Early Production Judge ?????
 

Guys, I had someone contact me with their Judge's information for my registry and they asked me if their Judge could have been the first one built. While I suspect that it is not the first judge built for 69 it does appear to be a very early built car with a tag code of 01B and a order number of 00001

I know some of you guys are really good with the build sheets, ect so what are your thoughts

Tim

It went to zone office 1st, then to Allen Pontiac.
It is a 'Pattern' Judge but it is #000017.
Jan. 9th date, probably one of the first but not the 1st I'd say.
(especially at Framington?)
Possibly the 640th GTO down the line?

What is the body #?
(000589?)

:confused:

I'm sure BVZ can give more details.

:)

With that 000001 it may have been the 1st at Judge Framington?

:confused:

Tim,

That is the earliest Judge vin I have seen out of Framingham and the 01B cowl tag build date is obviously the earliest as well.

The PHS shows dealer order # 00017 however the build sheet shows order # 00001. Interesting and as John stated it may be the first Judge out of Framingham.

All that said, it COULD be the first Judge built until an earlier one is found.

John

With regards to the PHS paper work, what does ADV.ASSN.COL mean? His shows 027 for the code and mine which is built in Freemont shows a code of 237. His OPTIONAL LOC also has the code of 027 and mine has the code of 237. Just curious as to what ADV.ASSN.COL and OPTIONAL LOC mean and why both cars show different codes. My car is a 01D Freemont built Judge
Thanks.

Charles, it's explained on my website: http://www.musclecarfilms.com/Pontiac_Invoice.html http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-happy088.gif

Thanks Mike!! Great site, marked it in my favorites. Is the difference in his code 027 and mine 237 because of location? His in Framingham and mine in Freemont?

Looks to me that the end of the 00001 has washed out the 7 (or been doctored). As you can see, the FRAMINGHAM PLANT is not all there either.

Thanks for saying that! I could not make sense of it so I did not comment before. Maybe that is right (not sure). So, the order number in that box on the build sheet (I cannot read the words from the scan though.) and the number on the PHS invoice may be counting Judges? Or might they be counting zone cars? Would there have been many more zone cars so that is not a possibility? I'm just asking questions.

I have never been sure what those low numbers on the PHS were really counting for these first zone Judges.

But if these numbers match, the numbers may be done in build order since the number originates on the build sheet. There could have been 17 Judges built fairly quickly when production started I guess.

I look forward to some more comments.

Yes, the ADV.ASSN.COL code usually coincided with the dealer code. There are a few exceptions where I've seen the codes do not match. The dealer may have chosen to advertise in another area, possibly because they were just across a state line, and the next closest city was in the next state, or perhaps they were just outside the imaginary line that Pontiac drew up to separate zones.

As for the first Judge, I would imagine that the first one produced would have been at the Pontiac plant. A quality control check, along with labor time necessary for the application of stripes, wing, etc. were probably done before production scheduling and the necessary assembly steps were sent out to the other plants.

Mike

Mike, I might have thought the same thing but the Pontiac assembly plant did not start making GTO/Judge's until mid production year as they were busy building the new body style Grand Prix, ect but who knows for sure

Very Nice website Mike as I like all the information you have on your site so great job !!!

Thanks for all the comments everyone as this Judge seems to be an early Judge but just how early.

Tim

Tim, very good point! I'm not sure where the first one was built, but I would have assumed since the Pontiac plant was indeed making GTO's, it would have made the most sense to build the first one there. They produced 849 Judges in January 1969.

Thank you for the thumbs-up on my website! Always like to help out whenever I can.

Mike

I glanced through some of my PHS' and never found a 'pattern' Judge in the Pontiac plant?

Found A, B, G, some R's and Z's.
Also found some 'duplicate' pattern #'s, so it must have been for each plant.
So there was probably a pattern # 17 in all the plants that made them.

If they made 2000, then each of the plants making them would have made around 400?
(or less if Pontiac plant made pattern Judges)

:confused:

What constitutes a "Pattern Judge"? Not counting CR paint, little to no options, Rally II minus trim rings/black tires, is it a combination of numbers and letters in the various blocks on the PHS? I'm guessing the Pattern Judges were the first 2000 built? From what I read not many CR Judges were built after the first 2000, is this true?

How can you tell if you have one of the Pattern Judges? Were they all built in January?

http://www.forums.maxperformanceinc....d.php?t=461212

I posted this thread link in your Judge thread Charles.

Thanks HFR! What an excellent post!! Mine is one of the pattern judges built in Fremont 01D and has 00060 in the code. Mine though does not have power disk breaks. Everything else is like all the other pattern cars. I wonder why it was built without Pdb?

That was probably the best Judge thread ever!

Charles, some of the pattern cars were slightly different. I don't believe anyone knows why. It might have been optional for the factories to drop an option that was in short supply on zone cars--just a guess on my part.

Yes! It needs to be a sticky, it would alleviate a lot of questions from folks like me, who are just now acquiring their Judge and wondering what the PHS is telling them. Thanks for being patient and guiding me thru all the questions I had when looking to purchase the car. You guys on this forum are extremely helpful with your wealth of knowledge on the Judge. Is there a book out there that speaks just to the Judge? I find all this very fascinating and enjoy reading all the information you guys have researched. Thanks again!!

CB

I don't know of a Judge book. If there was one, it would probably have a bunch of errors in it! lol But a good one with great pictures might sell.

The build sheet posted by Tim (Judge Registry) shows a 01-09 build. The earliest I have seen is an 01-04 build from Fremont.

Recently I found some internal documents at the Pontiac Museum, and asked Tim Dye if it was ok to discuss here.

Internal memos show they produced 1000 pattern cars in Carousel Red.

1969 Judge Production
--------------------------
January production = 849
February production = 1,288
March production = 1,765
April production = 1,095
May production = 808

The above figures include Canadian and export shipments.

April production dropped from March due to a hold on Ram Air engines to correct a durability problem. By early May, they estimated that 3,000 Judges had actually been sold, with 1,500 in dealer stock. May production dropped over April due to the issue with the Ram Air engines, coupled with a strike.

The build-out schedule for June 1969 was 759 units, and for July 1969 they scheduled 272 units. The July figure included anticipated August production at Baltimore and Lakewood.

Mike

Thanks, Mike. Can the internal memos be scanned for us to see or be placed on the internet somewhere? Posting them at the Judge Registry might be nice if all are ok with that.

Is there other known internal documentation for the Judge?

just a note--I believe that build sheets are generally not found for the Baltimore Judges so I don't believe we will ever nail down the first day of production or the first Judge made.

I cleared this with Tim, and he said this one was ok to post. There is a lot more information to follow, and will be released as it becomes available.

Mike

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...1&d=1442954015

WOW
Many grateful thanks to Mike and Tim for sharing this stuff with us here.

I like how we / they - both call them Pattern Cars

So now we can wonder - did 1,000 units become transposed into 2,000 units
as time went on ? Do we rewrite or edit all comments on here regarding "The First 2,000" ?

I am thinking that may have been a typo /error / oversight ... perhaps . possibly . maybe
idunno

They show 849 units built in January , which at least 99.5 - 99.8 % would have been Pattern Cars.

We also know the Pattern Builds continued up until 3rd week of February.
They show 1288 units for full month of Feb.
849 + 1288 = 2137

But we also know not every single Judge in February was a Pattern Car.

So ... whether or not 2,000 is 100% accurate - i think it is closer than the 1,000
written in the memo.

Some of the memo may be "generalized" from the shoulder as it was written on May 8 . It reads more like a quick brief progress report. Saying that because it is Odd it has the paragraph titled :Purpose:

5634 + 434 = 6068
not 6081
weird again
idunno

I think production beginning in Mid January is pretty accurate though.

The 1B Fremont Judge with Build Sheet mentioned - was not built on January 4th.
Jan 4 was its "proposed" build date when they finally thought they were going to start building these cars.
I have copy of it also, but no one has the PHS Invoice for it... yet.
It does have the lowest VIN (113xxx) of any Fremont Judge i know of though.

The Judge program met several delays, they were supposed to be out on the streets by Jan 1 ... originally.

The dates on the build sheets are the proposed build date.
Doesn't always , if ever , work out on that date.
1B body date tells us it didn't build out on Jan 4.

Very Very Very Doubtful the Framingham car in question was built out on Jan 9.
But can say another thing about it that has not been mentioned yet ... it has the earliest Ship Date from Zone Storage Lot than any other Pattern Judge , so far.
Jan 30
But that really means nothing overall. Just a tidbit factoid.
Have another Framingham Judge with 125xxx - but 1C body build date.
1B car has body number FM 056607 from build sheet - if that matters.

Jan 23 was the early Non-Pattern (pattern-plus a few more opts) Canadian car from Baltimore Plant. This was probably the 1st car built. imho

Jan 31 was the Non-Pattern Bob Longpre California car from Fremont Plant. 115xxx
(have no less than 2 other Fremont Judges with much lower VIN - 113xxx and 114xxx)

Most all others were held at Zone Lots until Feb 5th and later.

1B body date cars are the early birds.
Which one came off the line first - who knows.
Which plant started first - who knows for sure.
I think it was Baltimore, with Fremont right behind. pure speculation

As far as
= How do the Order Numbers fit against the Pattern Cars =
It has never had a complete definition.
I have tried many variable scenarios in the past and only gotten headaches.

Mike's release of Tim Dye's document opens another door that seems to be the way out - maybe ...

Looks to (possibly) be the running total for the build week of that finish plant.
(not necessarily in any alignment with body build date weeks / date codes)

On Invoices , they are always (usually) 000xx.
I have instances of plants with same number used over again.
I have instances of different plants with the same 000xx number.
It has never taken me anywhere, except to the aspirin cabinet.

At one time it looked like maybe it was going to be a code for a certain combo.
Such as 4 speed with Parchment, 4 speed with Black, etc ...
Nope

Since it was asked - I will say - I have Car Order Number 00017 from Fremont (matching the Order Number of the Framingham subject car) and it is also Auto with Parchment. Some of them hit like that, most don't.
I have some 00021's that some are 4spd Black and some 4spd Parchment.

But I have Order Numbers from 00017 to 00076 and lots of in-betweens.

The oddest quirk though is the before mentioned 1B Fremont Auto with 113xxx VIN.
The buildsheet shows it as Order Number 000143.
It is the only one i can find with 3 numerics along with the zeros.
I think maybe the 3 was a fat finger digit , and it would be 00014 on the Invoice.
Otherwise 142 preceded it that week. Seems too many

Can't ever do anything with these Pattern Cars without at least 1 oddball anymore . :rolleyes:

The only thing we absolutely know for sure about the 000xx Order Numbers is they tell us it is a Pattern Car. Has been a nice "quick check factoid" on Invoices in the past.

Will take a larger data base of Patterns than what I have , to firmly secure the idea that the 000xx represents a running build total for the week for that respective plant. But it does hold water so far with what i can compare against.

Just bothers me that I don't have, nor can recall, any single digit Order Numbers.
Such as 00002 or 00008

Short Sample on 000xx Order Numbers

Two Baltimore Pattern Judges
Both 1C Body Dates
Both TT / 58 / 4spd (identical twins)

About 350 VIN's apart

B1544xx = 00045 Order Number
B1548xx = 00051 Order Number

This weekly running total theory seems the best potential definition so far.

Here's what I have for Baltimore:

b151xxx
pattern Judge #21
2/13/69 (shipped date on PHS)

b156xxx
pattern Judge #39
2/17/69

b158xxx
pattern Judge #40
2/26/69

b1xxxxx
pattern Judge # 51
2/5/69

b156xxx
pattern Judge #54 (64? blurry on PHS)
2/21/69

:)

One question in regards to the buildsheet posted. Why is the The Judge option first? Every buildsheet I have seen the codes are in alphabetical/ numerical order. On this sheet WT1 is listed first and not in order.

The one from Allen Pontiac?

It is in order.
The numbers go left to right then down.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...2&d=1442438446

:confused:

Possibly you're in the other thread, which has a 70 Judge?

It is 1st because the code is 332 for the Judge option?

Loaded Judge

:confused:

Found a couple more Baltimore:
(added some info BVZ may like)

b155954
pattern Judge #35
2/10/69

TT 58 4sp zba477926

b156063
pattern Judge #42
2/26/69

TT 58 4sp zba526801

b1xxxxx
pattern Judge #77
2/17/69

TT 58 4sp zba498528

:)

And 3 #17 Judges:

a119xxx
pattern Judge #17
3/04/69

TT 57 Auto zaa544425
----------------------

g125xxx
pattern Judge #17
1/30/69

TT 57 Auto zga453185
----------------------

z114xxx
pattern Judge #17
2/05/69

TT 57 Auto zza468236?
-----------------------

Just noticed they are all Parchment and Automatic.

:)

And a number above 2 digits:

z115xxx
pattern Judge #103
2/19/69

TT 58 4sp zzb508840

:)

Sorry was looking at a ton of PHS'

:eek:

The buildsheet probably has it at the top because it is showing the stripe/decal color I think?

:confused:

Also appears to be a Framington thing.

:)

Yep.
I have 4-5 Framingham 69 Judge B-Sheets
All of them are done that same way.

Thanks for those data entries John.
Can see the same potential pattern of head counting on some of yours that are real close together in VIN sequence.

The ship dates from Zone Lots are so useless its almost pathetic. lol
B151xxx was right with the Canadian Car that went out Jan 23,
but the Pattern Car stalled until Feb 13.
It also would have been a 1B body.

Glad you found the 00103 example !

The 00017's make my skin crawl.

In case this pans out -
Need to give credit to Bet Winner for the original suggestion / thought.

That along with some of the info from the memo , is what spurred me to have another look at the Order Numbers ... again.

GTO JOHN and North are probably going to have the largest pools of Pattern Car files.
Half or more of mine are trapped on a crashed hard drive.

Some time soon should start another thread asking for others to share their Pattern Car data info's too.

Baltimore and Fremont examples looks like the best way to handle it instead of trying to do all 5 plants.

In case it matters - about the original subject car from Framingham,
Since the dedicated box on B-Sheet is missing the 7.

The 000017 Order Number is on the build sheet in a second location,
right along top of ledger it repeats the plant job number and order number
side by side.

186276 000017

All the Fram B-Sheets have that data there whether its a Judge or not.

I agree.
I don't have the cowl tag info on most so don't have any tag dates.
That's about the only dates I have for them.

On the build sheets if I have them could get the body number I guess.

Just interesting how they did it.

:)

I love watching you guys sort this stuff out! :thumbup:

Thanks John TA. Yes it is in order on the PHS invoice but not on the buildsheet / broadcast sheet. WT1 is listed first . Every broadcast sheet/ build sheet/ tank sheet I have seen follows an alphabetic order. Look at the build sheet not the PHS

Yep.

Evidently Framington is an exception, they decided to add the blurb about the stripe color to the option description, so it required more space to print it.

:confused:

They put it first also possibly for the line workers to know they had to do extra work on the body?

:confused:

I have some info on this pattern Judge Dealer Order #00103 car z1155xx:

This car has a 01D cowl tag (I have a pic of it).

Freemont 58 4spd. zzb508840

Shipped to zone lot # 24 991 on Feb. 19, and sold to a dealership in California on March 11.

BVZ hope this doesn't aggravate your headache.

Is that a normal spread from the cowl tag 01D to the ship date Feb. 19?

Thanks for the information. Framingham and Fremont did there own thing:)

LoL, not at all a problem on the old headaches Man.

The "ship dates" on these Pattern Cars is when they left from the Zone Storage Holding Lots (xx-99x). Relates nothing to when the car was built or left the factory.
These are their own little animal in many ways.

I would expect a Fremont 115xxx to be a 1D
114xxx to be 1C
113xxx to be 1B

It probably won't be "exactly" that cut and dry - but pretty close.
With the the normal few exceptions to be expected here and there around the edges.

Have seen examples of 1C and 1D with earlier "ship dates" than a 1B .
The "ship dates" are virtually useless on these other than to be entertaining,
and indicates there was likely a timed release statute involved - we suppose.

They have a ship date / date of note / and a date of interest starting (if GMAC).
The Feb date is when it left the zone lot to go to that dealer.
The March date is probably the interest date.

OK that clears that up then. Thanks.

About the dealer order 00103 has there been other pattern cars with the dealer order numbers above 100??

Or any other 01D Freemonts with the same 00103 code?

There might be others with higher numbers than 103.

But there would be only one 103 in Fremont, or only one per plant.
(I think)

Not a lot is actually known I think about these.
We keep learning more and more as time goes on and other examples show up.

:)

Well actually ....
( I ) think these are weekly schedule running total / head count , per plant.

Which means we would see repetition on a lot of numbers.
If i'm at least half way right.
But maybe not the higher/highest numbers.

Have a 1B Fremont with Order 00143 , so that first week would have also had a 103 - potentially.

Will have to go through all mine again to look for repeats in same plant.

Too many examples from 17 - 77 for them to have been grand totals of a 6-7 week production period of Pattern Cars.

If we go with 1,000 units ... that would be 200 per plant (5 plants)
If we go 2,000 units approx ... that is 400 per plant.

Here is another group of factoids - for Fremont
From what would be on the trim tags (1B only have buildsheet)

1B - 03875 body number / xxxxxx job sequence number / 768768 job plan number
1C - 04448 / 140255 / 801945
1D - 04523 / 170376 / 801506
1D - 04565 / 16076x / 872959
1E - 04722 / 200444 / 809956

That slop isn't going to help much of anything . lmao

I'll throw my slop on the pile. The 01D judge with dealer order 00103 I referred to earlier has the following on the cowl tag: (very much in line with your slop)

01D - 04623 / 180119 / 801647 I hope this helps if nothing but more info for ya.

As someone said earlier, keep up the good work gents!!!

I know you'll crack the code with enough info & research.

I can send you a pic of the cowl tag if needed.

Here's another Pattern Judge with 3 digits.
(missed it in my records :o)

z113xxx
pattern Judge #143
1/04/69

TT 58 Auto zz(a?)768768

This VIN is one of the earliest I have seen for Fremont.
(not that I have a lot of them)

:)

Just noticed BVZ already showed this.

:o

Oh well to the top I guess.

:D