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tracking down a VIN
Hi Guys,
I've been trying to find my dads '65 GTO with no luck. I don't have the VIN and trying to find it,but I keep hitting a dead end. Heres what i did so far..... 1) I wrote to NJDMV (FYI the car was bought new in NJ, titled by my dad in NJ from 1965-1969, and I still live in NJ). I have pictures of the original plate with the number from 1965. NJ DMV doesn't keep records that far back. 2) I contacted the insurance company that would of insured from that time period, again they don't keep records back that far. 3) I tried contacting GTOAA with no response. Is there any other way to track down info? FYI. I know the selling dealers name and dealership code number and options and a 3 month window of purchase time. Is there a way of searching dealer sales? Any info would help, Thanks jeff chmura |
Without the VIN I don't think you will find it.
I assume the dealer is long out of business. There was a guy here that had sales records from his family's dealership from back in the '60s as I recall. What he had was way cool and extremely rare IMO. But unless you can locate a former owner and on the extremely unlikely chance that they kept the old sales records, that is just another dead end. If you won the lotto and wanted to spend it on PHS records, you could purchase thousands of PHS records and try to find it by matching a record to what you do know. Most likely a '65 sold in NJ was built at the Pontiac or Baltimore Plants, but even in a 3 month period, that is probably over 100,000 records to sift thru. PHS won't be able to help in the search, they will only send you the requested VIN records. The '65 Billing History Cards show the dealer code, but PHS can't search the records by dealer code, only by VIN. You say you contacted GTOAA and got no response. If you join GTOAA and also POCI, I believe you can run a classified in both publications seeking info about a car you are trying to find. Most doing this post the VIN of a car they'd like to have back. In your case, you would be asking about a GTO identified only by the original selling dealer and code and a description of the car. If the car still exists maybe somebody would recognize it. Do you have any good pictures of it? I'm afraid you are very unlikely to discover the VIN. You already pursued the two best possibilities, DMV and the Insurance Co. Both may actually have records archived but even if they did, they aren't going to expend resources to sift thru them helping you find what you want. But I would suggest posting pix of the car and as complete a description of it as you know right here at PY. Perhaps somebody will know of it. By the early '70s, '65 GTOs were selling for a few hundred bucks (living in south Jersey I paid about $150 for a '64 GTO convertible from the original Phila dentist owner in '73) and suffered a lot of abuse at the hands of young drivers like me that bought them cheap and drove 'em hard. If it was being eaten up by NJ road salt, might not have celebrated its 15th birthday. If it survived the '70s, it is more likely to still exist, by 1980 the GTO was already widely viewed as collectible and starting to appreciate in value. One other thought. Contact/join the NJ state chapters of GTOAA and POCI. If the car remained in NJ, local guys are more apt to recognize it by pictures and description. Good luck! |
Agree w John V
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LOST & FOUND (NEW)Several ads are posted in that section with color pix of cars people are trying to find, like you. http://poci.org/ "Test Drive the Smoke Signals Magazine" |
This is a long shot in the dark.
Some states/counties/towns tax automobiles as personal property and records are maintained for many, many years. It may be that if you could dig up your father's personal property tax records for 65-69, the records may provide the VIN number for the car. |
Hi John,
thanks for all the good advice. I did try going to DMV with the plate number from 1965, but DMV records don't go back that far, Same with insurance company. Its a shame theres no other way to search through dealership records. This car was burgandy, with AM/FM,vibra-phonic,metallic brakes/aluminum brake drums with ultra rare electronic ignition,(and a few other options,but the ones I listed should stand out) sold in early '65 at a small dealership in hightstown NJ,(Walter Kollmer) can't be too many sold there in that time frame. If this dealer sold 16 GTO's in a 4 month period, .......I'm guessin maybe 2 would have the electronic ignition option, one would be the one I'm looking for I do have a posting in the lost and found in these fourms. I have thought about joining the NJ chapter, but at the present time, I don't have a car, and more than likely, I'm going to end up cloning a le mans, not sure how folks would take that over there. Thanks Jeff |
Hi Alvin,
I don't have pictures, but I have some 8MM home movies of the car converted to DVD. I'll have to try to capture a picture and post it. I also agree that asking for info from the dealer records, but the way I'm thinking is that if its still out there, someone would of did a PHS on it, and would see the dealer info and some of the options and say, "Wow, thats sounds like the one I have...." Thanks Jeff |
Heres a description of the car....Things I know of
1965 GTO Hardtop Burgandy (N code) Black interior Rally gauges console 4 speed close ratio 3.90 posi tripower AM/FM radio vibra-phonic (reverb) metallic brake linings aluminum brake drums electronic ignition Deluxe hub caps Traded it in in about 1969-1970 for a 1968 427 vette.. This car was bought at Walter Hollmar Pontiac, Hightstown NJ in either late '64 or early '65 Car changed hands about 4-5 times until the the mid to late '70's when was bought by a friend of a friend of my Dad and I was told that "car was pretty ratted out" at that time.I don't know if he ment tired,rusty or both. He sold it in late 70's He has no other info about the car either. If someone has any info on this car, please contact me. Thanks Jeff |
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FWIW From the GTOAA GTO ID Guide's Pg 17 1965 "Options and Accessories" this: Sales code no. 671 | U.P.C. code no. K66 | Description Transistor Ignition (w/582* or w/o 582*)Hope this helps. Keep us posted. |
Hi Alvin,
From what I understand, the electronic ignition option for these was quite rare. It was more popular on the chevy models than on the Pontiac. They were problematic too from what I understand. My Dad told me that the end of the spark plugs would burn off after 3000 miles and when it was damp outside, under the hood looked like a Christmas light show. He ended up putting a Mallary dual point distrubutor in. I would think that that one option alone would stand out more. There can't be too many out there. I'm going to try to get a picture from the 8MM and post it. Jeff |
Hi Doug,
thanks for the info. New Jersey doesn't keep records like that. Thanks Jeff |
With the trail on the car disappearing in the late '70's, described as "pretty ratted out," the chances are pretty good, unfortunately, that the car no longer exists - as most of them don't. If you do find the needle in the haystack and track down the car - the chances are pretty good that it is not for sale.
I know it's not what you want to hear, but buying another is your best bet. As for cloning a Le Mans - the local Pontiac guys shouldn't look down on it. (They wouldn't out here.) If they do; screw them. Or... you could just keep it a Le Mans... They are rare to see on the streets now. :) |
Have you checked around in old files or boxes to see if there's any documentation still existing for your dad's old car? My parents admittedly were packrats, but in the course of cleaning out the house after they passed we found registration cards, loan papers, etc. for pretty much every car my dad ever owned, going all the way back to a '32 Ford he bought in 1937. :)
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Talk about looking for the needle in the haystack.....
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i feel your pain. see my signature..
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Do these stripes look familiar?
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From your description I was wondering if mine was a match.
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Jeff, in my experience with '64s, Transistor Ignition option was very uncommon.
The close ratio 4 spd (special equipment option sales code 778) was also very uncommon, a lot of guys believed their 3.90 axle GTO got the close ratio when they were actually equipped with the wide ratio in most instances. You had to order tripower and 3.90 axle to get the close ratio approved but not all tripower/3.90 GTOs were ordered with the close ratio, the close ratio was not mandatory for that combination, if you ordered the 4 spd but not the close ratio, they built it with the sales code 779 wide ratio. I don't think you could order the Aluminum Front Drums (sales code 694) together with the Metallic Brake Linings (special equipment option sales code 692). The 3.90 axle required Safe-T-Track and Metallic Brake Lining options to get approved. The metallic brake linings "liked" heat. The object of the aluminum drums was to better dissipate heat. That is why it would not make sense to include both. Aluminum drum option was not offered in '64 (my main area of interest) so I have no references to readily check but one of the '65 experts should know if I am correct that you were not allowed to order 694 and 692 together. If you could comb thru the PHS records I'm certain you could find the record for your Dad's car. Since you know the dealer code, color, and TI as an option, finding the matching record would only be a matter of the time. Regrettably, although many of us would love to have access to the PHS records, that just isn't a service they offer. :( |
Hi all,
Thanks for all your help!! I posted in ther lost section about 2 years ago finding this car and nothing came back just recently, I asked in this section, and WOW.. alot for responses. Thanks again guys. OK... John, your car wouldn't be it. The rear ratio is not the same. My Dad ordered 3.90's, plus I am leaning toward his being built in Baltimore or Pontiac as he lived in NJ. I wouldn't rule out KC being the UAW strike then though... Stuart, Everyone in my family that I could of asked more questions about this car are gone now. I did contact my aunt (Dads sis) who handled the estate stuff and off the top of her head, she hasn't came across anything, but she said she will keep her eyes open. Chris.. I'm leaning more towards the cloning thing because I feel that the car didn't survive too, but it would be nice to know for sure, plus I could get the PHS and see exactly what my Dad ordered. Some things I would change to make it more drivable (like the 3.90 gear and converting to front disc brakes) and I would feel better altering a clone than original Thanks Jeff |
Hi John,
The way my Father explained it, I take it as the metallic brake linings were in the rear, which would go with the 3.90 gears. 99% sure it was safe-t-track The front had the aluminum drums. Maybe he wanted to order them and couldn't, but he did tell me those two things. no doubt he ordered the transistor ignition, I had the distributor in my hand (then lost it through the years!!) and he told me the story of why its not in the car (see other posts) and how there "was this big box mounted to the inner wheelwell with 2 big cables coming from it" that powered it. This is where the PHS would be handy for me , then I have the knowledge of how his car was ordered so I can build something close Thanks Jeff |
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to get an idea of what can done... |
Got alittle more info today....
Talked with Mom, she remembers Dad ordered ther car after they graduated (June '64) with that said, I know the '65 wasn't avail until after mid september '64, so being he special ordered the car, I figure 6-10 weeks lead time, he should of got it in either October or November '64 making it an early VIN. Also, while talking with my Mom, I told her about the family friend who owned it in the 70's. She called her cousin who is friends with him and told him I'm looking for the car and I'm looking for info. We'll see what turns up..... Another thought.... If my Dad got a ticket in the car, wouldn't I be able to see his drivers abstract and pull the ticket up? That would have the cars info on it. Thanks Jeff |
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Hi Ben,
been a while since I got one, but the more I think about it, your right,they usually put your DL number and the cars plate number on them. I actually have the plate number from Dads 1965.... the problem is the records don't go back that far so I can't trace it..... it was a thought... Thanks Jeff |
Jeff, agree the ticket would be a dead end but good that you still have some avenues to pursue.
On the timing of the order, not sure when PMD started accepting orders for the '65. The '64 remained in production until the very end of July '64. Production of the '65 began toward the end of August and the Dealers began receiving inventory shortly after that. But the Dealers were not officially allowed to deliver them to retail customers until on or about Sept 21, '64. A Dealer may have cheated a day or two, but unlikely more than that. GM got hit by a nationwide UAW strike on Sept 25 and that strike dragged on for about 38 days. Plants resumed production at different times, but around the 2nd week of Nov IIRC for most. It is possible that your Dad could have had his order entered as soon as PMD started accepting orders for the '65s. That might have been in July but I am not at all sure. But it might not have been built until after the strike was settled. Or it could have been built or in the process of getting built but not delivered to the dealer until after the strike was ended. I take it you don't know exactly when your dad took delivery? Either way, sounds like it was probably built before the New Year. That narrows it down some, but without access to PHS records, you're still left with hoping somebody has the car today and will recognize the description of it. Or you'll get lucky and somebody will come across some paperwork that shows the VIN. The '64 GTO convert that I bought in '73 I eventually "abandoned". Long story how I gave that car up, but my parents would have had the NJ Title for it in their files. Unfortunately, by the time I gave it any thought, my mom had pitched it. I've often wondered if the car still exists but like you, I don't know the VIN. I also have the plate no. for it and even the original keys, but never tried to contact my insurance co. or the NJDMV to see if I could rediscover the VIN. About 6 or 7 years ago, I accidentally came across the loan paperwork for the '73 TA that I bought in '78. It had the VIN and my sister who worked for an insurance co. at the time was able to track down the current owner and I got to talk to him about my 2 year ownership of the car. Sadly, it was in very rough shape. This past summer he called me wondering if I was interested in buying it. If it had been even close to the condition it was in while I owned it, I would have bought it. But it isn't so I passed. |
Hi John,
thanks for the info. When I talked with my Mom, She remembers him getting it in the fall or early winter. He had it for his 19th b-day (Jan 13th) Here in NJ,I sent a letter to DMV using the plate number, they don't have records going back 40+ years. I contacted the insurance company that the family has been using for over 60 years, They don't go back that far either. Heck, when I was digging through some stuff,I came across the policy from 1957! nothing from '65 though The family friend who owned the car in the 70's is going to check for me. maybe i'll get lucky there. Its too bad there isn't a way to access dealer sales records or plant production records. I can get this car down to being built and purchased within a 6 month window, and with the options that I know he ordered, I'm sure it wouldn't be a big list of cars to check. thanks Jeff |
many '65's here in south jersey.
matt ritter on here has at least 3 65's and his father collects also. i'm sure he has viewed many 65's, maybe he has seen your dad's car? I think he's mritter on here; i'll check the members list. edit: It's Mwritter. |
Hi, I sent him an e mail. Thanks for the help, Jeff
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It would be awesome if PHS could filter searches by dealer, color, engine, etc. I am looking for my dads 68 HO GTO that I came home from the hospital in when I was born. No VIN and lots of dead ends.
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It would be cool if they did, but I would think it would be alot of work for PHS to search. Its more cost effective to put in a series of numbers and get 1 hit in return (aka VIN) then it would to be to search a burgandy lemans for 1965 and narrow from there.
Thanks Jeff |
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