Going Old Faithful Hybrid Roller - Any tips?
 

I decided to go with a cam that matches the potential of my SD CNC'd 295 KRE heads. Based on the collective experience of many on this board, I decided to not reinvent the wheel here and go with the OF cam. I have never liked hydraulic lifters so the good experience that many have had with Crower's solid rollers with HIPPA made the hybrid choice an easy one.

At this point I secured the cam and roller lifters from Paul Knippen's Muscle Motors (thanks Paul for the service and good advice). I reconfigured the IH of my 99383 springs to 1.770. This gives me a calculated spring pressures of 160lbs on the seat and open pressure of 399lbs. This matches what Dave has previously recommended and Cliff and others have been successful running. I have checked all of the clearance but visually, this cam looks like it is going to put a serious hurt on these springs but many have used them successfully. Outside of Steve C. saying I need more pressure, any other concerns?

My old 5/16" .080 wall pushrods ended up producing an acceptable pattern on the valve stem so I would like to use them. However, Cliff did mention that he sees witness marks from flex so both he and Paul are recommending the .116 wall pushrods. I'm leaning towards replacing them but this has already cost a fortune........thoughts?

I already took a fine file to the cam gear to take the sharp edges off. I run the 80psi pump with a squirter in the gallery plug. I really don't have much of a choice but any concerns running the BOP gear?

Butlers .116 pushrods are $129.....I think.

is a mega brace required with this cam? I'd worry more about the lifter bores then the springs.

If your .080 wall pushrods are the correct length, by all means you should use them.

I run the road paver with 200 on the seats and 600 open with no brace.That small of cam and little spring pressure wont need it.Tom

Not even close.

No worries until approaching 200 duration at .200" lift.

Use the 116 wall pushrods, From Mike jones of jones racing cams , when I was running the hybrid setup...

With a hydraulic roller cam, running solid roller lifters. If you're hot lash is more then .006" x Rocker Ratio, you're off the end of the ramp, and not doing your valvetrain any good, so if you have to go to .003" cold, to keep the lash point below .006" x Rocker Ratio, then set it at .003"

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If measured and confirmed, there should be no issues with 160 lbs pressure. A fwiw, my Comp Cams Rep recommends at least 150 lbs minimum after run in with that set up.


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Personally if it were my project I would verify the actual spring pressure, not guess. Measure them with their retainers in place at the actual measured and verified installed height on the cylinder heads with a Rimac machine. Never trust catalog stated pressures, they can and do vary.



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Steve,I'm going to run 180 on the seats with the hyd rollers!Tom

That's how you make power with a hydraulic roller! :)

Thanks Guys. I almost forgot to mention the valley pan. I have the 66290-H16 lifters and a late model valley pan. Any clearance problems with this combination?

I hear you and if the combination was untried, I would do that. However, many folks are running this exact cam with this exact spring in these heads at a marginally higher IH without an issue. So to some extent, whatever actual measured pressure they are at seems to work for others. I don't know if I would characterize using Crane's specs and using the calculations at your IH and open lift as a guess but I acknowledge, a measurement would be best.

Now I could run into a bad spring but they worked well with the previous cam and only have a couple hundred miles on them.

I also say you should have more pressure!Lofting roller lifters is hard on the valve train.Really no down side and only upside.Tom

Outside of increasing the need for the thicker wall pushrods, probably pulling the heads for a spring change, resetting the IH, replacing the head and intake gaskets, springs and possibly spring retainers. Cliff claims to be running up to 6000 with slightly lower pressures (either he or Dave B. posted earlier 140-145/380 @ IH 1.790-1.810 according to my notes). I'm planning on setting my rev limiter at 5800 and using a factory intake this time around. IIRC, there are not a lot of springs that increase pressure while fitting in essentially the same space. It makes sense to consider replacing the springs with something else next time my heads are off.

I have verified those same springs at a IH of 1.750 their only at 145, so your's being taller yet will be a tad less. I also tested mine at 1.800 and they were only 130, those springs only had 7 passes on them too. My car was fine , u will be too..

My statement- "Never trust catalog stated pressures, they can and do vary"

Here is a personal example from a previous set of Lunati valve springs I purchased. They were rated in the spec sheet to be 200 lbs seat pressure at 1.850" installed height. When measured on a Rimac machine they actually measured much higher. I called the shop I bought them from and they removed two sets from their shelf, same batch of springs mine came from. They were around 230 lbs at 1.900". If installed at the lower rated installed height they would of been way off. They went on the cylinder heads at 1.917"-1.920" installed height with 219-220 lbs.

My Crane spec sheet on hand suggests the 99893 spring is 167 lbs at 1.750" and 149 lbs at 1.800". Are we guessing what they are going to be at 1.770" installed height ?

From the Crane catalog.... "Note: Spring tensions often vary measurably within the same production runs; therefore it is recommended that EACH SPRING BE TESTED on an accurate spring tester and the springs installed at the recommended SEAT PRESSURE"

My engine builder checks new valve springs before he installs them. NEVER trust the published figures ! And very important springs can lose pressure after run in and over time. Personally we check my valve springs once a year at the same time we check the valve lash.

You lose enough spring pressure and the lifter loses contact on the lobe as the valve closes, if this is the situation .... and note this is important..... after time the springs will further deteriorate to the point it can cause issues other than nosing over at rpm. When people call it 'valve float', more often than not this is what happens.

Always run enough seat pressure to control the valve action as it returns to the seat. Heavier valves require more seat pressure. Strong, lightweight valves require less seat pressure. When in doubt, run slightly more seat pressure . . . not less.

And yes, in the opinion of many 160 lbs seat pressure on a solid roller set up could be marginal.

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Darby....

So that there is no misunderstanding, and possibly to correct my notes on hand.

I'm of the impression that when you tested your 99893 springs years ago and they tested at only 130 lbs that your car at the time was showing signs of nosing over at rpm on the track. And that is why you put in new springs.

If this is incorrect, my apologies for communicating in the past that was the situation.



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Steve I think it was more cause i was having issues with the hyd lifters and was sick of the ticking etc? So Then I checked my old ones when going to the hybrid setup, and thats when i bought new, and then had them checked at my New IH?

Great thread.
Have some new solid Morels and a OF that i have been running. Looking at spring pressures now....Like your thoughts on this Steve.

Thanks Darby.

My notes on this specific hybrid solid roller subject go back a few years and I don't want to be purposely misleading with my information. I know Tom has run the set up for a long time and his comments are always helpful.

My thoughts on the subject... Like Tom I'm a strong advocate for adequate spring pressure ! His statement here... "Really no down side and only upside"

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Maybe I am not doing this right. Crane specs the spring at 130 lbs @ 1.850. The stated spring rate is 391 ibs/in. My installed height is 1.770 which is .08 less. The pressure gained from decreasing the IH from 1.850 to 1.770 would be .08 X 391 or 31 lbs. I added the 31 lbs to the 130 and arrive at 161 lbs @ 1.770. Marginal? Maybe, but others have run this successfully.

Conceptually, if there were multiple examples of others who successfully ran this set up and measured theirs at 75 lbs (just to illustrate an example), would not that imply the springs at this IH are sufficient for the parameters they run their engines regardless of pressure?

That being said, I value your thoughts on spring pressure they are not lost on me. That is why you were mentioned in my first question. I am on a budget and I wanted to do this for a reasonable cost. If that means I have to limit the RPM, that is a consequence I accept. This is not a track car, nor has it ever been or will probably be at the track. Certainly, if I was starting with a clean sheet of paper, I doubt if this is the spring I would have chosen. But to make a spring change at this point would represent a fairly major undertaking. For me this started out as fixing a spun rod bearing and has spiraled into spending an additional $1,000 to replace a cam I was perfectly happy with.

Gee, you sound just like me. I'm tearing my engine down for what I think is a rod knock and now i'm thinking about spending $1000's on a roller cam from SD and possibly more port work on my fairly new KRE heads.

I have posted this more than once.When Comp came out with their hyd roller cams I ordered a cam and kit for a RA V build.After getting it I called Comp and asked if they were OK with their lifters at 6000 to 6500.They called me back and asked me to send the kit back and they replaced them with solid rollers and springs and wanted 200 on the seats with 600 open and set at 6 thou.I have run the hybrid for more than 15 years.Now with the hyd roller lifters being proven at more than 7000 I have changed to their lifters.Have my last 3 engines with them and just ordered a set to replace the solids in my 421 SD engine.My last build made HP to close to 7000.For a hipo street engine I no longer see the need for the hybrid setup.Again I run higher spring pressures.Comp told me no issues with 180. FWIW,Tom

Nothing against SD. Dave did a nice job on my heads but the shipping was stupid expensive. I would drop Paul K a line @ (630) 400-4441 as his part prices were very competitive and he does cylinder head porting. He has done some machine work for me as well and I have been happy with his work and service each time.

I was unable to find a HR lifter that restricted oil to the top end while offering pin oiling for the roller bearings. Again, many have had good experience with the Crower 66260H so that was a major factor as that can't be said with many HR roller lifters.

Well, for reasons outside of the scope of this post, this 455 is on it's final go around. If it doesn't hold together for awhile, it's getting replaced by a 400 based motor as I already have a virgin 71 400 block. I hope by then the heads will need a freshen up which will include provisions for a spring with a bit more girth to it and ability to achieve the kind of spring pressures you are recommending.

I must admit I have not used any hydraulic lifters in over 20 years. All my different engine combinations used in my car since then have been solid roller cams. And never a hybrid solid roller set up.

I have a friend here in town that changed from a Comp XE 242 solid roller cam to the Old Faithful hydraulic roller a few years ago, he used his Crower solid roller lifters and retained his solid roller valve springs. Today they are probably 180+ pounds seat pressure and he sleeps well !

And again my Comp Rep said a minimum of 150 lbs on the seat with the OF cam and solid roller lifters, measured after run in. But then Comp still regurgitates the use of their 995 valve spring with 115 lbs seat pressure :)


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Steve,since I have run the hybrid I had a issue one in the tempest.For some reason I checked the lash and found one a touch loose.Had bearing going bad and the lifter body was just starting to kiss the lobe.Put a fresh set of lifters in and are still in there until my sissy lifters arrive.Sometimes you get lucky and don't wipe out a engine.Tom

Doesn't matter how the math works, they don't measure as advertised, least my sets weren't close, brand new, your fine, I was fine with a new set and shifting at 5800.... Your not racing, don't sweat it n enjoy your car!! IMO

Good initial set up and keeping a close eye on the valve lash can alert you to a problem before it leads to a pernicious death of your solid roller valvetrain.


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Yeah, that is why I prefer a solid valve train as it is usually fairly easy to hear/feel if something is wearing as the lash opens up. At .005 or so, slight changes should be audible. Cliff says his is dead quiet at .006.

Anyway, I probably should have given more background of where I am to clarify what input I am looking for. The engine is back in the car with the springs set up, heads and cam installed. The only thing left for me to do was confirm the pushrod length, set the lash, install a replacement distributor drive gear and install the valley pan so those are the areas I am looking at. The main reason I brought up the valve spring pressure was to see what impact the spring pressure would have on the pushrod choice. I think I will retain the pushrods as the pattern on the value tip is good so I am down the the distributor gear and valley pan as areas that need consideration.

Steve C, Tom S and Paul K, thanks for your thoughts about the springs for my application. I want to get this motor up and running on the Crane springs. I do not disagree with you that they are marginal for my application and that I should seriously consider swapping them out after this motor has proven that it is going to stay together.

So......I was back in the Crower catalog and found 68380X2 which has the same 1.460 OD as the Crane but a .093 smaller ID. As I recall, I should not have a problem with this ID. The springs should fit in the same space as the Cranes and I may be able keep my existing retainers. They don't burst the wallet either. At an IH of 1.800 Crower claims the spring should give me 197 on the seat and 474 open. I would probably run around a 1.840 IH based on these figures. My thought is to get the motor up and running again and once I get some gentle miles on it, swap out springs and pushrods for greater peace of mind but I invite the thoughts of others.

What about bee hives?

"When I ran my 260'[email protected] Hyd roller I ran 150 seat with 405 open and at Virginia on spray, 7000 rpm thru the traps it ran perfect. I use the Beehive springs/titanium retainers as you can use less pressure with better valve control. Well Worth the extra money. Easier on parts too."

Pontiac Dude

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...hlight=Beehive


Higher rpm with less spring, means more power and reliability.



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What hyd rollers you going to run?

John,the last 3 sets have been Comp with no issue,going with them again.Tom

Thanks. Used several 857s,(no problems) 1 morel(took way too long to pump up on initial starts, otherwise ok), and one set of cranes.(noisy). Just wondered if comp was making the short travel hyd rollers for a Pontiac yet.

John,I know they make HP to 7K!Tom

I have 7 years on my Comp Hyd rollers and Crane springs..no issues.

John,I talked to a guy at Comp I have been dealing with for close to 20 years.They had issue with the last co making their hyd roller lifters.They took control of the mfg of all the parts and he said there has been almost no issue with the new ones.I think any actually MFGed in the last 3 years are the new version.Waiting for a set as we type.Tom

how many turns past zero lash are you setting them too? i had a set of the "old" comp & they started ticking after a short time, comp replaced them under warranty with the "new" 857s. new ones call for 1/2 turn past zero & the old ones were 1 full turn.

I have not actually set them my self.The last 3 engines were put together by diff people.2 by Joe Sherman racing and one by Walker Automotive.I will ask.Tom

Do you know the spring pressures?

Thinking here...there has got be a reason why the Hyd rollers are not durable. P-Dude had a big hyd roller in 535 shifting at or above 7k rpm. He swore by hyd rollers.

Is it the brand? Is it the spring pressure? combo of both? KRE says on their website they have used Lunati Hyd Roller lifter with good success. What about an isky product?

I guess my thought is, if you are going to run a hybrid setup then why not just run a street solid roller and make a lot more power?

I have no clue on the spring pressure.I did have to shim the springs when I assembled the engine since the heads were setup for a Comp 290b solid originally.

Spring pressure really helps and proper oil.Most run too heavy oil with them.Im going to run 180 on the seat with my 421 SD engine.Tom

I don't think there is a lot of experience with solid street rollers and certainly no guarantee that a lot more power would be made. At least not a lot that I could find. However, many have run the OF/Hybrid and the results are well known relative to HP,TQ, 1/4 mile times, RPM range, vacuum and idle quality. Not to mention we know what lifters, springs etc that work with this combination. I don't have a need to be a "pioneer" with a $1000 investment that I really didn't want to make in the first place.

"I don't think there is a lot of experience with solid street rollers....."

There have been examples of street Pontiac's with solid roller cams in High Performance Pontiac magazine and Pontiac Enthusiast magazine ever since I've been involved in the Hobby. The last hydraulic flat tappet cam I bought was a Comp 280H in 1990, it wasn't long after that I changed to a Crower 60450 solid roller cam and have been using nothing but solid roller cams since then.


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I agree. If a solid cam is larger it will make more power than the HR but you'll have to pile on more spring and more lash so longevity is compromised. A similar sized SR will make similar power but need more monitoring/maintenance.
The Comp Magnum HR lobes have been proven over & over to turn at least 6K RPM with the dreaded Crane 99893 spring with SR lifters. One could run a 160/450 spring for that warm & fuzzy feeling but why run 200/600 and have to replace/rebuild lifters regularly unless you like that sort of thing?

I have run 200 on the seats for more than 15 years on the comp hyd roller cams!That was what I was instructed by Comp to do.This has been argued for years.Nothing is better for both lifters and cams to control lifter bounce.Tom

FYI,said to be the best solid roller lifter is Jessel,their pontiac lifter is a SBC with diff link bars as I think most pontiac lifters are!Tom