

Also, the fellow has indicated that he would make up an insulator and send it to me for my approval before he would proceed in making any for sale.

Personally, I feel that the bearings selected and the overall design/materials of the insulator would be of no concern. My only concern would be as to how well the "rubber" would adhere to the housing ring. Right off, I can't think of a handy way to "test" that aspect. My thoughts are that a test could be made to see how much pressure it would take to "shear" the rubber from the ring, maybe by use of a bench hydraulic press setup.

Obviously, such a test would not compare with what the factory did in their testing when they were designing these things but with such a small volume of demand for these items,
I can't see where anything more than a simple hydraulic press test would be warranted.

Again, does anyone have an old insulator (or just the ring itself) that you are willing to furnish for the cause???

Thanks!

Torque-tube Bushings
 

Hi Doug,

Wow . . . this is becoming a popular topic!!!

My first "high-paying" job - out of high school, was at Dayton Rubber in my home town. 'Made $3.75 plus shift differential . . . BIG MONEY for an unskilled kid . . . . . in 1964.

I recall that as utility worker, one of my tasks was to insert a (vulcanized) rubber-clad steel sleeve into a larger cylinder thus creating a bushing which was installed into the ends of a huge leaf spring for use on period semi tractors. The key ingredient to this process was - in addition to the hydraulic press - was a specific oil. I had to soak the rubber-clad sleeves in "this oil" for about an hour and then insert the slightly softened inner bushing into the outer sleeve. The oil was critical because the rubber needed to be softened so that it wouldn't be damaged as the inner bushing penetrated the inner "ridged" barrel of the outer sleeve!

It might be a good move to test an unused bushing in a lab situation for composition as well as hardness. There may well be an engineer - still living - who has knowledge or perhaps access to data relative to these components. GM spent a great deal of money to calculate pressures and load forces on components such as these. I would be resistant to installing NEWLY made parts of this nature especially if I could for-see injury to my family - myself or any person in my vicinity while driving at road speeds.

That's it,

Paul

Paul, Thanks for the commentary.

These bushings are entirely different critters than the Sonoma bearing. If you look at post #3 of this topic you will see a diagram of the driveshaft setup and the #29 part which is the insulator part. Post #10 is a photo of the piece. These bushings are entirely enclosed within a "tunnel" (tube) and a typical failure would be the bearing would seize up from use and the rubber insulator would "turn around" inside the tube until it is destroyed.

These insulators are not subjected to a heavy load. They serve to keep the driveshaft centered in the tunnel tube and to reduce vibration of the driveshaft. I cannot envision any situation where the failure of one of the insulators would jeopardize the safety of anyone. Failure of one would however be a big problem for the car owner because these parts were never reproduced and have been virtually unavailable for several years.

Thanks again for your interest.
I believe the fellow I am talking with about doing this project told me that at some time he worked in a "rubber" products manufacturing facility which would indicate that he has some higher level of expertise.

Agree.

The Damper bearing insulator/bearing is contained in the Torque-Tube and if the bearing seizes it will just spin and chew up the rubber. Might make a racket but a OE part would not be a safety issue and I can't imagine that a repro would do any different.

torque tube bushing
 

Again, does anyone have an old insulator (or just the ring itself) that you are willing to furnish for the cause???

If nobody has one readily available, I might be able to dig one up. Give me a couple of days.

torque tube bushing
 

Thanks for the offer. Hope it pans out.

Furnishing the fellow an old worn out bushing and the NOS one from Chiefkey is where this thing stands right now.

If I had one I would gladly donate it to the cause.

ring
 

I may have a ring from an insulator that was melted in a fire, if you are interested in it.
The rubber is gone, but the ring should be on the bearing.
Jerry

torque tube bushing
 

Jerry, It may be that I don't need an old ring if you can look at yours and answer these:

Does the outside of the ring have any projections/tabs that stick out into the rubber?

Does the outside surface of the ring appear to have any knurling or other feature that appears to assist the bonding of the rubber?

I am sure that the NOS insulator that Chiefkey has offered will allow the fellow to get the basic dimensions (thickness, width, outside diameter, bevel) of the ring from it and the inside diameter of the ring will be that recommended to allow the press-in bearing to fit properly.

Thanks!

Ring
 

Here are some pictures of the insulator ring that the ropeshaft bearing presses into. It is bonded to the rubber with glue and a small interference fit. There is no staples or knurling on the ring to keep it from spinning in the rubber.

The ring is rusty from getting hot in the car's engine fire. Hope the picturs answer your question concerning the insulator's construction. Jerry

torque tube bushing
 

Jerry, Thanks for the pics.

Frankly I was surprised to see that the ring is apparently flared to the outside on one side and flared to the inside on the other side. (I assume the inside flare is to provide a seat for the bearing when it is pressed in.)

It looks as if the ring was made by a stamping process and the metal itself is fairly thin (I had imagined it was about 1/16th or more thick.)

I doubt that the fellow can duplicate the "stamping" process but I don't see why the ring can't be machined out of a piece of stock in a lathe, especially for a somewhat low volume of pieces.

At this point I am going to contact Chiefkey and get him to send the NOS piece to the fellow and see what he thinks of it.

However, if you can, would you measure the thickness of the ring metal and let me know what it is so that info can be passed on?

Thanks,

thickness
 

Doug,
The ring measures approximately .037". In between 1/16" and 1/32". Seems to be made from a strong, hard metal. At that thin measurement, it is still very strong and hard to bend. Good luck.

torque tube bushing
 

Thanks for the info.

I did some research and it looks like these rings can be machined out of a piece of 2" Schedule 80 pipe stock. A cleanup cut of about 1/32" or soon the outside would leave a ring thickness of a 1/16" or so. A machine cut on the inside diameter of about 1/8" or so would fit the outside diameter of the bearing and leaving the full inside diameter for a short distance past the internal cut would provide a ledge for the bearing to set on. A slight bevel could be put on the other side for ease in pressing the bearing in.

Yesterday, I sent Chiefkey a private message asking him to go ahead and send his NOS insulator to the fellow. I mentioned the idea of making the rings out of 2" Schedule 80 pipe and I asked him to discuss that with the fellow too.

Thanks for the input. Hopefully this will work out.

Not sure if this will help you but here it is, a view of the torque tubes.

Torque tube bushings
 

Any updates on the repop bushings

Torque Tube Bushings
 

I've been in contact with a fellow in NC who took a NOS insulator I sent him and he made a mold of it and created several samples which he sent to me and another forum member. They look great and appear to be better than the original. I've been trying to arrange to have him reproduce 20-30 pieces to begin with, but he seem to be having a problem finding someone to make the metal insert that holds the bearing. I've had several conversations with him but we haven't gotten beyond the sample stage. I'll try and see if he's still interested in proceeding and will let everyone know how it works out.
Maybe we'll all get lucky and find they're available in the new Ames Catalog.
JK

these are not in the new Ames catalog.