New Head Gaskets for Pontiacs
 

We have in production a new sealing system for Pontiac race motors.

Marty Palbykin designed a way to seal his motor back in the 90's to run in the Six's with this system, but no one could build it for production until now.

I will get Marty to reply on this post and explain how it works and his experiences with it.

This is for a dry deck block only. It is a 99 percent no leak sealing system. It will not burn thru and are reusable. These have been tested by Marty and others over the years. The cost is $340.00 per set.

The block has a counter bore around the cylinders to accept this sealing ring made out of engineered material for High Heat applications.

This ring will lifts with the head and still seals under the most extreme cases of added power systems.

The more pressure you create the more is seals.

This is the future of head gasket technology. No more burn out gaskets.


The next generation IA II blocks can come with this option machined in the decks.

"No more burned out head gaskets." You gonna guarantee that?

To you only Scott if you every build a car again. Ha ha.

I thought the rings expand not lift, I talked to Marty about them decades ago.....good idea!!


GTO George

These rings are not just a ring. They are engineered and have features built into the ring that grip the iron and Aluminum head. They have a top and bottom. It took us a year to get this designed so it even could be machined.

Marty will respond to this thread in depth today to tomorrow.

Just think you order your block with this sealing option and your done. The block is dry decked from the factory. So no other machine shop work need to the deck surface.

Actually sounds good!


GTO George

Great news for Pontiac people with high cylinder pressure.
There are several Pontiacs using this system now.

Some of the advantages are you may use any head you like since there is no machine work on the head.

The higher the cylinder pressure the better the seal.

At the time I was running 11.0 comp ratio and 36 psi of boost never had a ring failure.

If anyone would like to talk with me about this is my personal number.
520-444-0342

Marty Palbykin

This was tested on a Ford Pinto motor 4 cylinder with a blower and made 1100 Hp. No failures.

It was tested on a Ford Fe motor for a while too.

Every motor that it was on had no failure per Marty.

This looks like a good deal and something that's been needed for a long time for Pontiacs. Assuming it works, it's a whole lot cheaper and easier than what we had to go through to seal my cylinders (dry deck, O-rings, copper gaskets).

Can an existing IAII block be retrofitted easily?

Jim

Yes very easily done. When you purchase the set you get machine instructions to modify the block.

We have the ones for 4.350 bores in stock.

Hi Bob. Will this work with your aluminum blocks?

Yes sir. Sure will. Can cut it right into the top of the sleeve.

There is/was a company over here in the UK that used to make nitrogen filled o rings to do a similar job, a groove had to be machined into the block or head,and the hotter the o ring got ,the more the nitrogen expanded and pushed the ring into contact with the head and block surfaces. Wills Rings they were called, they were used a fair bit on the all ali Hillman Imp engines (Coventry Climax design) as these had a reputation for losing head gaskets.
I initially tried to get a set made for my turbo combo but the company were not interested in making a one off custom set and their website was a nightmare to navigate when looking for a suitable size.
Rob,are your new rings gas filled or solid?

Our rings are solid rings.

But they are designed to flex up. When the head torqued is applied to them they come under compression. When compression for the piston and gas exploding the ring will expand and follow the head when it lifts. There is a lot going on in a cylinder. Think of the chamber as a balloon. The aluminum roof is moving up and out. The heat it making the aluminum soft and it is flexing. It is small but the surface is in motion.

Are the machining instructions a secret or is there a link to them, the price for the rings seems good, wondering what the machining would cost.

Not sure the size of the o-ring in the gasket but iske makes a tool to cut grooves in the block for copper o- rings... Its about $350.. Do it yourself and the cost is minimal...

The copper o- rings work by forcing the combustion gases (trying to leak out of the cylinders) to take a "round-about" path to leak into either the air or into a different cylinder. With a ring on each cylinder, typically there is no communication path between cylinders unless the copper o- rings fail.

Someone in this topic mentioned gas (nitrogen) rings for sealing.
We use the gas rings, at work, for a lot of our engine testing prior to designing the final head gaskets for the new engine. The gas rings (if the groove is machined correctly) will allow the ring to seal the head even if the head moves upward several thousands of an inch. But if you make a mistake in the tune-up you can hurt the rings and they are expensive to purchase. Marty and I tried one set of gas rings, which I got from Don Vesco (famous Bonneville Racer), before Marty went to His and Tom Earhart's solid ring design. As Marty said, it has never failed like the previous gas ring did.

So I wish everyone good luck with this product, which has a long time line vs the current new posts.

Tom V.

The Gas Rings are about the same cost as the Isky tool to get the grooves in the block/head. But the copper material is dirt cheap once the grooves are machined in the parts.

There is no tool needed.

This is not a copper ring system.

The machine instruction come with the sealing rings.

The machine work required is very simple by design.
I did mine with a boring bar cut off tool.
This is not a fussy install by any means.

Marty

Is this a dry deck gasket only?

Curious. What compressed thicknesses is this gasket available in?

Zero. It is a dry deck. You will have to have your pistons in the hole. There is nothing between the deck and head.

Marty can explain it better.

Thanks for making these, the boost guys will love the fact that lifting the heads a little won't be a new set of gaskets.
How far in the hole will the piston need to be?
Will there be other sizes or will this size work for a smaller bore?

Depends on rod type. Most steel rods use a .040 gasket. So .040 in the hole.

Aluminum Rods need more clearance from the head to piston top.

When ordering a IA II block with a 10.300 deck height there is no change in the distance of the wrist pin to the piston top. And if you need to cut the deck to 10.230 Stock height there is still no change when using a .040 gasket.

So it is a good sealing system for a dry deck motor.

The heads lift under boost so the rings needs to float somewhat.
That is key to how they function. ( more pressure more seal)
You can plumb a water block for street cooling if needed, although it was made for a race only application.

They look like they are made from Monel.

Pretty Neat.

Monel 400.

This may change the Twin Turbo world very soon

100 psi boost levels :D

Quad Turbo layouts.

Marty, did your factory block have water in it or did the alcohol do the cooling?
Wondering if I could plug all the holes in a factory block and even the E-heads and do some reverse cooling.

what about the rings working on the aluminum head causing the head develop wear marks ?? Similar to the old head gaskets with steel o ring in them.

On my block we used both water and alcohol. ( we found the water was not necessary)

Yes we did that on Scott Schraders street car.

Yes you will get some of that.
We found if you put the heads back in the same place it was not an issue.

My concern is for guys that put a lot of hits on every year will the wear issue turn into the same issue as head gaskets -- meaning the heads need to come off every 30 to 50 pass's for replacement/ decking ect ???

It depends on how many times you take the heads off.
I went 150 passes and had no issues. Than ran a different combo on the same rings.

The reason I did the rings was we got tired of changing head gaskets.

Just a thought, but IMO you could likely stay wet deck IF you countersink the block/head water holes slightly and use either rubber o rings or Right Stuff.
Water isnt very likely to get past Martys rings if you managed a water leak, and water pressure is unlikely to get high enough to blow out o-rings or Right Stuff. (I havent used water neck gaskets in years, just RTV. No issues.)

I had the "Tiger Mod" done on my Tigers.
But I'm not boosted but run 14.8 CR.
Seems to be working.
Maybe next combo.

Wonder if any of you ever heard the name "Big Bill Edwards"?

He was running a 301 Chevy in a Ford Ranchero at Bonneville and and was making 1200 HP with the engine at 60 psi of boost pressure.

I bring this up because of Bruce Wilkie's post #35. Bruce suggests that you could use Rubber O-rings around the coolant holes between the block and the heads.

That is EXACTLY what "Big Bill Edwards" did on his little chevy engine. He also ran a sealing ring in the block that sealed to the cylinder head. Bill's ring was gas filled.
Don Vesco knew Bill personally and had bought a set of gas rings from Bill at one point.

So as I posted previously, Vesco had the first gas rings for Marty's deal made for Marty and I.
The rings worked well in "Big Bill Edwards" 4 HP per CID engine if he did not go crazy with the boost (which Bill always did).
Marty's ring design sealed up the 406 cid Pontiac engine for the 3 years it was raced and it also was making about 1600 HP.

So the Sealing Rings do work, the rubber or Viton O-rings do work.

Have fun out there.

Tom V.

Thanks Bruce and Tom seems like a good idea, how far do the sealing rings stick up above the deck?

The gas rings at work change from a round shape to an oval shape.

That means that the ring gets wider so you need a groove that allows the ring to go oval without touching the walls of the groove the ring is placed in.

The ring will compress about .015" downward without damage so the width of the groove has to be designed to allow that movement.
That also means that the ring can follow the head and still seal even with .015' vertical stretch of the head bolts around the cylinder.

Marty's ring is a different design. It still follows the head somewhat but I have not discussed with Marty how much movement of the head the solid ring will allow and still seal up. Marty could answer that question for you based on his testing.

So to answer your part of your question, the gas rings would stick up above the block deck .015" (The rings are .090" in ring tube diameter.)

Tom V.

With no barrier between the aluminum and iron, have you seen any itching between the 2 surfaces with material transfer? Any micro-welding?

Because the ring (Marty's) is being pushed equally from all sides and also upward by cylinder pressure, the ring typically tends to stay located in one spot. Now there will always be vibration in the block but the rings should not "Fret" which is a fancy engineering name for the 'Itching' you are asking about.

Tom V.

Yes thanks I'm aware of Fretting. :)

Anyways I'm not concerned about the rings. I'm concerned about the aluminum head mated to the iron block. Just as a main cap will 'fret', or any 2 metal to metal surfaces mated in the engine,.... I can see a tendency to have the head and block do the same thing.

Unless I am mis-understanding that there will be something between the head and block surfaces?

I had to remove my heads for more mods and I have this rings installed in my setup. The rings cut thru the heads surface and now I understand why it seals better. I haven't completed my project yet so I cannot share anything yet.

The potential for fretting is there when using an MLS gasket, or a metal O-ring between a head and a block. The dissimilar metals in both cases will eventually lead to a form of deterioration (fretting corrosion) if they remain in contact without a barrier. Whether or not it is referred to as corrosion or fretting, it is still not going to be happy when left in contact for a long period of time. On a race engine the timeframe the parts are together is minimized. When added to the shortened lifespan of racing engines the risk caused by dissimilar metals will be offset by the ability to seal the head. It sounds like a good compromise when gaskets cannot hold the pressure.

When using the solid rings, the rings are basically like 4.0"+ hollow "house piers" that are the only things holding the heads away from the block. So the normal surface of the block will never touch the heads surface, (cast iron to aluminum). Only the rings will touch the two dissimilar metals surfaces.

If the studs are properly selected and torqued for the rings and the head/block, the heads will not be able to move upward away from the rings and the block.

If there is some thermal growth, the heads being held securely by the studs/washers will try to expand in all directions (as will the block and rings) and still try to be clamped together.

Only the pressure in the cylinder (15%/25%) higher than NA combustion pressures will be trying to push the two parts away from each other. It will also be trying to make the sealing ring bigger in diameter and if designed correctly will lock the ring tighter into the head surface.

Tom V.

I understand how the rings seal the chamber but what about the valley pan area with oil draining back. What happens there?
Kevin

It needs to be sealed with silicone as the oil blow by and oil will be all over the engine. I put a bead around the head to seal it.

That's not accurate. The fastener is not the issue. The column of aluminum under the fastener is the weak link.

If you ever have a chance to do a pressure map on a deck(which everyone building engines should do) you might be surprised at how much a cylinder head bends when you torque the fasteners. And where clamp loads on the gasket surfaces actually occur. More load on the fastener does not equal more clamping force in most instances. Most castings I have tested are not able to withstand the torque that people try to apply with larger studs and higher loads. Instead the head deforms and bends and you have isolated clamping right under the fastener column, and nearly zero clamping force anywhere else..... due to the column compressing and not distributing load across the deck....

In other words, these types of scenarios are what are driving things like sealing rings.... improperly designed castings, and improper assembly methods.

perhaps one could copper coat the voids between the surfaces and machine the aluminum head for a cast iron insert (receiver surface) for the rings.

Exactly right! Everyone needs to absorb that. I'd also add that the "bridge strength" of the head between studs is a big deal too. Our billet funny car heads seal terrific across the whole gasket. No water jackets, approx 1" taller than a stock head and a minimum .25" wall around all studs makes it way stiffer than typical.

Eric