Red Can Am for sale on ebay. Can't be right?
 

Seen it on ebay today. I believe there was only one red one, and that one was sent back to pontiac. It had a 305 chevy motor in it, according to Jim Wagners.

No GP dash but has Flintstone floorboards, lol..... Lots of non verifiable hearsay in the description too. A red Lemans with CA hood & spoiler IMO but who knows.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-Le-M...US_Cars_Trucks

Has the Z in the vin. True 400 car which was not available with the lemans.

I wonder what PHS shows?

Jim's car?

http://www.pontiacsonline.com/JW77CANAMPROTOTYPE.JPG

The seller says he bought it new , but I think while he was working at the dealer where he bought the car he just swapped a bunch of the parts to make it into a Can Am. I has the stock Lemans dash, which ALL of the Can Ams had the G/P dash even the ones that didn't get completed. Plus they were all white to. IMO I think the owner has just read a bunch of the articles about the CA & has even back then decided to make one so he would have on because he possibly couldn't get one back then but the pieces where available so because he worked at the selling dealer he was able to get the parts he needed to make one. But I don't believe this is a real one.

Alvin & 77 where are you?

The 400 cid engine was available in 77 for the Lemans, it was the 455 that you couldn't get anymore. But the 400 was available in all the A & G & B bodies in 77.

14,530 400 engines in Pontiac A-bodies in 1977

But the ad says it does not include the Hello Kitty plate, that kills it for me! to bad.

In '77? Say what?

Cowl tag rubbing if it helps anyone...


http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...3&d=1390603510

Well, it does verify the car's original paint code is Firethorn Red. By that, and the LeMans dash, I'd guess it is NOT a Can AM or one of the cars that wasn't finished after the spoiler mold broke. More likely, he added the Can Am parts to the car although it is possible the dealer did it back in '77. Still, it could be a neat car if the price stays reasonable.

Wait a min. I thought that the AD cars were the cars with the large side windows & that the AF coupes were the cars with the louvered windows in the side??? Did the lettering change in the later modle cars ??? If not this car has the wrong cowl tag to. AD is the large side window without the louvers , AF is the cars with the louvered windows, & if not mistaken AG were the Grand Am & Grand LeMans cars. Am I wrong or did the lettering change???

VIN in the ebay listing is 2F37Z7P416232
Is that cowl tag rubbing off the same car?

H37 Grand Am 2dr
H29 Grand Am 4dr
D37 LeMans 2dr
D29 LeMans 4dr
F37 LeMans Sport 2dr
G37 Grand LeMans 2dr
G29 Grand LeMans 4dr
D35 LeMans Safari 2 Seat Wagon
D45 LeMans Safari 3 Seat Wagon
G35 Grand LeMans Safari 2 Seat Wagon
G45 Grand LeMans Safari 3 Seat Wagon

He's the one that sent it to me.

One thing that is interesting, the car in the above pic and the one on ebay bear a striking resemblance to each other. Both are bench seat cars, and are red i/o, too bad you can't tell what dash is in the above one.

:popcorn:

I met Tim (the owner of this Can Am) back in the early 80's & his back story on this car is the same as the eBay listing. It had all the Can Am components at that time & it appeared to be stock. He is a stand up guy in my opinion & I have no reason not to believe him for what it's worth. A PHS report would go a long way in explaining things & could possible legitimize the cars identity. My only question is whether any Can Am's came with the Lemans style dash configuration?

No skin in this game, so either way no worries IMO.

Instead of a WAG from MY memory, I did a radical thing! I looked it up. :D For clarification of the "pilot" Wangers Motortown Can Am "proposal car" as presented to Pontiac mgmt, using HIS words from his published memoirs - Glory Days:

"...we 'stole' the highly acclaimed Grand Prix instrument panel"..."We called it the Judge, and recommended that the first cars all be painted Carousel Red (right off the 1969 car)."

"Our program called for the car to be built as a Le Mans Sport Coupe at Pontiac, with the Grand Prix instrument panel..."

Pg. 273 The Can Am :confused2

A good friend of mine sent this to me after we talked about the car:

Dave - sent your pic of the red Can Am to Ben Harrison (Pontiac Product Planning Manager from '64-mid-80's). Here is his reply: Scott,

As the guy who was given total responsibility to make this car happen at Pontiac Motor by Pontiac's General Manager Alex Mair, I can assure you that the car you pictured is NOT an official Pontiac Motor Division preproduction prototype.

Ben

He followed it up with this:

Dave- I also heard back from John Schinella on the red Can Am - he backs Ben up & says that the red one was not done at Pontiac. If the seller is original owner & claims it was bought new this way, the only remaining explanation is that it's a dealer job... Looks cool, but I'd say it's a LeMans Sport Coupe done up in CA livery...

Hard to argue it is a real Can Am.

Thanks for the follow-up and "the rest of the story" info.

As you know, Alex Mair is THE MAN mentioned in Wangers' memoir that the pilot car was presented. He was “the decider” if it was to move forward and become a Pontiac offering or not.

Jim wrote:

Thanks for the info Alvin. I have no skin in this either - just thought I'd throw in what I knew about this car & the owner. Has the "red" Can Am ever been located?

Not to my knowledge. But who knows what story some salesman told to an original "dealer" car purchaser. Obviously this photo of the red car has been floating around for yrs. Jim w PHS would have verified "special" units originally produced or still existent - one would think.

However there was a Carousel Red (orange) Can Am w white interior driving around Bryan/College Station TX with all the factory stripes, equipment etc. back in the '80s.
It was jacked up with 50 series tires and Crager SS wheels, other than that it looked stock from the outside/inside - except in Orange exterior. WAG - Probably just a repainted CA w new stripe kit - as those were still dealer available back then IIRC.

At the time I liked the look.

And personally, I like the eBay car. It is going up into rough Can Am pricing the last time I looked, $4550 I think, and the reserve still hadn't been met.

I have heard stories over the years that some dealers did gather the parts to make a complete car, but the eBay car was painted & outfitted exactly as the one pictured. My girlfriend had a Can Am that she purchased in '83. We were vacationing down in the Bradenton area when we spotted the red Can Am at the Holiday Inn on Longboat Key, FL. Tim's girlfriend worked there & we spent some time with them. If anything, he may be longest surviving original owner of this car. Lastly, car salesmen always tell the truth - Right? In conclusion, if this was my car & thought it might be the "red" Can Am, a valid PHS report could send this auction spinning with Can Am collectors. We will see. I need to participate here more as there appears numerous Pontiac lovers/experts on this site - Thanks.

I thought the reason for the short production run was the machine that made the spoilers broke. If that's the case, how could a dealer make/fake one out of OTC parts?

Cool. In case you haven't visited, based on your Avatar image, here's the link to the Late Model GTO, G8 etc. sections http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...play.php?f=532

PY would greatly appreciate your contributions there also...and let your friends know about it.

Edit: here's 1 of the forum sections http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...play.php?f=503

Thanks Alvin for the links. Yes, that is a 2006 Holden Monaro (GTO) that I picked up new in 2007. My roots go back to a 1971 Trans Am that I purchased in 1977 & 1969 GTO RAIV that I picked up in 1986. I sold both of them in 2006 due to a divorce. Six month later, I was back in like the mob when I took notice on the new "GTO". It's a great for what it is, but I do understand the controversy with the original GTO people. I have none of that as I lived in both worlds. One day soon, I want to buy another 2nd gen. Trans Am.

Excellent. So you'll understand both sides and emotions of the "discussions" ;)

I should of given you this main link PY Welcomes 2004-06 GTO Owners
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...play.php?f=502

BTT - too bad there's so much rust on the red Le Mans aka Can Am...although "minor" by rust belt standards, from what is shown looks to be a major rework/rebuild IMO. No "touch up" of areas with that Metalic Red paint...total repaint most likely required AFTER rust eradication.

YES I do, but Thanks for the heads up. I just like fast cars no matter what brand or emblem they wear.

Question did any of the 77 Can Am come with the hood release on the out side front bumper ?

Many did. The inside hood release was an option in '76-'77 on the LeMans. Option code T44.

Invoice
 

The seller sent me a copy of the invoice through an ebay message so the quality was pretty poor. It did list the 400 engine and trans but no Can Am option on the invoice. I still think what the seller says was very possible in which case it would not show up on the invoice, but the charges for the conversion would have shown up on other dealer documents that he no longer has, so there is no proof of a trip to Motortown that way. I asked if there were any early pictures from when he first got the car and have not gotten a response. Documentation or not, it is an interesting car. You could look at it as a fake Can Am or a very rare LeMans with unique accessories.

I agree, I think it is a cool car either way. And I tend to believe the seller truly believes he bought a Can Am. If he were trying to pass it off as a CA, I would think he would have put the GP dash in it. I believe the dealer added the parts, and they told him it was a Can Am. No one, at the time, would have ever thought it would create the controversy it has 37 years later.

And Boss, at the time the mold broke, there may have been some spoilers floating around in the parts network. Or, the dealer may have gotten a totaled CA and stripped the parts off. Just like the old Tootsie Pop question, "The world may never know".

The tooling was redone, and spoilers were made. A few cars were converted at the dealership level in order to fill the several orders that were outstanding. This is the most plausible explanation in regards to this red LeMans Sport Coupe. I would still like to know if this car has the Y6 block code stamping.

So, does this mean that approximately 1,000 Le Mans Sport Coupes - which were never converted into Can Ams - are in circulation with Grand Prix instrument panels and dashes?

What would show on the build sheets or PHS for those that never were converted I wonder?

I don't know about 1000, but in thery there should have been 100-200 white Le Mans Sport coupes with GP Dashes out there, I do remember 1 in the late 80's in S/E Michigan. White car with Firethorn Interior with White Seats and a GP Dash, I looked at it but the price was not right, and the car had alot of rust and a non original 455 in it.

Never did any research on it, nor did I give it much thought about the GP Dash at the time. I had a 73-75 NASA hood at the time, and was looking for a car to put it on, the owner thought it would fit the 77, and when I realized it would not fit, that was the final issue that kept me from making an offer. So there must have been a few out there. But what are the odds some survived?

Mine has the outside hood release...it's mounted inside the bumper between driver side turn signal and license plate frame.

I did know it was a option, but I was sure if the Can Am out fit made them all in side hood release. (For the Grand am dash). My 76 has the hood release in the same place as your does Brian Baker.

The kick panels on all of the A bodies are identical. On the cars not optioned with T44, there is a hole in the kick panel where the hood release cable would otherwise be mounted. It looks rather tacky and unfinished.

On the kick panels that don't have the inside release cable there is a black plug or what ever color the panel is that plugs the hole that is stamped in them. If it didn't have one when you get the new or used panel you can usually get one from any firebird as they are in almost every bird. Then you don't see the hole left in them as much. You can also find the plugs at just about any hardware store in the nuts & bolts section usually. It will be a 3/4 inch hole plug.

I fixed the hole on my Can Am by installing a NOS cable assembly, and the rest of the small grommets/clips. This was a cost saving measure by GM by deleting content.

Not sure where you'd find that plug on 2nd gen birds. They didn't have holes or plugs in the kick panels, since none of them came with inside hood releases.

You will find them on the kick panels because the cars that didn't have A/C had the hole plugged where the floor vent handle would have been. I've seen a lot of the pugs in the 2nd gen birds where the cars didn't have A/C. It will be almost in the same place as a hood release would have been.

In what situation would a non-a/c 2nd gen bird have the fresh air vent knob holes plugged? Non-a/c cars should have functioning fresh air vent knobs filling those holes, since there's no a/c. And a/c cars use different kick panels and have no holes or provisions for vent knobs. So, it's hard to see how "they are in almost every bird".

The drivers kick panel on my Can Am has a plug in it where the inside hood release would normally be if it had that option.

Good to know, Brian. I have had a few non T44 cars, and none of them had the plug present.

I have seen them in some of the birds but I guess I don't know exactly why they were there then. But I have seen those type of buttons in birds. I also had a 76 Lemans that had those buttons in the kick panel , it was a very low optioned car . The reason I remember it so well is the interior was brown & the buttons were black.