Engine mount frame brackets.
 

Hey guys,

Does the bolt come up from the bottom and nut and lock washer on top? That seems like the easy way to do it..
On my tear down they were both ways... I'm sure they were out at some point.

thanks
James

one is one way the other is the opposite..at least thats what i found...the the engines where set in assembled, all the brackets and assys on them..and i believe the drivers side had the nut towards the front of the car because its was easy to do that way...

Mine on my 73 GTO where & are all with the nut on the bottom.

In this photo they look like the nuts are towards the top of the bracket..

James

Nuts on the top is the typical Pontiac A body assembly plant way. each of my factory 455 mount cars has the nuts on top. my '72 400 4speed car has the nuts up top. The '73 455 frame brackets I've pulled had the nuts up top. One of my keepers, the prev owner began the frame off under my supervision, and when he reassembled it, his thought, being an ex aircraft A&P mechanic, was the bolt heads should be up top, of course I explained to him the chassis assembly and rollover process, but he preferred to do it his way.

i misunderstood...i thought he was asking about the crossbolt..i dont know what i was thinking....i dont even have that right..i think i was thinkin chevy..or something...i dunno...i was cornfused

yeah too much going on in this small area...

I'm going with Nuts on top... "thats what she said"

thanks
James

So I put the engine in and the RH side lower bolt was way to close to the oil pan.. so I flipped it over.. The Engine seems way too close on the rh side compared to the LH side. is that correct?

thanks
James

there is a left and right..the left mount is taller, you can see it in the pic above.

old mounts sag...some repop mounts are wrong

when you put the frame side on..was the frame pushed down?its common i dont know why..like the motor falls off the cherry picker and dents the frame down..then everything gets tight

No dents... it must just be the height difference.. its only a half inch at most..

thanks

2.5 year thread revival:

So what would the originals bolts be finished in, black oxide? I need to buy a bunch of fasteners like this. First time I used std hardware store fasteners. looked clean, but no liking that much anymore. I may, or may not install the bolts upside down, Lol. I used hardware store bolts for all the engine bolt on stuff & it would seem I tossed the originals. No idea why I did that. Long PS pump bolts especially.

Also, is there a lock washer on the nut side? I am so ticked at myself for not taking a boat load of pictures of my late father in-laws lemans. I used it for parts. stripped it & scrapped the body & frame. Was stupid crazy rusty, but was bought new by him & never messed with. I so badly want to go back in time & just put in away complete. so many details like this that I could have used as a manual. not saying everything is the same on a lemans, but both that car & my GTO were built in pontiac MI about 3 month apart. I probably only have 4 or 5 pictures of it. :(

Nuts are up, see attached photo of unmolested frame. Picture isn't good enough to see washers.

OK, also here is part of a page from the 68 assembly manual. Says the bolts can go in either way .... they show them going in from the top ... but that's way more difficult than putting them in through the bottom.

Note the two holes that get plain washers, they must be installed on the bottom regardless of which way the bolts go. Then you have three spring type lock washers under the nuts no matter which direction the bolts go in.

Just checked my frame and noticed I'm missing the lock washers under the nuts ... hope I can get them on without dropping the bolt through, since my suspension is on and it's a real pain to put those bolts with the control arms installed.

Not sure about bolt finish .... in general I think they were painted along with the frame ... so might not matter much.

Just checked the Ames catalog for the bolt kit to install the engine mount brackets ... shows black bolts ... but then it also mistakenly says they must go in from the top, and they don't include the washers that the assembly manual says MUST be used .... so, yeah .... always do research as the people selling things often don't research as well as they should.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...2&d=1522945130

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...3&d=1522945764

The hardware on my 68 convertible had a black phosphate finish. The bolts were inserted up through the frame with the lock washers and nuts on top.
There were two flat washers under the top two bolt heads on the RH engine mount only. Required because that side of the frame has slotted holes. The lower bolt hole does not get a washer nor do any of the 3 bolts on the LH mount.

I am pretty sure the mounts were installed after the frame was painted because there was black paint on the frame when I removed the mounts. There also were some sort of white chalk or grease pencil mark across the holes. I presume this was to help identify which holes to use for the mounts because there are multiple holes drilled in the frame.

Here is a photo that I posted on my restoration thread over on the GTO forum...
Hope this helps.

so where there black phosphate nuts & washers too? I realize this isn't critical, I'm just curious. I thinking the nuts on the suspension bolts where zinc, & bolts where black.

Dataway, do you have an assembly manual? Is it a GM, or third party print? I have an original 68 service manual, but would like to buy one of those assembly books. Those detail picts are very cool.

All the hardware used to bolt the engine mount brackets to the frame were black phosphate look as best as I could tell.

Recent photo....disregard all the powder dust.....just finished block sanding the primer ...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...5af258739a.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...aa0addea64.jpg

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Nice picts. That dust always glows with a camera flash too. Are your control arm bushings natural, or did you protect them with something? Looks nice.

PS, looks like your springs are natural painted? Have more picts?

The control arm bushings had some sort of plating on them so I just used them as they came out of the box. Purchased all my stuff from AMES.

The springs were blasted and then painted with POR Cast Manifold Gray. I use it out of a pint can and apply it with a sponge brush. Best stuff that I have ever used on exhaust manifolds since it doesn't burn or change colors. I also use it on the cylinder head exhaust ports and intake manifold cross over under the engine color paint. Also used it on steering boxes, master cylinders etc when bare cast finish is what I am trying to go for. Looks pretty good on the springs so I went with it even though it's not exactly correct. Being spring steel....the bare coils would likely be a little darker than the grey I used but it looks good enough for me.

Here are some pics from chassis assembly. I had to slap it together quickly because I needed to mount the body on it for the quarter panel replacement. Some things are not correct, will go back later and fix those items. The rear springs are black because those were purchased new. Looked like the rear of the car sagged a bit more than I liked so I ordered some stiffer springs from Ames. I left them black and attached the (incorrect) spring tag as a visual clue to remind me they are not original to the car. The detail tag kit I bought for my car from Ames didn't have the correct part numbers or codes on many of tags so the kit wasn't much use to me. I am not planning on 'tagging up' the car anyway so I guess it's going to be fine. I still have my original springs....painted just like the front so I can always pop them in later if desired.

On a side note....
Hopefully someone noticed two different drums on the photo of the rear axle. They both fit, but one is probably a replacement. Does anyone know which one looks more correct for 1968 model? At this point I am thinking the LH drum looks like it might be for a 67 car so I am holding off on applying the ZL tag to that drum until I figure out if it's correct. (had to make the ZL tag myself since the one in the kit was for a different axle ratio....)

I can't say I know what the originals look like, but the left side on your axle looks a bit too deep. I don't believe they ever went past the backing plate that far?

Guessing your bushing are Moog. I think thats pretty much what everyone is selling that is closest to original. I assumed they were bare steel, interesting that they have a coating on them. I am on the fence yet about using the energy suspension ones I have, or buying the moog. I might order them to have a closer look.

The scan is from a 69 Assembly Manual re-print. The loose leaf version ... comes in very handy IF you have the table of contents printed out. Someone went through the whole thing and made up a table of contents ... downloaded it somewhere on this forum. Makes the manual about 1000% more useful.

The drum on the right looks likes the rears I have seen on 68's.

The typical Moog bushings have a dull zinc plate on them, at least that is what it looks like to me. It's not paint anyway, nor is it bare steel.

Purely .... where did you get the lock nuts you used under the nuts? I noticed the Ames kit doesn't include them. I have a selection of black oxide lock nuts, and some shiny zinc ones, but the factory stuff was usually that dull gray zinc.

I used that POR Cast Manifold Gray on my exhaust manifolds ... excellent stuff, at least the way it goes on, covers and dries. Haven't run the engine yet. Also found the "Spray Gray" from Eastwood to be pretty good for stuff like sway bar, control arm shafts etc.

Also ... what order did you run lines top to bottom ... Fuel Supply - Fuel Return - Brake ?

Interesting, here I though the Moog bushings were bare steel. I see my local autoparts store has the upper fronts in stock, I'll stop in there & take a look. I have seen several google images of new ones where rust can be seen. Made me wonder. Maybe install them & brush on some rust prevention magic for good measure? I'm going to order some of that soon & see if its as good as they say. When I restored my chassis the first time around I installed energy suspension bushings to stiffen up the car a bit. Now I am not so sure I care about that anymore. I love the clean look of the yellow cad finish, but its so obvious what they are. I initially bought them to try & prevent wheel hop.

I used a coating on my manifolds that was supposed to be like a porcelain based paint. It looked great & seemed to hold up well. Even after breaking in my camshaft, nothing burned off, they looked exactly the same. However, fast forward 10 years & they are rusting again. Never run, or driven. Just started up a couple times over the last decade to keep the engine lubricated inside.

I am going to send them out to have them ceramic coated this time. Just not sure where yet. Found a few places here in Wisconsin.

The coating on the moog stuff may be some kind of sacrificial coating to protect during storage and ease installation. Actually it seems probably too soft to be zinc, could be some kind of cold oxide treatment. It almost feels dusty ... might hold up well if oiled after installation.
Problem with painting them is it will probably get destroyed while installing them.

I was thinking the same thing...about the LH drum running back too deep. IIRC, they both had the same 2 letter code cast in the drum but very different date codes. One date would tend to be for a 67 model while the other would be for early 68. My car is late May 68 so maybe neither drum is original? I think the one on the right looks more correct though. Will keep an eye out for another one and install it later.

For now it won't hold me up. Have to get this thing finished already...

Yeah, I think they were Moog bushings. Not bare steel though. If they were bare then I would have cleared them first. I lubed them before pressing so the dull zinc finish (or whatever it is) would not get too damaged. I also filled the receiving holes in the control arms since those were powder coated.

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no doubt painting would never work, unless a guy wanted to methodically tape everything off after pressing them into the control arms. I'm going to pick up a set just to see what they look like.

What I don't want is to have them rusty in 5 years. I torment myself with stuff like this. :D

I reused the original lock nuts. Hardware our here in AZ doesn't usually rust much so we can usually wire wheel them clean and then refinish and reuse. Many times I am able to see signs of the original finish when I take stuff apart for the first time but sometimes it's hard to tell. I make notes on the index card that goes in the bag for what the finish should be. I usually clean and refinish the hardware just before I need to use it vs doing them all months before and storing until needed. I did that on other cars and then second guessed myself on the finishes later. Now I leave them how they came apart until just before I need them and study the finishes and witness marks again. Helps to answer questions that come up later about orientation, what order things were stacked etc.

Yes, lines top to bottom are fuel supply, fuel return and brake on bottom. The fuel supply lines are clipped together with little black S shaped clips. My original lines had no visible signs of tags anywhere that I could detect.

The POR cast manifold stuff holds up. I have been using it for years. Here is a photo of the engine compartment of our '61. Finished this in 2014 I think. We drive this car about once a week. Manifolds look exactly the same as when this photo was taken.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...b1ffc583c9.jpg

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Posted a crappy photo the first time...
Here is another one that I dug up. Shows the manifolds better. Have driven the heck out of this car and the manifold paint still looks perfect.

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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...7a29aa8e1d.jpg

Well, the Moog is no longer what it was. Probably another Federal mogul thing...

Just picked up a a pair & these have been dunked is some sort of cheesy paint. Not only is it semi gloss black, the finish is quite horrible.

Back to the drawing board......

.http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...3&d=1523034949

What is that? A 409? Cool engines, love the strange stuff.

Something looks wrong there with that bushing. I've never seen one that messed up looking. I bet there is rust under that paint or whatever it is. I'd consider taking them back. If the metal under that paint is that rough it would be totally unacceptable. Looks almost like a customer returned old pieces that they painted to get a refund and kept the new ones.

I've noticed lately with my stuff from Rock Auto that almost all the boxes/packages have already been opened .... doesn't give me much confidence in the parts.

Bushing should look something like this. GM pieces are of noticeably better quality ... probably not enough to matter, but in your hand you can see the difference.

It's a 348 cubic inch engine. Later (1962) was bored and stroked to become the famous 409. We call them "W" engines....not sure exactly why. Maybe because the valve covers looks like a W or maybe because the cylinders are wedge shaped....maybe both reasons?

The 348 was Chevy's first try at a big block. Very successful but limited with what modification could be used so the hot rod crowd migrated towards other designs that could be fiddled with more. The car in that photo is a 1961 Bel Air with the optional 348 engine and manual trans. Very rare since most 348 engines we're ordered with the higher trim level Impala instead. Rare to see a Bel Air with the big engine. Father in law has owned that car since new. He worked at Chevrolet dealership in town and bought that car straight off the train when it rolled into town. (Built at LA plant...)
Cool car.

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My guess is its a change in production & probably another Moog drop in quality via Federal Mogul, But thats my guess. They came in sealed bags, & they had three sets in stock. All of them identical. They appear to me to be dipped.

I won't be going this route & there's a good chance the ones that have the gray Zinc will be disappearing soon. Part number Moog # K5196 "Made in India"

You can call Ames and see what theirs are like. That is where I got my set from.

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Unacceptable on the crappy finsh control arm bushings.

Id start hitting the local parts stores looking for older stock moog

I guess it's possible with stock for older cars sitting around longer and longer these days maybe the old finish was holding up and people were getting rusty parts in their boxes so they went with a new coating.
Still, I'd want to know that the metal underneath was as smooth as it's supposed to be or it won't press well.

Unlike some, I like the old Chevies, they made some cool stuff with lots of strange performance options.

I'll put a caliper on it later today. My guess is the coating is only so it looks reasonable in the persons hands before install, But I'm thinking it would all scrape off on the press fitting area.

Just maybe, They have more than one plant making them & the bushings Ames and others have are still the original style & the box parts stores have this garbage?

Yep, thick paint coating on the "new" version of the K5196 will for sure scrape off when installed. Appears to be bare stamped steel underneath.

As far as the motor mount nuts. I took some new grade 5 nuts & bolts, lightly bead blasted them & painted them with an implement grade flat black.
Actually looks pretty good & might hold up a lot better in the long term. I'll give them a try & post some picts later.

I put 1/8" washers on the backside, so not as much threads exposed as there would be otherwise.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...8&d=1523302185

That's what I plan on doing ... I have a bunch of the right size black finished washers in the hardware bin.

Lots hope that great looking frame doesn't get covered in too much dust before you finish :)

I was going to paint the brackets black, but then I was seeing some natural. I went natural just to break it up a little. Not that you can seem much of them all said & done.

I had a lot of original fasteners re-plated (incorrectly) in clear cad years back. I might do the same thing to my power steering bolts & washers. The paint looks so dang close, & a painted cad plated bolt will probably hold up perfectly over time & then they are still the originals too

I was just thinking. I know the washers are shown in the manual, but is it possible the went under the bolt head when installed upside-down? Those original picts you guys posted, I can't quite see the washers under the nuts. I'm fine with how they are & my car will have a bunch of things not correct, but for conversation sake I thought I would ask as others might be more original purist than I am. ;)

The washers are inside the cross member no matter which way the bolts are installed. If the nuts and lock washers are exposed then the flat washers are under the bolt head on the two upper bolts on the RH side.

The lower hole and the 3 bolts on the LH mount don't need the flat washers since the holes in the cross member are just big enough for the hardware. The reason for the two flat washers is because the upper holes on the RH side are slotted so the washers are needed.

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I get the underside washer because of the two slotted openings, I meant the washers that are on top of the mounts. I decided to incorrectly put washers under all 6 bolts heads (in the cross member) to keep the thread length the same. I was just wondering about the washers under the nuts on top of the mounts. would almost make sense that they wouldn't have any. Sorry if I explained myself wrong.

Oh okay. I misunderstood. There should be lock washers under the nuts. Your photo looks good. Are those lock washers that I see there in your pic?

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yes, flat washers underneath, lock washers under the nuts. :)

So how about the cross member rail brackets? same thing? grade 5 black finish, nut & washer in black? or something else?

The hardware in my car was black phosphate bolts with silver cad nuts and washers. However, the engine and trans was replaced by the time I purchased the car so I am not confident the hardware is original. Looked correct but I don't know for sure.

Where they lock washers?

I found this in the 69 assembly manual. Not sure why there isn't a 68 reprint manual out there, but I would think this might be the same.

I think they were lock washers. The 68 manual was revised to become the 69 manual so that is why there aren't any reprints available. Some pages survived though and those are included in the higher quality version reprint of the 69 manual. Sometimes the revision notes are detailed enough and you can work your way backwards to make an educated guess what the 68 verision might have looked like. It's like forensic detective work though.... :)