IA2 build - secrets or advice?
 

I'll soon be dropping off my IA2 block to Butler's shop for a 535 build for my race car. N/A build, been discussed and tweaked over past couple months with Butler staff.

I'm confident they know what they're doing, just wonder if there is anything specific that I should request or make sure they are going to do. (They are only assembling the short block)

Either now or when you get it back be sure to check the front lower Head bolt holes as many times they go into the water jacket so you will need to put sealer on what you thread into those, in fact I would check all of the head bolt holes.

If as in your sig you are running rusty Headers just note this, if they are rust scally on the inside also then your tossing out anywhere from 15 to 60 + hp!
Been there done that!

Nah I got nice newer set of headers now.

The signature stuff is all old, only thing that might get used out of that is the starter.

Good info on the head bolt threads, thanks! Initially I'll be using some ported e-heads with studs. Probably upgrade to a "bigger" head later on.

Discuss what piston to wall clearance you want and high or low oil pressure pump.

They suggested high pressure pump, but we didn't discuss piston to wall clearance, and honestly I wouldn't know where I'd want it.

It's going in a back-half 65 Lemans, fiberglass front end, trunk lid and rear bumper, and aluminum interior sheet metal. 12 point mild steel cage. Guessing the car will come out around 2800-2900 lbs once complete?

I would let the guys at Butler Performance put together a complete engine for you.

They have raced vehicles, built to your current vehicles modifications, and many more vehicles that were a lot faster.
They were racing a car like yours when they were 12 years old. That being said, they know 1000 times more about how to do the engine and chassis right vs in those early days.

If you are trying to learn how to build/maintain a race engine then stay involved in the engine build. Offer to Jim and David Butler that you will take a week off from work, "sweep some floors", and observe the engine build as it it going together. I would be surprised if you don't get a big laugh on that deal.

Tom V.

As posted above, let Butler do it all!

For others with a new aftermarket block as purchased - do not trust ANYTHING as "ready to assemble" from either of the manufactures. You would have found a four leaf clover if all the machine work on the block was truly perfect as received.

I should add this is not unique to our Pontiacs, all of the aftermarket blocks out there will need some form of machine work before being used.

To clarify, I'm having them completely build, assemble and seal up the bottom end. I will take delivery of a finished shortblock assembly. I will bolt on the heads and finish the rest of the build myself.

And now I wonder about just having them complete the long block.

I've completely assembled a couple "street" engines without incident so far. But with the kind of money invested in these parts, I prefer to let them finish the bottom end. I feel confident that I can assemble the heads and valvetrain.

I would 100% trust Butler. Just put it together and learn for yourself...

I see no issues with you finishing the engine yourself. However, you may want to check if there are big differences in any type of warranty that may come with the engine if you finish it or if they do the entire build. I get the feeling this is a hotter engine build than what you were running so there will be a bunch of top end measurements you will want to verify before putting the heads on. Off the top, you will want to check: 1. piston to valve clearance 2. spring coil bind and pressures compatible with your new camshaft 3. push rod length. 4. rocker arm wipe pattern 5. push rod clearance through the cycle, 6. Retainer to guide clearance with the new cam, 7. If applicable, tie bar clearance at top of lifter bore. There are a few things to check to make sure the total package works as well as the short block. Good luck with the new engine.

^^^ X2

It actually helps to make yourself a check list. I don't build enough to always remember everything thing to check, so a cheat sheet is a good idea.
And just port matching an intake can take you a half day sometimes. Do you plan to plug the crossover bypass? Gotta tap and plug some holes. Change the distributor gear?

Ask them for the blue print sheets, tq specs, etc... they use on the bottom end. At some point you'll pull it apart and you'll need those numbers to re-assemble.

I actually enjoy the assembly part, although degreeing the cam is my least favorite thing, and I have to trust the shops blue print specs, but whether you assemble or not they go by them too, so...

Make sure they use race main bearings with a slot instead of a round hole. Round hole starves your rods of oil at high RPMs.
I am sure they use bearings with a slot though.

when i did my 535 i ask my machinist how we were going to do the engine (him do shortblock then me put rest together and bring back for him to dyno?). he said let him assemble it completely and dyno. i said no problem. i dropped off all parts and they did everything. i got it back dynode, a/f set, broke in. all i did was pick it up and drop in the car. fired right up ready to go at Norwalk. easy peasy.

Reply
 

"I should add this is not unique to our Pontiacs, all of the aftermarket blocks out there will need some form of machine work before being used."

Warped your so right, I'm learning this as I go.... Been told everything in the block was good but we've been running into problems. Frank out in all Pontiac is been a good guy with helping out with question


Thanks Frank! Best guy I ever dealt with

So, funny story...

There was a little miscommunication/misunderstanding on my behalf.

The price I was quoted was the parts and machine work only... not assembled. Figured that out once I arrived this morning. After the sticker shock of the actual assembled shortblock estimate wore off, and some careful deliberation, I decided that I'm plenty capable of assembling the parts myself. Scary concept, but they explained how thoroughly they go through everything before shipping, and I'm aware/familiar with how thorough and meticulous I'll need to be in assembling. I've got this.

That being said, I'm already sure I'll have questions between now and the initial startup. With that, here's the first:

Anyone have a thorough checklist they use when building/assembling an engine? :D

From Lee Atkinson:

Blueprint Form

Or this:

Build Sheet

Torque Specs

:)

Ask them questions like how much money can I give you to start. How much money can I give you when the project is 1/2 complete.
Once complete, swiftly make arrangements to pay the balance and pick up the project, leave the rest to the Butlers.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

There is tremendous satisfaction in building the entire engine yourself IF everything goes properly. Only you know if you have the tools, skills and ability to get everything super clean before and during assembly. The reason for the sticker shock is the Butlers and other professionals know how much work and time it takes to build a proper race engine. They have to charge for that time. My general recommendation is to take your time, have a clean, organized, dedicated area to build in. As you measure and assemble, if something doesn't look right, stop immediately and figure out why. Do some trial assemblies, especially if it's a stroker to make sure there is proper clearance around all moving parts, including oil pans, scrapers, screens. I strongly recommend buying a proper tapered ring compressor for your bore size. This tool almost totally eliminates a twisted or broken piston ring. Have some fun and put it together!

X2 on the tapered ring compressor. I borrowed one of them nearly 20 years ago from a circle track race engine builder, and I've never used anything else since then. They are money well spent!

This is similar to how I look at building engines. Building the engine is the part of drag racing I enjoy the most. I've screwed up a good build by using the wrong oil pump drive shaft, lesson learned...hopefully the last one I learn the hard way. I take my junk to the best machinist and ask many questions. I've made phone calls to my machinist with many questions during assembly. My current engine runs better than what I asked for. I asked for 6.50's in the summer heat and I've been dialing 6.4's the last two summers.

Having been an aviation mechanic my entire adult life, I understand the importance of the "Quality Assurance" (QA) sign-off or aspect. I do my own QA inspections by taking pictures as I do each step. If you have the skills to build your own race engine then you know where the QA steps should be in the assembly process. When you get to a critical step that should have another set of eyes looking at what you did, take a picture of it. Digital pictures are cheap. You can log the assembly process using your smart phone or I-pad. Go slow and take your time, like I said, it's the best part of drag racing...build your engine and have fun doing it.

I appreciate the advise fella's!

Engine building has always been something I thoroughly enjoyed. If I hit the lottery and didn't have to work for a living, I would probably consider going to an automotive machine school and building engines for fun.

Being a Kentucky State Trooper is a fun gig, but not lucrative enough to drop over 3 months salary on just an assembled long block. I still have the car to finish and a fiancé to hide the expenses from. ;)

Happy Thanksgiving (from the cruiser) by the way!
(Edit: Not sure why pic is sideways?)

You Sir, have my respect and admiration. Blue lives matter. I wish you nothing but safety and well being. Good luck with your Poncho...

X 2

KSTTTFMF!

X3!

X4 . We pray everyday for police safety.Enjoy your build.

Agree with above. After the intense pressure of your job, building your engine will be relaxing way to spend some time. PM me if you run into any problems.

Ok, my two cents on this subject. I've built several engines thru the years and most turned out great! But I've also had my share of bad experiences. Some cheap fixes some costing in the thousand's! I'm a do it yourselfer type of person and to have someone else take control of such a vital part of my project seemed upsetting at the least! But the one thing that always bothered me is every machine shop will be all gun hoe when they're taking your money but refuse to deal with any bad results when they do happen if they didn't do the assembly. Now some of those problems arouse from them doing things and not informing me about their secret operation which intern means a different approach during assemble that I didn't know about which ended in disaster! So when I was ready to drop over $ 30,000 on my last build I let Butler handle everything including dyno testing. Assembly and blue printing was a small price to pay when you look at the big picture. It is very minor fee for the piece of mind when you see that thing singing at 8000 RPM on the dyno the first time! I know I could have assembled it and maybe even gotten the same results. I probably would have spent more on the proper tools to do the job for what I also got years of experience and piece of mind. Also Butler performance where a class act in every aspect and put my mind at ease during a large expense such as this.

Thanks fella's. I've been sworn for almost 2 years, enjoy it every day. Course some days are better than others. The support and appreciation we receive makes it much easier to handle those who aren't our biggest fans.

And the support for building the engine is most certainly appreciated as well! While I wait for the parts to get sent back, I'll go ahead and start preparing the work space, cleaning and organizing, and ordering a tapered ring compressor.

I've got a set of digital dial calipers, but sometimes question their accuracy. Recommendations on a good set of calipers?

2 Years...you're still wet behind ears son! 21.5 years on the job here. lol

Be safe, keep you head down, and watch your six brother!

I want to thank both of you for your service.
Kevin

I'd highly recommend buying some micrometers, for measuring critical dimensions. If you have to use calipers, I'd go with a quality set like Mitutoyo, but still, calipers are only going to get you within .0005", and that's only if you have the right "feel" for measuring with them.

Thank you sir!

X2- Thanks to you two, and all law enforcement for putting it on the line every day!

X3. ^^^^^^^ this!

Much appreciated!

Why they won't let me drop a twin turbo RAV headed bullet in my cruiser I do not know...

Show then these pics and say a Pontiac HP cruiser is old news and all I need is some $$$ to make it happen. (;>)

Tom V.

Thank you gentleman! It means alot!