incompetence
 

Sorry but it's time to rant.
It's getting really really old that I have to explain to customers and friends that the parts that they just bought or had machine work done is F`d up and they have to spend more money to fix it. After countless cylinder heads that look like the seats were cut by monkeys with sea shells to the perfect good 1967 YT block that was turned into a chunk of useless cast iron destined for the scrap heap.
This is a prime example of the latest in modern butchery.
1.When installing heli coils one should make sure the hole is at least the correct angle before proceeding and most professionals would do in a milling machine not a hand drill after huffing some paint out of a brown paper bag. Also the heli coils should go down a few threads so they don't start unraveling.
2. When you want to use some sort of block filler use some known brand that has been used before. Drywall joint compound does not double as a block fill or whatever this garbage is.
3. Typical hardware store bolts may be ok in some situations , but not so good when you are threading them into the crooked a $$ heli coils for the main caps.
4. 80 grit sanding disks are not the best thing to clean the deck surface with.
5. You seriously think that someone wasn't going to notice the repair on #3 main where the welding looks like an ocean sponge.
If you don't know you better ask someone

Happy new year

Wow! Is that an IA block?

Ahh geez, I better pull out my "bag 'O miracles" for this one! These, buying someone else's rebuilt engine deals, rearly work out good. Oh, but it was a good deal, right?

Sorry dude. After the "monkeys with sea shells" comment I couldn't hold it together very well - laughing with tears in my eyes.

I've done a little bit of backyard hillbilly BS on occasion, but I don't get that kind of stuff on higher dollar hardware.

If I saw that kind of stuff on a run of the mill Chevy 305 from an 83 Camaro, I would just shake my head a little and say "wow". My jaw drops that it was done on an IA block.

Paul will be casting some serious "Gandalf" spells on that one. And yes, I just saw the latest "Hobbit" movie tonight, so I went full Tolkien.

angle/smangle....where's the impact gun?

Some folks just need to have their fingers broken with their own wrenches.

:pound:

You get what you pay for. I'm always amazed at how often I hear "I hired the cheapest guy I could find, and I can't believe he screwed up!"

Finding a shop with the equipment and staff necessary to turn out quality work is a real challenge. I thought maybe it was just this area of the country, but apparently not.

The shop you choose to do work work for you should have copy's of a list of names and phone numbers of 10 reference that a person can call!
Some times even shops that do near pro stock level work night and day can screw up, but all that crap to take place on one motor may be a near record?

LOL

1. Just because there is a post or a youtube video of how to do something does not mean anyone can do it successfully or should try. 2. Any engine I get in that has failed and been "rebuilt" by an unknown shop you have to assume EVERYTHING is wrong. It's usually worse than starting with a decent used core. Believe me I could add to your list! If the sea shell comment isn't copyrighted, I have lots of use for it. Classic.

This IA was from back east somewhere. I deal with stuff that comes from all over the country. Sad to see people buy parts that supposedly all done and ready to run when that's the farthest thing from the truth.
Buyer beware
On a positive note
Paul will have to get out the big mop to mop up this mess, but I know it will get done correctly. I have 3 engines and a few sets of heads that are spot on to prove it.

Steve
I can walk into a shop and in 2 minutes tell if they will be doing work for me or not, if you know what I'm saying.
And i do have my own set of machinist tools to double check everything.

Exactly! I much prefer a virgin engine to work on. These rebuilt engine deals, always seem to be screwed up bad. That's usually why the person is selling it in the first place. If it was a good piece, they would have asked a lot of money for it. If it sounds, too good to be true, believe me, it is! No-one gives away good sh*t for next to nothing.

It's not too late. Aluminum is .93 cents a pound right now :D

:D :rolleyes: :D

Well, you have to keep in mind that there is a particular amount of risk when buying a used, assembled engine, and because of that, it impacts the price fairly drastically. So it's not always a too good to be true thing. You just have to know what you're looking at and what to look for. (Which is obviously the tough part)

.

And that is one reason I chose a machine shop that knows what their doing for the machine work. I do the assembly myself even though I'm no expert. The engine in my GTO has been gone through by me three times and even though it uses a little oil now still runs strong for what it is and is dependable, over 130K miles and drag strip usage also.

This was #7 & #8 rods from an engine that some shop built. #7 cap was installed the wrong way which ruined 2 rods and the crank. if you can belive it this was the least of the problems the engine had.

that's legitimately bad!

I guess when you live out WEST things can only come from the EAST
When I lived in Texas everyone came from the North.

Stock rods and Block fill in an IAII? I think the builder and the buyer must be related somewhere down the line.

I think there is more going on here then we're hearing.

No stock rods were in this engine. The 5140 Tomahawk rods in the earlier post were from another engine.

Calling this block fill is an insult to block filler.
More like joint compound

I'm thinking more like somebody emptied their ash tray into some Elmer's glue, and dribbled it in.

Need a little education on this. What would be the purpose of filling an IA Block to begin with? Even if it was the best filler available, it adds lots of weight, none of the fillers EXACTLY match the expansion rate of the block and the IA block already has 40+ lbs of extra iron in it? Our shop only fills a block that is destined to fail without it. Cylinder walls are never as round and straight once a block is filled, even when honed carefully with plates. I am open to learn some advantage I am missing. We have always used filler as a band-aid for weak blocks.

From my understanding (hope some will correct me if I'm wrong) is to help strengthen the bottom end around the mains and to help elliminate core shift.

Yes it adds strength and keeps the cylinders round.
If someone filled a block then waited the appropriate time before bore and honing a block and it was not round when they were done, did they really do it properly?
My factory iron block that was filled and has 1300+ runs on it is still .0001 top to bottom and 180 degrees in all cylinders.

i feel your pain, ive never been able to find anyone around me, that could press new pistons on my pontiac rods right the first time, after years of this **** i gave up, i buy floating rods and pistons now for everything.

I pay almost NO ONE to work on my stuff any more. Life is too short. I can screw it up a whole lot cheaper than paying someone else to do same. I'm doing the floating piston/rod deal also...because
I own a boring bar, and valve grinding equipment, and know how to use them, not an expert mind you.
Had a real machinist (not automotive type)show me how to use them, a person w/ rare talent these days (him, not me....LOL)
Have a couple of auto machine shops I plan to use for other stuff, in future, just need to get these things done!!!

Amen, brother.

This was true even back in the day (1970s) when Pontiacs were very popular. Fortunately, H-O Racing had the services of Kern's precision tool & die company which had a microflat table and could measure virtually anything to withing 0.0005 or better. He rejected more than one thing from a supposedly reputable, nationally known shop.

There are great shops out there, but not easy to find. A few tips. The shop MUST have an actual track record. If it is a race shop and you are going to be paying your hard earned cash for work, you should find out who out there is wining races, holds national records, and has won series championships with their engines. You have every right to know approximately what the work should cost but going into the shop with a cost cutting attitude will almost guarantee low quality work and unhappiness down the road. I like to see a head machinist or owner who is at least in his late 30's or early 40's. Nothing against youth, but you can't become a master machinist from the internet, or going to ANY school! And I teach this stuff. School can get you to a responsible level as a machinist but experience is the best teacher. Finally, you MUST be comfortable with the people who are handling your prized Pontiac hardware. If they treat it like it's just "another boat anchor" don't leave it there.

Yes and no
Guy I used in NY was not really well known but to a select few. He was anal as they come and double checked and triple checked his own work. It's one of those rare cases of the work taking longer than it should but it's not because he is jerking you around or putting it on the back burner it's because he actually cares about what he is doing and wants to do it right. Cost is not an issue to me for this level of work.
That's difficult to find.

I should have included that word of mouth recommendations that can be verified are also very valuable. I also agree with you that the size of the shop is not important. The shop I work with has 2 employees. The owner and the master machinist. The newest piece of equipment is probably from the 1980's. But typically at a division 3 drag race, they will have 10 to 30% of the top 50 qualifiers in stock and super stock. Quality machining does take time as you mentioned. It typically takes them 6 hours machine time to oversize and plate hone a V-8. Someone has to pay for that time.

I still say there should be a national database where IDIOTS like the ones who performed this abortion should have to register.

Paul,

Better get the Cummins repairs out. Those heli-coils like nasty.

totally agree. thats why i hesitate to sell cars that have virgin engines in them. cars are rusty, but motors are fine--run great for stockers. and the 455 i have has 65000 original miles on it..little hard to find today.

It's just going to get worse. The "buy a crate motor" Chevy / Ford crowd is going to force more and more good machine shops out of business as more and more guys take the easy way out. Since the Chevy / Ford stuff is where the volume is, if the good shops can't keep the lights on with this work, there are going to be fewer and fewer skilled places to work on the low volume BOP stuff.

A lot of shops I see are under a lot of pressure from customers to "do it cheap". If the majority of a shop's work is doing bare-bones or fleet work, they're gonna take that same bare-bones attitude when a performance engine wanders in. They're gonna let valve guides on the high end of tolerance go, barely hold .001" cylinder bore taper, not totally clean parts, etc because 98% of their customers don't care as long as it goes down the road. And you feel like a nit-picking jackass asking them if they measured the cylinders after they honed it. And if they're the only game in town, you're stuck with them or have to hike to the next city.

With that said, there's no excuse for effing up a helicoil or block fill like that. Wow. That's straight jake-leggery right there.

Comes back to basics
If a so called machine shop cant perform the basic machining tasks on any engine make to specifications in the book or to a manufacturer specifications they should not be called a machine shop.

Exactly! We can machine any engine, as long as it fits in our equipment. We even worked on a 1915 Packard engine, I think it was!

My 455 has 72k on it and it is smooth as silk. Very clean inside also :D

Sadly I've been seeing more and more posts about bad machine shops lately.

Found a few pics of the 1967 YT block that was destroyed by a machine shop. They originally built the engine using HYperutectic pistons and apparently never read the instructions for gapping the rings. Crazy as it was the rings just wore out the cylinder walls to the tune of a 300,000 mile engine and left 1/2" of metal in the oil pan. This engine was only in the car running for 2 weeks.
Long story short and against my recommendations the ownder took the engine back to the butchers and they put 8 sleeves in the block. i guess they had a bever working for cheap labor so they had him gnaw away the chamfers in the block. The chamfers were so big that the fire ring from a standard felpro gasket would not seal on 4 of the cylinders.
They also re used the pistons with the damaged ring lands but cut the top ring lands wider to use a spacer under the top ring. Funny thing is they apparently still did not read the instructions(maybe because of ILLITERACY) for the pistons and setting the ring gaps. The ring gaps were still not correct.
One more thing that was F ed up was apparently they had an old stripped out pipe plug sitting in the scrap bin that was just the right weight they needed to add to the crank. A few tack welds are good for holding the plug in right?

Wow!, where do you begin on that YT block. First, the amount of work required to put 8 dry sleeves in an iron block is huge. Not to mention, a decent quality sleeve is going to be $40.00-50.00 each. The chamfers are huge as you mentioned, and likely not needed at all or could be 1/2 that size. Personally, I don't like to put weight on a crankshaft counterweight vertically like that. Sometimes, I have to do it and I always use a full penetration weld all the way around. I have seen the results of a weight like that coming out and it's never pretty. You can ruin the entire engine and endanger the driver if the weight goes through the oil pan in the traps. I much prefer to drill and ream the counterweight horizontally, then press the mallory metal in. No welding and it won't come out.

I remember that engine! Wow! What a piece of work.

Well after all you did fix the crank and we used it in the 77 400 engine. The rest was junk.

IF you have the CORRECT equipment and a machinist that is qualified to use this equipment, sleeving this block wouldn't be too difficult but I would have to wonder about the overall strength of the deck due to the amount of material removed from the cylinder walls. Most of the sleeves we dealt with had a wall thickness of 3/8" (.375) minimum.

I have a computerized semi-automatic Rottler boring mill, F5A. It won't go hole to hole and you do have to set-up each bank separately. I admit I am not a speed demon, but by the time I set up the two banks, load the program, bore the cylinders for sleeves, buy the sleeves, put them in dry ice, install them, cut down the tops to the deck, bore and hone the sleeves with torque plates, a customer is going to have a grand in that alone. It would take me about 8 hours to install and bore the sleeves and another 4 hours to torque plate hone the block. Even at $60.00 an hour, which is a very low labor rate around here, that's $720.00 plus the cost of 8 sleeves. I hope the Pontiac faithful won't take this the wrong way, but I can buy a good core 400 for around $250.00 and a 455 for $400.00 or so. I just can't see the benefit of this kind of massive chip removal from a typical Pontiac block vs a decent core. A rare block or 1 or 2 sleeves would be a different story. I put 8 sleeves in an original 64 hemi block because the owner wanted to keep it numbers matching. Also put 8 in a Ford motorsports 5.0 liter. I guess if someone brings the money and insists I do it, I would.

The sad part is if the brain surgeon would have sonic tested the block it most likely would have been fine at 60 over. Pretty stupid to sleeve a block in 8 holes and go .030 so you can re use the pistons that were messed up anyway with spacers under the top ring.

F5A's a good machine. We had F90s and F80s. The F80s were used for nothing more than sleeving blocks. I would kill for a F67A. I can understand the Hemi, but 5.0 Motorsports blocks aren't exactly rare. I've cut the cam bores for roller bearings on one. NOT a fun job...........