Original water pump? Reuse, rebuild, replace?
 

As the 67 tempest slowly goes back together, I am finding that I have original parts that look rough but may be serviceable. This particular vehicle has a fresh stock rebuilt 326. It was purchased in non-op condition (so I don't know anything about the working condition of the pump). The water pump, while a little grungy, still looks fine and spins with no issues.

Is this something I can clean up, paint and reuse? Is there a rebuild kit? (not sure what would be rebuilt exactly) Or should I chuck it and get a new one?

Asking because I am on a tight budget and every penny counts while I'm trying to put her back together.

I can post pics if necessary.

Why take the risk if it's orig seal could be bad bearing could be bad I got mine from PY and it's just fine just make sure you clearance the separator plate does make a diff imho..

Please post pictures of the one you have. If it has a proper shape of the vanes on the pump, DON'T let it go, unless you give it to me!

Give me a shot like this so we can see what you have. A good one CAN be rebuilt.

Charles

And the only way you'll know it's good Boostmaster is to install it and run it. No other way to test it that I know of.

Gary Gary Gary....:)

Nothing sucks more than putting in a water pump to find out its not working. I got one from a friend for my old 66 about ten years ago when mine went out. Turns out that pump was bad too.

Ive heard of people rebuilding them. If Charles knows how, follow his direction. I always like to try and keep as many original parts as I can. Just fells better to me.

I know how, just never done it. BUT, Gary & I were just talking about it again and I've got a couple of old ones in the shop. Guess I'm going to go out there and press them apart and see about getting some bearings and seals for them.

Anyone know of a source?

Bearings I doubt I'll have trouble finding, got a damn good bearing shop in the oil field places down here in La. Seals are gonna take a bit of looking I bet.

Hey, that's what Ole Al invented the WWW for right?

There must be kits or someone doing it. Think of all the guys that want their original parts or some cars that there is no water pump replacements for.

Edit: a quick Google search https://www.google.com/#q=automobile...ump+rebuilders

That right there tells me the parts are available somewhere.

Here's a few pics.

Of course I would like to keep as much original stuff as possible and since the pump doesn't look too terrible, I figured I might save a few bucks just rebuilding it instead of replacing. (Not really worried about overheating as much as you big engine guys- my stock 326 is very meaty)

I would not use that pump. Impeller is aftermarket, sucks!
Overheat city. No contour to match plate. Inadequate flow.

Plates need to go, get them from In Line Tube. Proper contour.

Save yourself some heartache. Start looking now.

Which pump (on a budget) is ideal? I'd like to only do this once.

Thanks for the heads up on In Line Tube (ILT). I need to order one of their catalogs. Had never heard of them before!

Does ILT have a good waterpump?

Man, finding a good impeller is a real crap shoot. Best thing would be to find an original pump and swap the impeller over.

Interesting. I thought my pump was original. I guess not.
I will keep hunting for something decent.

So, should I avoid the offerings from local parts stores, PY, Ames, and OPGI, etc.?

Don't want to buy something that will be junk.

Just about everything you can buy out there is just that. Junk.

Especially more so the more expensive they are.

Well, crap! Now what?

I want to do this right. I don't want junk. I'm too deep into this resto for that. However, the goal is to be able to have the car running by May while, still maintaining some semblance of a budget. :gag:

LOTS of reading here.
http://www.forums.maxperformanceinc....d.php?t=411256

Just keep looking.

By budget, Im thinking you want something inexpensive? I dont know that costs come into play when buying a good quality water pump, but if you want to "do it right" than buy want you need not based on price.

Old Goat 67: I saw that post but didn't go too deep as I was thinking my pump would be fine... Now that I will need to source a new one, I will read it end to end!

Old Blue 66: I am always inclined to buy the best quality I can find but I'm suspicious of certain parts. Never understood why a $25 part should cost $100 and do the same thing. Will the $100 do a better job? Maybe. Maybe not. (Maybe it's marketing hype, maybe it's true quality) Since this is a vehicle that I am not familiar with nor have had much exposure to, I defer to the experienced individuals on this board.

Maybe I should put it this way: Knowing what you know today, IF you needed to replace your water pump, and needed to keep the price within reason (any price point is fine- just looking for a starting point), what would you put on your car?

Knowing what I know today, I would do just what I did. Find a correct impeller and either rebuild the whole unit or put the impeller on a reman pump.

They worked just fine back then and still do.

So, I'm several pages into the water pump thread. From what I gather, the cast impeller is the way to go... I'm having a hard time telling the difference in the pics (Not really sure what I'm looking for- never had much occasion to study water pumps) looks like Cardone may have had an answer? (I had scrolled a few pages forward and seen chatter about Cardone units.- their ad below states it's the NEW design)

Short of sourcing an original housing and cast impeller ...How about this unit? (It's cast) $43 @rockauto (If this won't do, where is it that one would source the CORRECT impeller)?

http://www.cardone.com/Products/Prod...5511137&p=rock

My thoughts exactly. I tend top lean towards -finding another pump with the correct impeller and having your current one rebuilt. There must be a ton of them out there. Post something in the wanted section. It doesn't even have to be a good pump.

Boostmaster, if you can find a local mom&pop parts store, see if they'll get a few in from Cardone. But it's another crapshoot on getting the right one in. I've tried here but no dice.

Cardone does have the Pontiac 8 bolt water pumps with the correct impeller.... but all of their stock is now in their warehouse in Dallas, TX. I could PM you their phone number up here in Philly and you could call them. Don't expect much, but it could be worth a shot. OR another long shot.... see if you can get Cardone's number in Dallas and call them. That number I'd like to have too. ;)

Looks great, HOWEVER, what you see is NOT what you get!

P.S. If you DO find one, let us all know! We've been searching for years.......

Well... we actually sort of did find them and know they are out there. But now we can't get them or get in contact with Cardone to get and/or find out how to get them. They never gave us a part number for the pump with the correct impeller.

I was thinking about this after I posted it. Is there any validity in this statement?? Im looking at a possible engine rebuild and might as well start looking now.

What I mean is this - if there is anything wrong with the water pump that I may buy, is there any reason why the rebuilder cold not use the impeller?

As I said before, GOOD SHAPED IMPELLER, get it!

So, let me see if I can clarify so I don't screw this up...

I need to find the correct impeller and this impeller can be pressed onto any housing?

The confusion I have is that while I'm looking at pictures of the various pumps, I see some differences but, I don't think I'm understanding what is meant by the "correct" impeller.

For example, I see the stamped units seem to be smaller and have a star shaped pattern. Then, I see the cast units like mine but, I'm told mine is no good... Is it because it's too small? Is it because it's a 6 vane as opposed to an 8 vane that I saw someone post (as OEM)?

Heck, I even checked ebay for a used unit (trying to find this elusive impeller) and they all had 6 vanes and looked a lot like mine.

What am I missing here?

Maybe some sample pics for reference? (They all kinda looks the same to me.)

Here's some of the stuff I'm finding locally: (prices range from $28 -$72)

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/par...er=318682_0_0_

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/web...ump#fragment-3

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/de...1398&ppt=C0331

http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Ca...122_0258172172

http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Ca...299_0131317870

http://www.amazon.com/Cardone-Indust...est+water+pump

It's the curve on the top of the vanes. For all the ones being sold from Cardone, the vanes were shaved flat until they were shown that there is a curve in the originals from Pontiac to match the cruve of the original divider plate. Yes stainless steel plates are sold but they do not match the curve of the originals and cause cavatation of the coolant.... not good and will not help the flow of the coolant. You must pound the living daylights out of the SS rear plate to get a match to the impeller curve and get the correct gap between the plate and impeller. It' close to impossilbe and ends up a mess. Pontiac never made the rear plate so it needed to be pounded on.

Here's a thread I started on the meeting Paul Spotts and I had with Cardone back on 3/3/2011......
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...hlight=Cardone

And go thru this section too....
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=411256

In it you will see the difference in the original steel rear plate Pontiac made versus the new and unimproved SS plates being made now. I personally do NOT recommend them, even tho others have used them and don't mind pounding on them. As long as you keep antifreeze in you cooling system the steel plates will last for years and years. And Inline Tube is selling repos of the original correct divider plates for the 8 bolt waterpumps. Who actually is making them I do not know.

One thing about all the suppliers you have links too..... They don't show a profile of the impeller from the side so you can see if there's a curve to the top of the impeller's vanes or if they are shaved flat. None of the ones you showed are correct just by looking at the number of vanes on the impellers. They're really only crap, and probably made in China. You couldn't give me one of any of them shown. You have to actually have one in-hand to see if it's correct and useable. Photos don't show crap.

BINGO.......
 

Finally..... I got thru to my contact at Cardone in Philly a few minutes ago, and something will be done on finding the part number for the 8 bolt waterpump with the correct cast impeller. Give it a few days as he will have to contact Cardone in Dallas so they can find these pumps in the warehouse.

My blood pressure has gone thru the roof, but it's all worth it if this comes thru for us all. :D

Curved top of the vane!!! OK now I understand. No wonder I couldn't see what you guys were talking about...

I guess I will hold on a few days to see what comes of this "new" development. If Cardone provides a good part number I'm happy to be the test mule and purchase one and shoot some pics for all to see... (I guess I'll also be ordering the proper plate from ILT as well)

I'm glad I asked the questions. Too much that I just don't know and that the "books" don't explain... Now, I'll need to start a thread on fuel pumps and ignition coils- (I have the old ones of those as well- I'm sure I need new. Not sure If I need OEM style or some fancy upgraded units to avoid "common" issues.):confused:

Just sent a very detailed email to Gary's contact in Cardone. We'll see how he responds and let you guys know.

Charles

When I changed my water pump out, I went to O'Rilleys auto parts and looked in their catalog at the Cardone pumps as they had to order one. I was able to get one with the correct impeller. The pump arrived the next day. I did bang a little on the original plates to get them a little closer. Everything has worked out so far, ran it all last summer with no problem. Didn't write down the part number. If you have an O'Rilleys where you live, you might want to go there and take a look. I printed out a picture of the impeller and brought it with me to make sure I didn't get the wrong (star shaped) one.

Here is the explanation I sent to cardone earlier.

Maybe it will help you to understand better.

Does that help?

Charles

Charles, so I understand the difference, the circles show whats missing from the bad impeller and the lines shows that the impeller is supposed to be taller?

The first pic in your post is rusty and I cant see the difference between the two. And what do yo mean by contoured veins?

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/i...ps5249923f.jpg

Your circles have nothing to do with it.

Look at the curvature of the tops of the vanes. See how they match the curvature of the plates? They are taller also because they have not been cut down flat.

Ok so the fins are taller, I get that. The fins cant be squared off they have to be rounded. Is this what Im missing?

Exactly. When they are flattened, they do not match the curve of the plates and therefore you have whats called cavitation. IE, water flows around the edge much more and is not moved the way it was engineered. IE, volume of water pushed is less and flow through radiator is less. Overheating.

Flattening the plate to match the flat impeller reduces the cavitation, but volume suffers.

Thank you. Now I understand.

Glad to help.

Theres a pump on my car thats not original and leaking. So thats why I had so much interest in learning.

Gary said this new guy at Cardone was really wanting to get this going again.
So, just maybe.....
I tried to tell him everyone is just dying to get correct pumps, maybe he'll get it going again.

Hang in there if you can, if you can't at least you know what to look for.

SO, it looks like the proper way to buy one of these is to first have the CORRECT backing plate from ILT and test whatever pump you can source (barring the Cardone unit coming through), right there on the parts counter!

Just looking at the pics posted the difference is not obvious without the plate installed. (at least it's not really apparent to me- the curved and flat vanes kinda look the same). The height, however, with the plate installed becomes more obvious.

That's what I did and was really lucky to find one out of seven pumps O'Reilly's had was correct!

So, I've gone ahead and called ILT this morning.
They had the divider plates as was mentioned earlier.

The part number for 69-77 model year is : INL11103 $11.00
Part number for 67 model year is: INL12846 $39.00

Shipping from MI to KY was over $12!

Total cost was $51.40!! (Seems a little steep considering the water pumps are probably cheaper but, I am deferring to the experts here and if this can save me the aggravation of fooling with a car that overheats, I guess it's worth the dough).

Once I can source a water pump I can post pics for all to enjoy!:usa2:

So, you're working on two cars?

Not bad, really.

No sir. I'm just working on the 67 Tempest and the 2 little plates were $51.40 with shipping.

I posted the other part number to make it easier for anyone wanting to find it...

When I checked ILT's online catalog yesterday, I could only find the p/n for the 69-77 part and since it was only $11 I figured it that the 67 p/n would be similarly priced. Unfortunately, that was not the case.

Anyway, figured posting might help some folks. (might have been cheaper to buy an INCORRECT plate from the vendors and pound it into submission! :)

Also, a slight addition here: Just saw this article. It's from 2009 so it's probably already been discussed but I saw no mention of it in the other "cooling" discussion.

http://www.highperformancepontiac.co...ystem_upgrade/

ok, 39 + 12, my bad.

Still, good as it gets.

Ames don't fit right and they're 49 + 18 ship?

Well, at least now I KNOW for sure that this part is CORRECT and all I need to do now is find the right pump and that will be one thing checked off the list that I won't need to worry about.

I'm presuming the water pump get painted the engine color as well?

Boostmaster, the divider plates from Ames are stainless steel and as far as I'm concerned they are crap. I tried to get Ames to have them made like the originals in stainless steel but their way of thinking is their SS plates are good enough. Not so. Have you ever tried to bend SS and have it look good with a perfect gap? Not me.

Even at a total cost of 51.00 from ILT that's a dam good deal for the correct plates. The only thing I'd do with them is paint them zinc chromate green.... if you can get it. Just a little added protection in case you use diluted antifreeze that's less than a 50/50 mix. ;)

"zinc chromate green"--- I'll see what I can find. (Looks like it only comes as a primer) Is this correct?

http://www.skygeek.com/skilcraft-so-...FcI-MgodU30AZg

Also, did you see the Pontiac article link I posted above? They mentioned a non aqueaous coolant for the Pontiac.

"Evans Cooling Systems in Sharon, Connecticut, has developed a coolant called NPG+ (nonaqueaous propylene glycol) that doesn't use water, never freezes, and doesn't boil until 375 degrees. It's also a lifetime coolant, so maintenance is eliminated once it's installed."

Read more: http://www.highperformancepontiac.co...#ixzz2ro0dP54G