1963 Pontiac Grand Prix Brake Shoe Bendix & Raybestos Part #'s
 

I am looking for Bendix & Raybestos brake shoe numbers for my 1963 Grand Prix.
I don't have the 8- lug wheels.

The numbers I found on Summit Racing are Bendix 264 for the Front drums
11" X 2-1/2".

Bendix 228 for the rear drums.
11" x 2.00".

I searched the archives here on Max & found nothing.
Google search turns up notta.

I have a set of Bendix PAB160R 's that I dug up recent.
Measured out 11" x 2-1/2".
I bought them back in 2012 & supposed to fit my '63 Grand Prix.

I last replaced the front & rear brake shoes back in 1998.
I used real Asbestos Lined Raybestos shoes.
I inspected recent & all is OK.
But the shoes are getting thin.

I bought a set of of Asbestos 11"x2" rear shoes from Fleabay.
On their way to me.

Very confusing the actual aftermarket part numbers used in the past & present.

1959-64 seem to be the same from some sources found.
Others say 1962-1964 P/8 Full size Pontiac only.

Thanks Guys ,

Brian R.

If you take your shoes and drums to a Brake & Clutch place they can reline them and will arch the shoes to fit the drums.

There was a clutch & brake place local in the past.
They are long closed down now.

I wont be throwing my current P/8 Brake shoes away.
I know better.

I am daily driving my '63 GP anywhere from 400-700 miles per week now.

My daily driver Suburban is down.
SBC 350 TBI died in a very bad way.
I have a replacement engine I am working on for it now.

I am driving mostly Highway miles with my 63 GP right now.
But when you must stop.....it helps having New shoes.

From Advance Auto, 228 rear, and 264 front, my local store stocks both of them, so they must fit other applications.

Thanks.

Vintage numbers seem to be different from today's.

I used to stock new riveted Bendix lining at my garage in the late 70s, and both of those numbers were good numbers roughly 40 years ago.

Ok.
I will have to pull the wheels and drums on my car.
See what I have does indeed match up or not.

The shoes fit 1959-1964 Big American Pontiac. They may also fit Oldsmobile.
The Rock Auto website lists the interchange if you click on the part #.

I think the 1962-1964 Pontiac P/8 brake shoes are unique .
Different from Oldsmibile Full Size.
I recall reading in Brad Durust Book on the 9.3 Pontiac -Olds rear axle that Oldsmobile cars had wider rear brake shoes.

My old interchange book shows Pontiac 59-63 front and Pontiac 59-63 rear as groups. 64 and 65 are different groups. Surprisingly there doesn't seem to be any interchangeability between any GM marques. Each is different which I would not have expected.
And on old verses new part numbers I would expect that old numbers which might be asbestos based lining would be different. When the government forced making asbestos obsolete I would expect the new lining material would be given a new number even though it would look like the same shoe.

Thank You.

I have not found Vintage Asbestos Brake shoes for up front.
I have Wagner Thermo Quiets for up front to try out fitment.

The Vintage Asbestos P/8 brake shoes for the rear should be in next week.

Think I will photograph & post for future reference here.

I Love these early Wide Track Pontiacs. :drive:

The 228 fits lots of cars and trucks up to 1978, mostly GM.

The 264 interchanges to many cars and trucks, it also uses the 160 number mentioned earlier.

I also noticed that the Advance Auto linings are ceramic, never expected that. I've started using ceramic linings on my daily drivers and they work fine for me with no brake dust on the wheels. Of course that's not going to be a problem with drum brakes anyway.

Napa, O'Reilley, & Autozone have similar listings.
Not sure of lining material used on each.

I like your Avitar pictures by the way.
The Winged Dirt Track Warrior doing a Wheelstand is the Best :p

Since the age of 5 I've been around dirt track racing in some form or another. After graduation when I was 18 I partnered with a guy and built a 61 bubbletop Catalina which wasn't terribly successful, it ran fine, driver wasn't too talented though. He footed the majority of the bills, and I supplied some parts and 90% of the work. He was the driver and as soon as someone showed him a fender the next corner he'd overdrive the car and spin it out.

I got tired of bustin my butt for little reward, and I split from the partnership after building a second 61 bubbletop with the same results. 3 years with no wins for all that work wasn't cutting it.

I built a 67 GTO the next year and drove it and wrenched it myself, in 2 years 13 wins. moved up a class and built the 69 GP in the signature picture. Not as good a win ratio, but a tougher class and I never got the car to corner near as well as the GTO. My daughter was born (1982) and racing took a backseat. I was in the process of building a 70 Judge replica, but never got to finish it. Although I still built Pontiac engines for local racers, did their carbs, etc.

I've always loved sprint car racing and follow it all around Ohio and Pa. There used to be a local guy in Pa, where I'm from, that ran a Pontiac powered sprint car back in the 60s.

Spnints can run a 1/4 mile dirt track in the 10 second range, to me tons more exciting watching 20 cars run on dirt 1/4 mile, than watching 2 cars run side by side on asphalt in a straight line. Yeah they pull wheelies, even in the corners.:D

Too old, and too poor to race anymore, but I just got back from a rainout of the Allstar Circuit Of Champions sprint car race that my wife and I drove an hour and a half to the track just to get rained on tonight...................:(

If anyone cares to read it I put pics and a little bit of story about my dirt track racing here: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=507440

:focus:

I am reading.
Very Kool.
Googled Frantz also. Reading too.

LaSalle Speedway, LaSalle, IL is my hometown dirt track.
I think the record there is 9-seconds with a 410 Ci Sprint car winged warrior.
Godspeed on Dirt.
1/4 mile Dirt clay high banked oval.
YES THE ADRENALINE RUSH IS AWESOME !

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That is a spare 1963 P/8 Pontiac rear brake drum.
Off a 1963 Grand Prix 9.3 rear I have with 3.23 gears Open non posi diff.

Look like the right brake shoes for front & rear.
I will try to find time this weekend & install them on '63 G.P.

Many years ago the dealership where I worked found out the hard way that just because they look the same brake shoes may have different material in the linings. The dealership put Pontiac linings on a Caddy. Fit fine but wouldn't stop the car quickly. They tried a bunch of stuff before they finally smartened up and put the correct linings on.

Yes.
I can just try the shoes. See how they perform.
Saving my old brake shows for cores to reline eventual.

Real Asbestos brake shoes are hard to find.
The rears I picked up are asbestos lined.
The fronts are modern relined, box is dated 2001 year. Made in the USA.

A quality lining should have at least a FF code imprinted on the edge of the lining. Anything lower in the alphabet such as FE is less desirable, FG is going the right way towards quality.

I'm curious why with all the improvements in brake linings since that car was new, why you'd actually want asbestos containing linings? If your intent on keeping 4 wheel drum brakes, I believe that the ceramic linings I spoke about earlier would be much better to fade resistance than the old school asbestos linings your using. Lots of white knuckle stops with both feet on the brake pedal many years ago, and even pushing as hard as possible on the brake pedal the wheels wouldn't lock up. The next step was the brake fluid was boiling and you might as well open the door and drag your foot to try and stop.

There just was never enough sweep area on those drums to stop well from higher speeds, every year since 57, Pontiac was adding significantly more power under the hood, and more sweep area in the brakes, however the brakes never kept pace with the more displacement and more power almost every model year.

I've driven a bunch of the old drum brake full size Pontiacs tons of miles, and if I was going to be driving one today disc brakes would be the first improvement I'd be looking to change, on the front at the very least. Four wheel discs along with some decent sway bars, front and rear would make a big Pontiac drive so much better. We have the technology today, why put up with 55 YO engineering?

Your car and your choice though......................:D

I have never had any issues with Asbestos linings on my 1963 Grand Prix.
I don't have any complaints with the brakes.
4- wheel Disc Wilwoods would be nice or BAER Brakes Or BREMBOS Off a Ferrari or New ZO6 Corvette.
I watched the Corvette guys run out of $ because they bought stupid ShEET.
Not needed.
Then they never drive their car let alone Street Race It.
Just Gay SHEET In my Book.

Pontiac knew what they were doing.
All of Mickey Thompsons cars were built to Drag Race & Set Land Speed Records.
And He did.
Asbestos lined brakes used .

Handling is just fine for me on the 63 Grand Prix.
I can say that.
I have an 87 C4 Corvette convertible.
The chassis is much stronger than the Moon roof coupes.

Just a FYI.
Disc brake conversions, using already available parts from parts stores, and wrecking yards:

Front https://scarebird.com/index.php?rout...&product_id=72

Rear https://scarebird.com/index.php?rout...&product_id=80

From a member right here on these forums, and very reasonably priced.

Yes, Thanks.
Scarebird is on Fleabay also.
His Disc Conversion brakes are on my watch list.

I am more interested in Frantz oil filter system before disc brake conversion on my 63 Grand Prix.

Then give Ed Greany a call (951) 897-4153, and he'll set you up with the latest design, for less than the guys in Ohio with the older style filter. He's in CA so you have a 2-3 hour time difference. Great guy to talk to, and knows more about Frantz filters than anyone I've ever talked with. Make sure to tell him Brad Yost, the Frantz dealer from Ohio sent you.

http://www.frantzoil.com/home.html

brake shoes
 

Then spend another $1500.00 ON NEW 15" TIRES AND RIMS.(15" rims to clear the calipers) then your factory hubcaps wont. fit and the beat goes on

I like the idea of the ceramic drum brake linings. You said they were from Advance Auto Parts. Any particular brand name or product line to ask for? I have been using ceramic matrix disc pads on all my fleet vehicles for a few years. Much less dusting and much quieter than the semi-metallic severe duty pads I was using. Those worked well but would wear a new rotor thinner than the discard thickness with one set of pads. So every pad replacement meant new rotors. The ceramic pads will go 2 sets between rotors. I would expect them to be pretty gentle on the drums as well. Asbestos linings are soft and easy on the drums. If people still insist on using NOS asbestos linings, I would wear a full paint respirator when working on them. Also wet the hardware and backing plates down really well so there is no dusting when working on them. Asbestos was discontinued for a reason. It was a wonderful material for brakes and clutches because it was so soft and had a great coefficient of friction. However, it has killed many people from the long strand dust particles. Use some common sense.

I am a Mechanic.
Problem is solved spraying down with CRC Brake cleaner.

I have 15" inch Rims & Tires.
Removed from my old 1978 Buick Electra.
5 on 5 bolt pattern was used by Buick till 1978 on B body cars.
The Optional Ralley style Chrome plated rims.

There is virtually no comparison between newer linings and the brown asbestos linings. The asbestos stop FAR better than the newer which contain too much metal. I recently had 2 significant panic stops in my '66 wagon, which I have these in. While I may have smelled like a tractor trailer coming down the Mtn., the brakes never faded from 65-to '0', and it was no problem stopping at all. While Disc is obviously superior, I personally believe the major hullabaloo over drums is due to the "better" more modern linings. It truly does suck trying to panic stop one of these cars with high metal content linings.

And, yes, asbestos is dangerous. Wear a respirator, an do not blow the drums clean.

I haven't installed the New Brake Shoes on my 1963 Grand Prix yet.
It was Pretty Hot Yesterday at 94 F.
I worked on my replacement 350TBI chevy Suburban engine from 5-8 pm when temps dropped cooled off.

I like everything OLD.
If I can find Vintage parts I buy them 1st.
Just the way I am.
The '63 Grand Prix does not have to Beat Hellcats Street Racing.
It would be nice too.
Its pretty fast as is now.
The brakes are actually pretty good with old asbestos brake shoes on now.
They are just close to being wore out.

Mike, here's the link To the ceramic linings, Wearever is the brand name:

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/w...ear#fragment-3

Thanks for the link. When I was first taught how to service brakes in 1968 by an "expert mechanic", the procedure was: 1. remove the wheel. 2. remove the brake drum. 3. use compressed air to blow away all the brake dust and blow out the drums. There was so much asbestos dust in the air you couldn't see your hand in front of your face. The painter at the Pontiac dealer I worked at painted all the cars in lacquer and then later enamel with hardeners and didn't wear a dust mask let alone a respirator. We WERE ALL STUPID!. Wetting everything down with brake clean is what I do also now.

The interesting thing about Drum Brakes is that many Foot Brake Drag Racers still use rear drum brakes.
Drum Brakes have more brake holding power than most standard disc brakes on launch if you don't have a trans brake equipped Turbo 400.

Yes and rear drum brakes can also be set-up to provide no drag in the rear between the drum and shoes although you will have a slightly lower pedal. Most factory type calipers front or rear have some drag on the rotor. Some believe there is a slight performance advantage there.

When the asbestos dangers associated with brake/clutch linings came out in the mid 70s a good friend of mine worked at a K Mart auto center. K Mart ordered a unit made by a company called Bishman, which essentially was a mobile solvent bath. You put the catch basin under the wheel while the car was on the lift, plugged it in and it pumped solvent through a parts cleaning brush which you used to wash the dust into the Bishman. State of the art at the time, however it was soon discarded to the back of the shop because it took longer to do a brake job, and no one wanted to remove the dirty solvent and replace it.

You have to give K Mart/Fisk credit for thinking about the mechanics health without Gov't intervention, even if the mechanics thought it was a stupid idea, which they did. The Bishman was the butt of many jokes in that store...........:D

Picture of a brake washer similar to the Bishman:

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/e...shers-sw23.png

When I was in Vo Tech in the late 60s we had a shoe arcing machine that just blew all the dust from the grinder into the air in the shop, no dust collection on it at all. I never liked the smell of brake dust so I was never the guy that blew it out with a air hose. Usually just wiped it off with a rag and did the brake job. I figured it was going to get covered in dust as soon as it was driven, the excess dust would spill out of the bottom of the drum.

The Stoddard solvent that mechanics have used to aid in cleaning parts and immersed themselves in isn't all that good for us either. Add to that brake cleaner, carb cleaner, and a host of other solvents we use on a daily basis.

Non Asbestos Brake dust is a hazard too Brad.

Thanks for sharing.

And so is sawdust, silica dust, body shop dust, and a host of other small particulate airborne dusts. Some are much more harmful than others though.

Asbestos due to the barbs on it, stays lodged in the air sacs in the lungs causing a constant irritation that can turn into cancer. Many other dusts can be expelled with the normal mucous secretions that our bodies use, asbestos is very resistant to being removed from our systems naturally.

I haven't tackled replacing the front & rear brake shoes yet.
Maybe this coming weekend.
I will wear a dust mask.
Wet down and wash off with CRC Brake cleaner.
The Red can brake cleaner.

The good news is that it takes 20-30 years for the symptoms to manifest themselves. Unless you get Meso.

The Funny thing is many of us are still alive & kicking.

Unbelievable in fact.

I don't Care.
I will a dust mask only because Brad Yost told me to.

It was a suggestion, you're free to do whatever you want to..........LOL

I sometimes wonder with all the carcinogens and chemicals I have been exposed to in my years as a mechanic, how it will effect me as I age further.