PHS on Loaded Judge
 

Check out the PHS on this loaded Palladium Silver Judge. Especially the dates:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-GTO-...m=361396328332

Dang - 29 options, including "THE JUDGE" option.

Doesn't your white IV car have more options than this one, Rob?

Oops - forgot the dates. Definitely an engineering, show or brass hat car, Rob.

If Jim M. could be talked into looking, he'd find at least one more invoice for that car.

Looks like somebody wanted a Judge...and a Cadillac. What a stone that thing must've been (be)

Special car to say the least. Could this have been for the Auto Show? 70 Judge delivered to the Dealer in late March 71 as a new car? Note what appears to be the original window sticker has "22,000" miles written on it. Has to have a story that comes with it besides it having a 72 dash.

Pretty cool, was ordered by 04 995 Pontiac Division, Maryland Zone office, and after use was auctioned off to the winning dealer in Maryland for $2302.00 in 1971 with 22,200 miles.

That is definitely NOT the original window sticker. It's one of the PHS repros that was printed on the incorrect 1972 form. Someone just photocopied the PHS repro and then wrote 22,200 miles on it, probably the last person that sold the car, because now it has 22,908 miles.

Cool car though, would like to know the story behind it.

Mike

Thanks for the info on window sticker, at least the other sheet is correct with the winning bid.

I looked at that car,non numbers everywhere, phs does not match the cowl, blue interior on cowl but black on phs and no vin on frame.The engine deviation code got me going though, definitely left the factory without the original engine. Does anyone know what pct.car for $180.00 is ? That late in the year could not be a zone car, maybe a new hire wanted one.

Oops that was for 152.00

Looks like the rear stripes are on wrong side.

Maybe the 'Change Alert' was for the interior color change?

The cowl tag rivet looks very suspect on the right?

:confused:

Yeah...
 

"Run, Forrest, ruuuun!!!" on this one!

Could / would anyone post a copy of the Invoice on here as an attachment ?
For those of us who can't view pics on eBay , please .

And maybe the trim tag too . :)




I can't see the pics - but is funny how many resto's end up with fender stripes on the quarters , and etc...



Possibility maybe.

A more current revelation on Change Alert with Judges has been Non-Default stripe color applications. Silver with Black interior may have elected Black/Red/Yellow stripes instead of Default Blue stripes.

Or if trim tag is right, and Invoice code is incorrect - maybe they (whoever ordered it) realized late that silver paint would get blue stripes - and asked to switch to blue interior after order had been preferenced.

Would need Invoice #1 to compare dating against the build date on trim tag to know more about the virtue of the trim tag.

Here are the PHS and cowl tag:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...1&d=1443306472

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...1&d=1443306472

:)

To avoid saying "all" (bad word with PMD)
Most all Invoice Era cars being sold after whatever type of use had that notation.
Most all the 70 GTO's - used the same lingo/amount of 152.80 based off the Base Price of a 70 GTO.
And then another amount based off the Option Content price.
The amount of options will make the OPT price vary from car to car.

For example
5 PCT. CAR $152.80 OPT 61.05

Its a bean dip number for the bean counters.
Not exactly 5% using standard math.
Its bean dip common core hoochie goochie witchcraft math .. no big deal :D

Usually just below that text, in left corner, will be either *30 or *35

From what has been described so far, it was indeed some type of internal use vehicle.
The lengthy time frame is uncommon, but we see them like that once in a while, again and again.
Many choices of facts and speculations to explain or romanticize these examples.
When they have 2 or 3 Invoices on hand it helps a lot too.

Thanks as always John :thumbsup:
u da' Man

This car would have most likely been from PMD Defacto ... 35-997
Engineering / Development car

Probably to see if a Judge could be driven with all those options going at the same time without suffering from electro-magnetic draw towards the moon. Or pulling towards magnetic north real hard. sumpn

A hard loaded zone rep car could have been built in Baltimore plant right next door.
But it was built in Pontiac Mich
Its too over-loaded ($) for a Zone Rep , they normally cap under 5k.

04-995 is a regular regional Zone Facility.
Same zone storage lot that BetWinner's 69 Pattern Judge went through.
Thats probably where O'Donnell had it shipped to/through , from PMD.
04-995

Instead of having *30 or *35 in lower left corner , it has SP , for Special Bid.
Sold at about half price.

It likely got used a bit , and was a hard sale too with so much equipment ($) , to go SP for half price. Usually they offer them at 30% , if no takers then go to 35% , then they go to bidding.

Does not have a notation about "Over 6 Months"
So they didn't "use" it for a long time.
It was just a hard sale item - most likely.

Would have loved to had the car from O'Donnell when it was still a cherry.
What a Cadillac !!

Orejudge said "the engine deviation code got me going though, definitely left the factory without the original engine"

I never knew that, is that true they sold cars without the original engine and that's what the eng 339 deviation means?

Original dealer cost on this car would have been around $4300-4400.
$2302 was a nice price for Donnell.

I hope at least 1 more previous Invoice is available for this Judge.
And that the build sheet can be found by current or subsequent owner.

Would be pretty interesting to see whose name or what designation this car was tagged for on the build sheet. Possibly a name we would recognize.

Super Cruiser with White Letter Tires and all the Goodies inside and out.
But no Posi.
I'm thinking a really vested big brass hat at PMD Motherland Engineering/Development used this ol gal to drive to work for 3 months / 3000 miles.

Test cars usually had Posi, so they could test both rear wheels more efficiently.

About all i can see on the auction page is 5 days left with 25 bids @ 39k , reserve not met. Will try to get to library this week and check this one out on high speed internet.

Some deja vue, seems like this car might have been for sale 7-10 years ago on eBay and got some ink on here somewhere.

No.

Engineering / Development - Car # 0339

This is either Invoice #2 or #3 for this car.
It is a multi-invoice car from PMD .

lol ok, so we don't know for sure this left the factory without the original engine like Orejudge suggested?

I thought he was sort of joking about that. lol

Ram3 Auto A/C non-Posi more than likely still had its #'s drivetrain intact when O'Donnell sold it to someone.

They only put 3 months / 3000 miles on these cars - whichever came first.
Unless noted otherwise (Over 3 Months or Over 6 Months etc...) - when they were used/sold in this manner.

Full warranty included.

Ore did suggest it is completely Non-Matching #'s now.
So thought he just sorta threw all that together tongue in cheek or sumpn.

IF something went haywire during use, they would have put another new duplicate engine in the car before it left PMD. Or destroyed the car.
Whichever made more sense depending on car condition overall.

This car could/should actually be called "Test Car # 0339"
But any testing it might have done, would have been more mundane.
Maybe it was tested for MPG or potential electrical conflicts.
More of that nature, if any at all.

Sometimes things fall under an umbrella for the bean counters etc.
It looks more like a brass hat's Eldorado on the Invoice, than a Test Car.

the reason I was asking I have "heard" stories over the years of a couple original pep cars/dealer rep or whatever with engines being couple hundred #'s later from the dash vin. With the vin being so close, they would have been from a car from the next day or two of production. I always thought they were untrue, of all the cars out there how could a couple different people find a block so close and done so long ago, what are the odds. But if it was done at the factory, why wouldn't they just crush it, why would they sell it?? Or was it installed on accident and just went un-noticed?? Do you think they would have grabbed the next available engine with a vin already stamped into it and installed it on the line and not had access to a SR block?
Just curious if any one else had heard anything like this?

There have been a number of original engine cars found with 1 digit wrong in the holder when stamped.

Depending where that digit stands in the line up - determines whether it was Singles off, Tens off, Hundreds off, Thousands off .... etc..
But they had only 1 digit wrong.

And i think a few cases of 2 digits being criss-crossed with each other.
That can make a varying degree of difference.

I'm not sure if any of them were ever factory rides though.

Those other stories - I would rather buy a cup of coffee before I would buy the story.
And I don't drink coffee.

Just to be more clear , this car was at PMD Motherland Defacto , Engineering/Development - every day during its use. It could have gotten anything it needed the very same day. A block, a short block, a complete engine ... new carpet, new seat... anything. Same day.
They wouldn't have put any wacky jack replacements on the car.
That was my insinuation. :)

Bad news , sorta.

Tried to dig up some info earlier about this deal but got tired of looking.
Dug some more and found what I needed this time.

If anyone is bidding on this Test Car
Figure in more than a replacement rivet
It needs a whole new trim tag, and rivets.

Pontiac built with P135xxx VIN would be more in the range of late Sept - early Oct 1969 time frame.
09D , 09E, 10A range

04C Pontiac built (current trim tag) would be VIN range of P240xxx

Probably a clapped out parted out car that got "put back together" after they found the buildsheet or sent in for PHS. So no telling how much is missing and incorrect.
Do your homework and legwork first.

P137xxx was early'ish-October 1969

P240xxx was mid-late April 1970

bummer

Change Alert wasn't the interior color going to Blue.
It was to Alert folks 45 years later to watch the hell out !

Thanks for clearing that up on the engineering development ,guess thats how rumors start, last owner stated it was a 455 car from{ engine deviation} thats why there are experts here. I sure am glad I ran the other way. After all the looking I never noticed the build date did not line up WOW.

Replacement trim tags with correct rivets are only in the $300-500 range these days.
1970 Pontiac plant would be about the easiest one to replicate.
So that issue is probably one of the smallest issues it faces.

How did the VIN plate and its rosette rivets look ? if you can recall

How well put together / restored is the car overall ?

Were all the options present and working order ?

It has a cool pedigree and killer option content with a nice color combo.
But its not a "the sky is the limit" type car to keep dumping huge coin into it
to get it right.

If the original build sheet were present, AND it was tagged to a recognizable name in history, it could make a little more value exist. But only a degree.
If the frame has been out, the tank likely has been too.
And B-sheet prospect already up in smoke.

Resto older and not high quality,drivers door had some issues in the jamb area, previous accident. Dont recal rivets so cant answer that.

Not to get anyone confused about any engine deviation misinterpretations again -
but this car [possibly] could have been a 455 RA Auto Judge.

They would appear the same on the invoice as a Ram3 Auto
It was a no cost alternate and was available from start of 70 model production.
Only 17 produced. Only 1 documented.

The frame would have a different part number / plant code.
Block would have been a YA code this early.
And a 12 bolt rear.

I got to thinking about all the options, and it being a cruiser,
and how cool it would be for it to have been a 455 RA car too.
And then realized .... it actually could have been one.

Did you find ANY numbers on the frame at all ?
Did it have a YA/64 engine or 12 bolt rear ?

The publicity ads had a statement about the 455 to the effect of pushing the 455 on higher option cars. Forgot the exact wording.

Sure appears to be a re-body. Thanks to BVZ for all the great detective work and information. Could save someone from making an expensive error . . .

Shame too, for a nice color Judge with all those options, and the engineering car pedigree!

I did not think to look at the frame date or numbers. Did not have a 12 bolt.

The discussion on the thread has been interesting and enlightening. The two main reasons I initiated this thread were the trim tag date/vin # and how late the car was sold to the public. Has anyone seen a Pontiac sold nearly eight months after the model year ended?

My Judge was built in October and not sold to the public until July which I thought was a long time, but still within the model year (barely).

It is basically because it sat/used at the zone office.
Then when it finally was sold to a dealer/customer was when the 'shipped to' date is recorded on PHS.

Do you have the PHS/Build Sheet for your car?

Possibly same thing?

There were a lot of TA's in 1969 that sat forever on the lot or in zone lots.
If the price is too high and it's getting closer to the next model year, most people wait for the new cars.

Kind of the same with the Judges with the price being pretty high compared to regular cars, some may not be sold without some kind of discount?

These weren't 'collectible' back when new.

:confused:

My 72 WW5 GTO was built in December and not invoiced until September.

My specialty is these wacky kooky oddball invoices and multi-invoice cars.

Have probably over a dozen or more on file that didn't go to a final selling dealer until into the following model Sales year.

And at quick flip , no less than half a dozen that didn't go to a final selling dealer until into the next Calendar year. Ranging from Feb to June of the following Calendar year.

The more extreme examples are just about always some form of Internal Use and range from Hard-Loaded to Mega-Loaded.

The procedures they go through can vary, and the time frames can vary.

Generally though -
By the time one goes to sealed bidding (an otherwise As New Car) it has already been offered at 30% Discount for a while - then 35% Discount for a while.
In some cases the 1st round of bidding may not produce any bids depending on the minimum bid amount requisite - when applied.

Its not complicated, but takes some typing to cover most all the bases.
4 months from New -usually- before one can even be had, as a starting point.
From there the clock keeps ticking.

Just reminded myself there was also a 40% Discount stage too.
So there's another leg to add onto the journey on some of these cars.

Most will go at the 30% or 35% Discount stage.

70 GTO Vert Company Car - sensibly/moderately equipped performance wise -
Burgandy/Black/Black WT 4spd 3.90 - no extravagant options.
Only $4200 Retail

Built in Mid May 70
Sold March 20 1971
40% Discount

[edit - my mistake, it was a 4.33 rear axle Code 37S on the Pontiac Plant Buildsheet. oops]
Likely played a bigger part of the slow sale action.

It seems to me we need a brief discussion about the different categories of company vehicle types:

PEP vehicles (company vehicles assigned for general transportation based on rank or level of authority) are the ones that adhere to the 3 month or 3000 mile rotation period. They are not to be modified in any way; they are regular plated and are assigned to an individual (by name) during their company ownership.

Test/Development vehicles do not ascribe to that same time period. They are kept for as long as needed, until used up, or until they "age out" and need to be replaced by a newer vehicle. That can be as long as a couple model years. They are intended to reside at Milford (or the DPG) or the engineering building and technically are not supposed to be used for general transporation, but could be if "normal driving" is part of the evaluation. They are typically M plated but there can be a few regular plated vehicles in the development fleet.* They are also intended to be cut up and experimented with, although ideally they can be returned to production intent and sold or auctioned at the end of their run. If they are too far gone they are "expensed" (written off the books) and are kept around as a junker or scrapped.

Test/development vehicles are assigned to the development fleet via an authorization code (or to the fleet coordinator) and are available to anyone to "check out" for use in their own development project or as a group on a vehicle ride trip (either on property or off property). The fleet only has a certain number of auth codes available which is why vehicles will time out and need to be replaced. That's also why "expensed" vehicles are kept around even though they could be scrapped: they are another car available for use but don't appear on the books.

Test/development vehicles are typically loaded with content for the legitimate engineering reason that you would like to test all the interactions between options, both electrically and physically. Also, if you find out during the model year that you have a problem in the field with some obscure option your chances are better of finding one to work with already existing in the fleet if you loaded them up in the first place. That saves time in terms of having to order a specific vehicle and wait for it to be built or scour the local dealerships for a vehcle with that particular option.

PEP vehicles are typically loaded with content...well...because management folks like cushy rides, and they are not paying for it.

K

*M plated vehicles are also not supposed to be used for general transportation. Legitimate M plate usage consists of (a) transporting the vehicle from one location to another, or (b) active testing on public roadways. Usage and transfer of plates between vehicles is logged and kept in the fleet office in the event that the Michigan Secretary of State (our version of the DMV) would like to review it.

One other thought:

Test vehicles are typically contented and ordered by the fleet coordinator.

Individual drivers were allowed to content and order their own PEP vehicles when I first became a company car driver, but the policy was changed at some point and vehicles were ordered by some third party and randomly assigned (being weighted towards your product line of responsibilty but not 100%). The motivation for this change, I was told, was driven by an interpretation of an IRS requirement to make it look less like an outright "benefit" and more like a legitimate business expense. The mileage/time in service also got adjusted over a period of years as the corporation tried to fine tune their investment or based on workload in the company car garage (if they get backed up doing vehicle swaps then you could stay in a car longer) but the 3 month/3000 mile interval is most famous.

Employees can "tag" and buy used company vehicles in a couple ways. You can choose a development vehicle that is coming out of service and buy that at a discount. Or - you can order a specific vehicle and options, have it driven as a company vehicle (either by you if you are a driver or by someone else if you are not) and then buy it when the assigned miles or timeframe is achieved. Stacking the discounts (Option 1 aka "Class 'A'") plus the mileage discount plus "past model" - if you can get it - can result in substantial savings. You had to retain the vehicle for a certain length of time when purchasing in that way; the retention period also was adjusted over the years as the policy evolved.

K

What would you say the reason was for this vehicle being so far apart date wise?

I take it, it would be a 'PEP' vehicle also?

:confused:

I doubt it was PEP, since I don't think those would receive the Eng/Dev designation.

If it was truly a development/test car then there is no standard timing to apply.

I agree with BVZ that the zone designation was simply part of the path it took to get to the selling dealer, not an indication that a zone offical drove it.

K

That's the best summary I've read about what these vehicles were. Thanks Keith!

This is a 1969 log book that an engineer or tester would use as their journal. They logged their mileage, repairs, quirks, and any other incident that happened to occur during their evaluation.

Mike

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...4&d=1443624393

Good stuff! If you told all those Pontiac employees back then that we would be dissecting how they went about their work building, moving and selling cars 50 years later what would they think? Uhhh whats wrong with you people ! LOL!

Thank you; feel free to reuse that if it is helpful.

Now - if I may continue - let me expand a bit on the the words "Test Trip log book":

A "Test Trip" is typically an off property excursion with a number of vehicles. It could be a powertrain cooling or HVAC test trip to Death Vally or Baker Grade; it could be a engine calibration trip or brake trip to Pikes Peak (powertrain guys run up the mountain; brake guys run down the mountain). Cold weather testing is done in Kapuskasing or northern Minnesota. Usually there are several subject vehicles, between two and a dozen or so, plus trip support (lead vehicle and tow/tool trucks. We even had a GMC Motor home at the DPG that we would send on ahead to the lunch stop after loading it with soft drinks and snacks). Observant vacationers might even notice a stream of GM vehicles on the highway, ideally in line and in order based on vinyl letters on the windshield and back glass ("L", "1", "2", etc).

Vehicles are normally selected out of those available in the development fleet based on the subject at hand. The trips normally start and/or end from one of the Proving Grounds (in Milford or Mesa) but can originate from a remote location after the test vehicles are shipped there.

Over the years "standard" test trip routes and locations get established and embedded. If we meet in person remind me to tell you about the "Western Mountain Brake Trips", which I hosted and probably should not describe in writing on a public forum.

;)

Participants usually include all of the pertinent worker bees, plus their management. Sometimes outside groups like Marketing are included if their input or buyin is required (or sometimes just to play nice with the other disciplines). Often there is a predetermined driver rotation schedule so that everybody (almost) gets a turn to drive during the various "legs" of the trip - although the bosses seems to spend a lot more time driving than riding.

Data collection can range from purely subjective evaluations to somewhat technical objective observations using installed instrumentation. The "log book" is where these observations are captured, normally at each pit stop. The book might also include the aforementioned driver rotation and maybe maps plus the data sheets prompting obvservations and data entry. On some really high tech trips the data can be downloaded and formated while on the road so that it can be reviewed at a daily wrap up meeting during dinner or back at the hotel.

I say all this to make a distinction between a "test trip" (which is pretty special) and an engineer's day to day evaluations and activities.

K

Heck of a good write up on those Keith !
Thanks for taking the time to do those and share with us all.

And an awesome little book shared by Mike too !

Like Keith has said - in general not many true Engineering Test Cars finish their business in good enough order to be sold to the public with a full warranty. We are lucky when they do , and then come out of the woodwork to grab our attention on here.

We only have 5 firm documented Engineering Based cars from 1969-1973 pop up in the past 10 years on here. Talking only about cars brought to our attention that were previously unknown.

Once upon a time most folks on here were calling every car that popped up with xx-99x (other than xx-991) anywhere on the Invoice - an ENGINEERING CAR .
That was a hard tradition to break.
Without help from some guys like Keith, i'd still be fighting that battle.


I didn't want to go too deep into explaining this last part , but maybe I will later.
Or in parts at a time. or sumpn

There are some finer points I was told to look for by some great resources I used to have years back. This one is just a little different than the other ENG/DEV Invoice case studies in the past - as far as the direction of some of the finer points.

Some things in billing may have been mildly different in the 60's and early 70's than what Keith got acquainted with starting in the late 70's when he went to GM.
Thats only a very very friendly speculation at the most. Not a guarantee.
Personally - I was 6 years old when this car was sold.
And been going to school ever since then - it seems like.

I'm hoping at least Invoice #1 will materialize for this car, or the buildsheet.
Either one would save a LOT of typing.
All the typing in the world won't prove anything better than a paper trail will. :)

:Peace:

[edit - not saying my theory can't be wrong, saying its too much trouble really to explain all the points that got me there. Lets see if some more paper unravels on this machine.]

Anything is fair game, actually.

I personally have contented vehicles to be ordered by the fleet coordinator and placed in the development fleet with the expressed purpose of purchasing them on behalf of a friend when they timed out.

Didn't work out, though, when the "buyer" couldn't come up with the cash.

:mad:

Keith, great info, thank you. And BVZ doing great analysis as always.

I'm not at liberty to post the details or the contents right now, but I have a 1969 GM Proving Grounds spiral bound report titled "1969 Proving Ground Cars - Specifications and Engineering Test Summaries" marked GM Confidential that I hope to be reporting on in the near future.

Mike

Pontiac only? Or across all GM nameplates?

You know I'm in intrigued...

;)

K

:eek:
:faint:

Steve Hoog would be charting his course to Illinois this very moment if he were still with us. :drive: He loved that stuff. [teardrop]

High hopes it lists the two 69 Birds we have documented.
Orange 400 HO #9749
Red IV #9753 - or 9733

and the infamous elusive mysterious #9723 Orange Bird

W
O
W

Is that offer still fair game? I could option out a fun Camaro that engineering could have their way with! :D

Mike, totally forgot about 1 more 69 ENG/DEV car - if you can check on them in that Book.
(the total of 5 in past 10 years i posted earlier, should be 6 total - new math)

69 GTO Silver Ram3 Auto 3.90 Gears = Car # 9327 (Mega Loaded)

The Red IV Bird had Arctic Wiper Blades, 4.33 Gears, Automatic - so obviously it was a windshield wiper Test Car .. ahem

The Red Bird and the Silver GTO belong to PY members.
Sure they would be blown away if any data is logged about them.




First its a 1LE , now its another Camaro
Mr.BowTie ? Is that who you are now ? Really ? :gag: :D