Clones...
 

Used to own a couple of 1967 GTO's and a 1971 Ventura back in my street racing days. Want to get a musclecar again. Like the 1964 Tempest/Lemans but what is up with people that have a Tempest or Lemans, sticking a couple of GTO emblems on it and jacking the price up $10,000? Sorry, just venting...

I agree... I'm not a clone....so why should my car be????

It starts as people wanting their ride to look like the one they couldn't afford.

Then it blossoms into "Well, my car now has everything the real thing had, so I now consider it the same as a real thing, including the sale price".

Then you have the: "I got duped into paying for the real thing, and I don't want to take the monetary hit, so I'll pass on the fake mark-up to the next schmoe".

And it just escalates from there.

I imagine that it started much earlier, but for me I first started seeing it in the 80's, where kids would scour the junkyards for SS badges to slap on whatever Chevy they were driving.

Unfortunately, it the unscrupulous enthusiasts who give clones a bad reputation. Personally, I think clones are a great thing if you represent them for what they are. I have a 69 Lemans convertible that is nicely cloned into a carousel red Judge. Back in 1975, my dad came home with a carousel red 69 Judge convertible and that car made a hell of an impression on me as a 6 year old boy. When I was old enough and financially able to seek out a vintage muscle car to purchase, the carousel red 69 Judge vert was at the top of my list. When I began to search for one about 5 years ago, I found out that a man of my income was never going to own a real one, so I decided to look for the next best thing.....a clone.

Consider this...... there were only 108 69 Judge convertibles made. I am guessing that there is less than half of them left in existence. Many people that are fortunate enough to have the real deal won't drive them and some won't even show them for fear of something happening to their investment. How many young people today have even seen or heard of the 69 Judge convertible? Looking at pictures is one thing, but to see it, hear it and smell the tire smoke is what will make a lasting impression and keep the interest alive for the next generation. I can't begin to tell you how many young kids give me the thumbs up or approach me to ask about the car and tell me that they have never seen one of these before. Every time I stop for gas it is a 30 minute deal because someone always walks up to ask about the car or wants to take a picture. I am always honest with them and never try to represent the car as anything other that a Lemans, but they walk away knowing what a 69 Judge convertible is. I can tell you that my 6 year old son is every bit as enthusiastic about my clone as I was for the real deal my dad had. I would like to believe that the impression I make by exposing my clone to young people will provide real Judge owners a new group of potential investors. Lets face it......without demand, there isn't much value.

It's an odd position to be in. When people ask, do I say "it's a GTO" or "it's a LeMans" or "it's a LeMans that's cloned to look like a GTO" etc. Think about it, most people asking have no idea what a clone is other than a sheep created in a lab experiment.

Having just purchased a clone, I haven't decided how to respond to the casual gas station crowd questions. To the car cruise crowd, of course, it's a clone ;-)

I loved my `68 LeMans, in part BECAUSE it was a LeMans.

Anyway, I bought the car because it's a REAL car! It's fully restored, built to run and have fun. So in that sense, it's "real." I almost wish my friend who built it didn't clone it, or at least didn't put back on the LeMans louvers on the rear quarters so it wasn't so obvious to the pros. LOL

I have considered buying a 1965 GTO for some time now. Would probably have to spend at least 25,000 for a nice one. Just found a 65 GTO clone that looks really good for only 6,000. Might just spend 1/5 less and just enjoy it.

Sometimes I wish my Expedition was an Excursion. I wish emblems would make the difference.

Mine still proudly wears its LeMans and 326 badges (despite the engine upgrade - or it will again once the paint dries next week.) In casual conversations, I'll just say it's a GTO since that's a name people are familiar with. (a lot of people have forgotten what a LeMans / Tempest, etc. is.)

I say just call it what it says on the quarter panel. It's not that big a deal - unless you're trying to sell it as "the real deal."

I remember Import guys going the other way and putting "Honda" emblems on their Acuras as early as the late '80's.

I just got a 72 Lemans with the factory endura front end. If I get the "is it a real GTO or a clone" question, I'll tell them it's a GTO cloned to be a Lemans.

One of mine is getting ready to hit the road as a clone....Should be a relief after 22 years of explaining to people that it isn't a GTO. Now I'll just smile and nod.

I even got that with my '67 4 dr Tempest I used to drive for a work car. People always called it a GTO and kids always trying to trade me their Honda for it.

When asked just say it's a Pontiac :).

When I was 16 I bought a 65 LeMans for $295..coupe months later I bought a 65 GTO for $50..it had been on fire..SO the 389 the 4 speed, the posi, hood, and everything else I could save went on the LeMans...that was in 1976...sold that car in about 1979-80 for $1600 and the guy knew it was a clone..He didnt care,,,he wanted it..and $1600 was a lot of money for one of these cars in 79-80

I like it.
:first:

Its a "LeGoat".

I prefer to call it "LeGTO" myself. It's French ;-)

I'm cloning my Judge to look like a standard GTO.

The PC term is "tribute".

I have the perfect 71 clone Trans Am vehicle (or Formula). It is my 71 Esprit, Cameo white and has gauges. I am even selling my extra Formula hood, resisting that addition.

I think it will be vastly cooler having a 455 with factory dual snorkel air cleaner (just bought a nice 70 with chrome top), T400, 12 bolt posi (with for me preferred highway gears), and big early sway bars, all hidden under a flat hood car. So I am sort of cloning everything you CAN'T see! Reverse of macho visual stuff. High Performance Touring Machine! Only visual cues will be 15" honeycombs (upgrade from 14" ones now) and I can't resist adding the TA / Formula baloney exhaust tips. Oh and every bird I get always gets a Formula steering wheel.... but that is a correct option on any bird.

I may even put a correct dealer option luggage rack on the thing!

My car started life as a gold 71 Esprit :gag:

Now its a 73 455 T/A clone..... So I can do whatever I want with it and not worry about ruining a real T/A. :D

I'm not a fan of clones in this hobby!

For the record, I'd be very proud to drive a `64 LeMans. Just like I was proud of my `68 LeMans. My 68 did have a GTO hood and rear spoiler. Both of which were on the car when I bought it and I thought they looked great.

My dilemma is that my new car is already a clone, so when people ask, what's the comfortable reply?

I think I've actually answered my own question. Which actually, is technically correct for a `64... it's a LeMans! Because in `64, they were all LeMans, weren't they?! LOL
:car:

Take your average guy in the 60's. Offer him a stock 389 tripower gto or a lemans with a 421 super duty in it. the guy takes the lemans every time. i do not know what happened between then and now, but a guy out burning rubber in his hot rod lemans is a heck of a lot more true to the original ethos of a GTO then a guy organizing his date-coded plug wires for his gto and never driving it.

Of course we'd take the SD 421 LeMans over a 389 GTO. How about a SD 421 GTO, though? I'd take that over a LeMans of any type.

Not driving our old Pontiacs has nothing to do with GTO vs. LeMans. The ones that are trailer queens give the owners a different kind of thrill than driving one.

I'll take the thrill of driving my GTO over looking at it in storage or on a trailer anytime. How about the guys that race their old Pontiacs and have modified them so they can no longer be driven on the street?

To each his own. It's not for us to judge how to enjoy our old Pontiacs---or any other old car!

I like driving them like they were meant to be driven.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Vk7OlLcqu4

When I bought my 66 convertible it had the GTO badges and hood. I knew that when I bought it but liked the car. Most people only remember the GTO and I tell them them it's a LeMans and most people have a puzzled look on their faces.

It was interesting watching the BJ auctions and the commentators comments on the cars. These guys are real car collectors and know their way around the car business. Their comments are that it's "a car that has been transformed, cloned to a ----------. That's alright as long the seller discloses that fact". As much as the purist doesn't like it, and I, also, agree with it but a hobbyist wants what he wants. Look at the real deal 32 Fords. The new reproduction steel 32"s are peaking the interest of very many hobbyists.

To each their own, sure. I don't have any beef with guys organizing their plug wires by date code. What does bother me is guys looking down on cars that don't have the right pedigree. A Lemans on the road beats a GTO in the garage 7 days a week in my book.

I don't see a problem with clones. As long as you're not listing your clone on eBay as a number's matching Judge.

Not all of us can afford the $40-$50K to buy a restored 66 GTO tri-power 4 speed. If a guy is spending say $15-$20K on a clone and he's enjoying it that's fine with me.

When I'm discussing my car with people I simply say that I have a 68 Firebird. It's only when talking with car people that the conversation turns to whether my car is all original or not. The guy giving me a thumb's up when I take it out on a Saturday night doesn't care if my car is original or not he just likes seeing a cool car.

I see nothing wrong with a LeJudge.... As long as it's not misrepresented; especially when it's time to sell.

Not exactly. In '64 & '65 there was the plain Tempest, the Tempest LeMans, and the Tempest LeMans with the GTO option.

:rain:

Replica, clone, tribute, recreation its all the same right.

Just bustin ya balls.

I don't mind the clones either. But I do mind when a guy says it's 100% real & then when you confront him/her with the facts & say what gives. Then the guy/girl gets mad at you & tells you your full of sH1t when you can see that it's not real. The one I'm talking about is a 72 LeMans convertible that was put together by a friend of mine. He pasted away & it sold in his estate sale. The guy turned up at our local cruise & tried to tell us all that the car was an original 72 GTO convertible with the 455 HO engine in it. The car in reality was/is a 72 LeMans with a 350 that my friend installed all the parts on it to make it up as a 72 conv. It even has a buick rear spoiler on it & the kid says it was on there from the factory. I tried to explain to him that I helped Steve build this car , but he just got mad & left the cruise. Thats the kind of car I don't like, or should I say the guy who tried to convince others of the lie.

Thats terrible.

My Dads 69 Camaro has Yenko stripes on it. People ask all the time if its a real one, even after they see the lq4 under the hood. It makes me laugh. Sometimes I'll say its real just to have them ask why we would modify a real Yenko.:D

i agree 100%. i cant stand the terms "clone, tribute, replica, dedication" types for these cars..it has cheapened the hobby and fooled many folks into buying a car that is misrepresented--especially when you cannot get PHS documents for. i think really it all comes down to $--people do it that cant afford a real one (not that i agree with the inflated prices of real ones) and clone their cars so they can command big money when it comes time to sell it. id rather have a ratty real GTO or SS chevelle than a mint clone. id be embarassed and have no street cred with my car buddies if i had a clone.

Again I don't mind the clones if your doing it for your own & it's not for profit so you can sell it at an inflated profit. If it's not real & your dressing it up for yourself thats fine it's your car but don't do it to sell it for more............. Also on the side track but kinda on the same vane. I get tired of some,,,,,,, mostly younger guys in their late 20's to late 30's come up to me & say GTO ????? I didn't know Pontiac even made a GTO in 73. Then when you say yes they did, & also in 74. I've had guys want to argue with me & say things like most that are less intellegent say Pontiac stopped making real GTOs in 72 didn't they. Then you ask them when did they make GTOs & they will say UH ??? Well from 1964 to 1972, tose were the real GTOs. Thn you get to burst their little bubble & tell them that the 64-5 & 72-73-74 were only options on the LeMans except for the 74 which was on the Ventura body. They always look at you like your the one who is no so........ People........ sometomes are so STUPID. Even when they think they know for sure. Those are the ones that yell the loudest.

Is the camaro a clone of the firebird or is the firebird a clone of the camaro? Inquiring minds want to know...

Well depending on who you talk to the Camaro was first but in reality the Firebird was first, in development. Becaue of Ford coming out with the Mustang in 64 1/2 Chevy got the nod to build the Camaro first. But the Firebird had been in development since 1962 with several different code names. At one time most know that it was going to be called the Banshee , but during the test phase fro teh name the term Banshee was looked down on because term was thought of as bad becasue how the church looked at it . The name was scraped. The name Firebird was also down on the list but it di make it through. Now the Camaro was also the cheap end like all the Chevys were/are. The Firebird got a better suspension as it got bigger sway bars & it also got stiffer springs that were 1 inch lower then the Camaro. John D. was directly involved with the design of the way it handled & because he was made to wait until after the Camaro was unvailed before he could build & sell the Firebird he was goign to make it BETTER then the Camaro in almost every way. Thats why the Firebids ride & handling is better then the Camaro, & has better interior appointments. So really the Camaro & Firebird are twin sisters just one was born a few min's early then the other. And one was much prettier then the other too. (we know which one)

I'm impressed rex, and now we now how the term came to be: " A camaro is nothing more than the poor mans firebird" My next question is how did a small block chevy end up in my 81 Trans Am?

who cares? buy, build and drive whatever you want however you want. what difference will it make when you're dead? Have fun!

I wanted a nice car to drive, and I mean DRIVE, and tinker with, modify, etc. The rest is semantics I suppose.
(And we all agree fraud is bad.)

[QUOTE=zeebo;5129817]i agree 100%. i cant stand the terms "clone, tribute, replica, dedication" types for these cars..it has cheapened the hobby and fooled many folks into buying a car that is misrepresented--especially when you cannot get PHS documents for. i think really it all comes down to $--people do it that cant afford a real one (not that i agree with the inflated prices of real ones) and clone their cars so they can command big money when it comes time to sell it. id rather have a ratty real GTO or SS chevelle than a mint clone. id be embarassed and have no street cred with my car buddies if i had a clone.[/QUO

So are all the people driving they're AC Cobra clones or 32 Ford clones,replicas,tributes embarassed and worried about street cred?I don't think so.I don't think it cheapens the hobby one bit.There is room in the car hobby for the purist and the hobbiest that like to make there car perform and look the way the want.If someone is going to spend big bucks on a car purchase do your homework.

Gerry, I don't know about your car but most of the cars that came with the chevy or olds engines were ment for CA. The Pontiac 301 was the only real Pontiac engine in 81 & some were afraid of that engine. I don't know why as it was a good engine but some did shy away from it & ordered the chevy engine instead. I wouldn't have.

I agree! To each his own. That's what I love about hobbies/cars/etc. Expression. Individualization. etc.

And HAVING FUN with them. For some, that fun is the challenge of hunting down all the parts required to restore a car to factory specs. for some it's cleaning them to concours levels (and then not driving them for fear of getting them dirty)

I like to tinker and putter with them, and then DRIVE them!
:focus:

From what I've been reading it was also the only way you could get a 4 speed in 80/81 which to me seems odd. This is a 4 speed car.

[QUOTE=73T/A;5129954]i dont have a beef so much with the ac cobras and the 32 fords as they are completely repopping the entire body/chassis now, so its almost like new production vehicles, and they are titled as such. those owners arent trying to make their vehicles into something that they are not. where i have the biggest beef is the cloning of musclecars--misrepresenting a lemans to be a ram air 4 judge, etc...its done for the money that can be made----and doing your homework sometimes doesnt even help. for instance, a little while back in hemmings motor news, a guy purchased a bogus LS6 chevelle, but only after finding out that the seller actually doctored the build sheet on the internet! he had purchased a restored LS5, doctored the paper work, then resold it for a huge profit. i believe the only way the buyer knew was someone at a car show pointed it out to him...its a scary world when there is a ton of $ to be made on cars with phony badges/stripes.

No 80 & 81 you could get a 4 speed with the 301. Just no more 400's ever.

'79 you could get the 400 or a 301 with a 4 speed. '81 you could only get a 305 sbc with a 4 speed.

Its hard to hide a clone in the Pontiac world, so I wouldn't worry about it so much.

I have no problems with a cloned car, but it needs to be pretty darn close to the original. Correct engine, trans, wheels, trim package, etc...
If it's just got some badging it's just a car with incorrect badging. If the seller wants to call it a clone, that's his right, but a true clone you should have to run the Vin plate and body tag to tell the difference.

The Tribute moniker is fine for rebadged custom creations that well, pay tribute to the original, but don't pretend to be one.

For the most part yes, but there are some unscrupulous individuals out there that are being creative with swapping VIN tags and whatnot. Heck, wasn't there an ebay seller that was hawking GM style VIN tag rivets a while back?

Having the PHS is a great tool, but it's not a failsafe one.