NOT Happy with Pypes SGF70 '77 Trans Am
 

Regarding the installation of the Pypes SGF70 transverse muffler exhaust system on my 1977 Trans Am. After 6 hours of fitting, removing, modifing, and excessive cussing, I have the system about 60% completed. The X pipe, and everything forward to the headers was a good fit and straightforward.

HOWEVER..

The tailpipes are really ridiculous. Is it really that hard, or not cost effective to produce a tailpipe that is meant for the splitter tips? They will be correct for multitudes of '76-'81 Trans Ams... I hate all these extra cuts and joints caused by the adapters.

Additionally, the drivers side midpipe that goes over the axle comes dangerously close to the rear axle brake hose. Again, this is an engineering blunder, and not one mention is made of this in the supplied literature. I have found numerous posts on other sites regarding this issue.

Total time for installation was 11.5 hours. I was able to clearance the drivers side mid pipe to allow 1/2" from the brake hose. I was able to tweak the main fuel line 2/3" away from this same pipe. I am still going to apply a high heat wrap to prevent the lines from getting hot.

While the end results for the sound and appearance is good, I don't wish the installation on my worst enemy.

77' I have a 77 bandit car with SGF70 on it. Let me have a look at it in the morning and report back. It's been quite a while since we did that install.

Tell us more

Relentless

I had to head out to Carlisle, so I may not be able to give this topic the full attention that it deserves. However, I had a a minute to take a look at the back of my Bandit car and the tailpipes do have those little adapters. I realize these adapters seem excessive but we made SGF70 to fit 1st and 2nd gen Camaro's as well as 68-74 Nova's. While it's an extra step, it does allow the splitter tips to be positioned to look quite original. I'm going to have one of our tech guys post a pic of how they look on mine. We'd also have to see the underneath of the car to determine why your tips are hanging at that awkward of an angle.

My tips sit just fine. That was never one of my issues. The main issue was the driver's side over the axle pipe, which was dangerously close to the fuel line where it bends to enter the muffler. Also the pipe was almost rubbing the rubber brake hose. The tailpipes could look better without that joint that is easily seen in the wheel opening.

One of the reasons the driver side over the axle pipe gave you fits on your brake line has a little bit to do with the design of the exhaust. The way that Race Pro transverse muffler is designed has the inlets/outlets criss crossed opposite of each other, which isn't typical of the original transverse muffler.

So your driver side over the axle pipe is actually entering the top of the muffler and the tail pipe on that side comes out the bottom. On a factory transverse setup both over the axle pipes enter the bottom of the muffler originally, and the tail pipes both exit the top.

This does make things a little awkward on that side and I've run into this myself. Some cars the brake hose gets a little close, and others it's just fine. I've installed this system on 1st and 2nd Gen F-bodies (have it currently on both of our 1st and 2nd Gens) and also installed it on my X-body (Nova) Only car the brake line was even close to was my 2nd gen. Easy to deal with though.

If I had any gripe about the system though, it's related to the driver side with the tailpipe exiting out of the bottom of the muffler. It makes things more difficult when wanting to run a factory OEM tailpipe setup for a stock appearance. I did this on my 69 Z/28. I don't like the tailpipes offered from Pypes because they don't have the correct bends under the tail panel that positions the tailpipes more towards the center of the car. I also can't use the factory tailpipe hangers on a 2 1/2" pipe that is designed for a 2" tail pipe. So I had to build some pipe on that side to meet the factory tailpipe coming up from the bottom of the muffler. The end result is the appearance of factory tailpipes exiting in the correct location at the tail panel. More work but looks factory. Would have been much easier if the flow of the muffler were designed with tail pipe exits on the top (both sides) but a better flowing muffler is probably the reason for this design.

Got a pic of your brake hose?

Hi Guys, I am posting pictures of the splitters and adapters we have installed on our Bandit T/A we have in the show room. It's kinda hard to get pics of the fuel lines while it's sitting on the floor, but I'm gonna try. In the meantime, check out these pics. I also included a shot of the crossflow muffler and how it sits from the back end.

Thanks for the pics. Like the factory did, my splitters were welded on, as were the adapters. As soon as I return from Carlisle, I will raise the car and photograph the pipe/brake hose.

Here are pictures of the fuel line. I actually slid under and got a half-way decent picture. Although the pipe is close to the fuel line, the muffler & pipe isn't as hot as the up-stream system. There is plenty of fuel line to the engine to cool it too... Maybe for peace of mind, you guys can install a heat shield there or wrap the line with a heat wrap. Just a suggestion... Also what we do in the shop is take a spacer (we use 1x3 piece of wood) and put it between tight areas before clamping the system down. That'll act as a third hand while putting the final adjustment.

That's exactly the clearance (or lack thereof) I had. I reluctantly unbolted the fuel line, and re-bent it to have more clearance. I tried to not modify any part of the car. I would prefer to modify the pipes to fit the car, and not the other way around..

That's kind of an odd looking fuel line that is kicking up like that.

My 70 Formula with this system happens to be up on the rack right now. I'll shoot some pics, but I don't think my fuel lines are anything like that.

Yeah I know... there is a bracket there and I don't know what was there...

By the way... here is a video we did of the installation on the cross flow on a 75 FB. We did not use splitters though... just a "hockey stick" style.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=P...&v=LEzDmlCyA14

I referred to the Pypes Youtube video of NJSteve's 1975 Firebird prior to installing the system. I noticed that the rubber brake hose is in a different location compared to my 1977. Also, your tailpipes are tailored for those 1970-1975 style tips.

That video made the installation look so easy!

Here is a photo of the brake hose orientation I speak of:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...1&d=1492645342

From that shot it doesn't look close at all. Looking up from the bottom it looks like the hose comes off the rearend and is actually going away from the pipe. That also doesn't look like a Pypes exhaust. That's a crush bent "over the axle" pipe.

The photo was posted to show where the brake hose is. It is not my car with the Pypes system on it. On my car, the exhaust pipe is over to the left 6 inches.

Went to Burdette Bros Pontiac show yesterday. Found a guy with a 71 T/A that had the Pypes transverse system on . ask him about install . He said no problem. I bought a 70 T/A a wile ago and I'm looking to change out the flowmaster under car system that is obnoxious loud . Had him start his car . Sound was pretty nice, not bad. nice idle and revving engine noise was not crazy loud.

Looking to pick up system at Pypes car show June 16-17

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...70#post3978038

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...ighlight=sgf70

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...ighlight=sgf70

Flowmaster transverse system?

to loud. thanks

At one time there were 2 different Flowmaster transverse systems on the market. The Force II and the American Thunder. I have both systems here and have run both of them on 2 different cars.

The Force II was a mellow system, nice sound, no drone. However Flowmaster quit making this system several years ago, so it's been off the market for quite some time.

The American Thunder system lives up to it's name. It was friggin loud ALL the time no matter what, and had a ton of drone. I never liked it at all.

Unfortunately, and why I have no idea, Flowmaster only sells this American Thunder system now.

Also don't forget that neither of the FM systems were/are true dual, stainless and neither has an X-pipe. The SGF70 is the only true dual, mandrel bent, transverse mounted muffler system on the market. Incredible flow to go along with the great clearance.

The Flowmaster stuff is old tech. Back in the day when I bought those, Pypes didn't even exist. Flowmaster was one of the few (maybe 1 other choice besides a stock gardner) that even offered an aftermarket better flowing (than stock) transverse system on the market at that time.

If it's an consolation Ccass, I do run the Pypes SGF70 on 2 of my own cars here, and have installed several others. I like the system.

Have you experienced the issues I have noted, especially 1976-81 2nd gens?

It doesn't appear owners of the earlier 2nd gens have had the issues I experienced, since the fuel and brake lines are in different locations, and they don't use the splitter tips...

I haven't done the later 2nd gens (mine is a 70) and most stuff I get in here is older stuff.

But what I have experienced similar to your splitter tailpipe deal is that the way Pypes configures the tailpipes, they aren't even close to working correctly on my 69 Z/28. They exit in the wrong location, which is too far towards the outside of the car. So they don't line up with the factory indentations under the tail panel pinch welds, and basically try to exit very close to the quarter panel/trunk drop off area. Technically the tail pipes need to come in about 3 inches on each side to be correct.

So what I'm doing is taking factory Z/28 tailpipes that have the correct bends and adapting them to the Pypes exhaust system so that it will appear stock when looking at the car from the rear.

This takes some fab work but I knew this going in. As far as the rest of the system, it fit great with no issues around the brake or fuel lines.

My SGF system wore a hole in my stock metal line installed in my 75 Formula. Car started sputtering..
I had been running the system for about 7 years. It must of taken a long time to wear the hole in the metal.

Those pipes that go over the axle could be bent more upright in my opinion.

If you let the muffler hang lower than the differential center this might not be an issue. In my case I had, and still do, run the muffler so it sits no lower than the center section of the rear. The issue resolution in my case was that I had the tank out before I could remove the line to find the problem. By then the Tanks-Inc and the 1/2" ptfe fuel line upgrade idea was planted..
The original install was a hassle due also to the hangers that were included being parts store generic rubber hangers. The proper hangers they recommend were extra. I posted about that at the time.

I recently re installed this entire rear section when I upgraded the tank and lines. I trimmed the over the axle tubes on the end that goes in the muffler, and I cut off a piece of the brace up on the floorboard to give the fuel line a little more clearance. I then put some hard plastic hose on it too in that area..

I appreciate the system being available and it fits well from a ground clearance perspective, but the rear pieces can be trouble. Maybe it's typical of exhaust installs. And these 2nd Gen cars are a puzzle. On the other had the Torque Tech system I installed in the 67 GTO was as easy as hanging clothes in an empty closet.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...ight=hole+fuel

Can't say it's the same deal but I put a pypes 3" side by side true dual w x pipe on my 71FB. Ran into several fit issues (besides cramming 3 inches of pipe into a car not designed for such) after breaking for lunch and actually reading the instructions, I noticed directions said "start at rear tips and work forward ". Again, can't say it's your issue but worth noting perhaps...
Great stuff otherwise, good luck!
Steve

Definitely start at the rear. It does say that. Good point.

I think some owners expect a direct fit because they see that we made OEM downpipes, hangers and tips and we've classified the system to specifically fit for example a 1976 Trans Am. The system was never intended to be a direct fit for all these applications. Our own long time PY Forums member and exhaust guru, Tom Hand designed that system on one vehicle and from there we slowly determined that it could be used on all 1st and 2nd gen F-bodies by changing tailpipe options. Combine that with the different tailpipe exits, different tips and you have a multitude of ways that system can be installed. Then in general, that system is tricky to install since all the loose components have to meet right at the single muffler (which is also loose!) This is why we have and will always get varied opinions on how that system fits. We get 'fantastic' to 'doesn't fit' But the system does fit. We've installed over 30 of them here for customers over the years and never had to turn anyone away. :)
We continue to ask struggling customers to send us their pics and sometimes we can offer ideas on how to end the frustration. we also continue to offer our own observations and tips here on the forums. If you look deep into this forum area, you'll see a lot of contributions.

Restoration shops like Scott Tieman, Fast Automotive, Dan Jensen and many more have come back to this system many times for resto-mod type vehicles. I have it on my 1977 Bandit resto-mod and would never put anything else on it. It's hands down the best system on the market for that application. If you can figure out the jigsaw puzzle! ;)

I'm very good at jigsaw puzzles, but this was a whole other matter.

I started at the rear and worked forward, as has been discussed.

Chris, I have a hard time believeing that nobody else has mentioned the tacky multi-piece tailpipes for the 1975-81 splitter equipped 2nd gens. The multiple joints are easily seen in the rear wheel opening. It also can allow for improper and inconsistent splitter orientation and angles. Please consider producing a splitter specific tailpipe for this system....

The installation is one job I would rather forget about.

The car did benefit from this system from an appearance, exhaust note, and performance increase.

I always hang the transverse muffler in such a way that when the car is on the ground, the bottom of the muffler is actually above the lowest part of the rearend center section. I can see about 2" of the cover and the lower bolts that hold it on. Basically the muffler is only protruding below the gas tank about 2 or 3 inches at most, looking at it from the rear of the car. Hardly noticeable, and I spend some time in this area to get it "just right" for my taste. With the muffler tucked up like this, the over-axle pipes at the top are barely 1/2 to 3/4" away from the floors. By doing this, and tilting the muffler slightly at the same time, it keeps the tail pipes tight to the tail panel. Low hanging tail pipes drives me nuts on an otherwise nice car. So I work with it till I get what I want.

As far as the hangers go, I've never used any hangers supplied with an exhaust kit. I use only correct style restoration hangers that are specific to the model I'm working on. Of course these are designed to fit factory 2" or 2 1/4" systems, so I modify them in a subtle way to work with the 2 1/2" system so when looking at the car at first glance, you see factory appearing and correct hangers and clamps.
On our 69 Z/28 for instance, the tail pipe hangers supplied with the Pypes system aren't even close to working on a 1st gen. They are designed more for the second gen tail pipe configuration. 1st gen tail pipe hangers are actually up inside the wheel well beside the tires. Not at the trunk drop offs next to the gas tank like a 2nd gen.
Matter of fact, getting back to the height of the muffer, when using the factory intermediate pipe hangers on this car (they attach right before going over the axle) they placed the muffler perfectly with the over axle pipes just far enough from the floor as I described above. I didn't have to modify a thing. So in some cases, like this one, using OEM restoration hangers actually made the Pypes system fit very nice.

In a nut shell, when I buy an exhaust kit, I'm mainly after the mandrel bent pipes and performance mufflers. The rest of it I generally don't use and prefer to work with it, and plan to change things going in to satisfy myself.

Yes, I agree with you. The Torque Tech stuff is excellent!! Unfortunately they are now out of business. They were the only company out there making correct 1st gen mandrel bent 2 1/2" tailpipes that had the correct bends putting the tail pipe exit under the leaf spring like the factory did it. Unfortunately they closed doors before I could get another set from them.

It's a good system. I don't have a problem with it. I think a lot of complaints come from people that expect it to be a simple bolt on for the money they spend. Once they find out they have to cut and tweak things it changes their whole perspective. But in reality, there is no other stainless mandrel bent system on the market as economical as the Pypes system. Everything else jumps $100 in price or more.

And I completely understand there are some design influences in the system on purpose so that it can be retrofitted to various cars that use the transverse muffler. It's just the nature of something like this and I'm willing to work with that. It sure beats the alternative of running a stock crush bent gardner system and choking the car. The tail pipe dilemma on my Z/28 is a minor issue I can fix with another set of factory tailpipes.
Here is a shot of the car with it's born with exhaust system still intact (although the muffler did have 2 holes in the bottom of it, lol) Those are it's factory tail pipes with the correct bends that actually come under the leaf springs. Hard to see but the best shot I have. Look hard enough and you'll see the tailpipes once clear of the spring bend inward about 3 inches moving the tail pipes away from the quarter panels. There are 2 bends, one to come under the spring and the other to straighten the tail pipe back out.
https://youtu.be/SDMeBoQpf58

Now here's the same car with the Pypes exhaust. Here it has Pypes supplied tail pipes that dump behind the quarter panels.

https://youtu.be/5dTNw93VPEQ

private video..

"video unavailable"

CRAP!! Sorry, this video stuff is too complicated, too many settings.

I think it's fixed here....

https://youtu.be/5dTNw93VPEQ

works!

Yes. I agree that is what I did.

Yeah it is a good one.

The multi piece tailpipes have been occasionally requested. You have every right to not like the way we made them but I have them on my $60,000 Bandit car. I don't have a problem with them at all.

1. You are looking at it strictly as a 75-81 TA owner and an owner that sees how close these are to being exactly what you want. However, we simply don't get enough requests to spend the considerable amount of resources to make a specific 75-81 splitter tailpipe. Then I guarantee you if we made them and the price was $150 per kit more, then almost everyone would save the $150.

2. Keep in mind, we have a viable 75-81 TA splitter solution. Neither FlowMaster nor Magnaflow offer any solution.

That's the point I was casually trying to get across with the cost of the system and it's universal nature. You simply aren't paying a lot for the Pypes system when comparing to other stainless mandrel bent systems on the market. Pypes is a great bang for the buck.

Start investing time and resources into something that fits a very small group of people and then the price goes up. Then people start looking at other systems on the market.

I've seen the splitter tail pipe setup and I've commented on it before. Frankly I don't mind it when it comes to the tailpipes. The extra pieces in my experience give you more adjustability and movement of the splitter so it can be positioned exactly where you want. Once it's all welded up it looks just fine.

On my Z/28, which is a very high dollar car these days like Ccass has pointed out with his, I'm going to be in a very similar situation adapting the factory 2" chrome tailpipes. I'm using the existing Pypes pieces that come out of the muffler, with reducers to the 2" tail up near the rear frame rails so I can catch it with the factory hangers. It will all be welded together and ground smooth as one piece when I'm finished.

Just takes extra work but worth the effort.

:beerchug:

My point is that there were a lot of 1975-81 F-Bodies built using the splitters. It's not like you would be producing a 1972 GTO tailpipe which is super specific and low production.

Oh well.. It was worth a try.

I agree there are quite a few 75-81 splitter cars out there. I do feel bad as a Pontiac guy that we can't come through. But it's not ALL of those 75-81 splitter guys that are asking for what you want. In fact it's just a small percentage. And the reality is it would require a fairly major undertaking to make it happen. You would be very surprised at all the pieces required to make an addition like that.

You're correct. I would be surprised. You currently make the welded bracket. I had to remove part of the supplied tailpipe and weld on these short adapters:

http://pypesexhaust.com/images/F79641685.jpg

Yes, you are currently one of the few with a viable splitter solution. With that said, it could be better. You and some others are satisifed with what's there. From a business case, you don't believe it doesn't make sense for you to engineer one.

Got it loud and clear.

well I ordered my system at show last week and it is allready here. test fitted it on the floor. No problem . went together fine. Welds are nice workmanship nice.

Watched there video and spoke with the man at show with Super Cool Bar trailer and I feel good about the deal.

I have a lift, a mig with SS wire and plenty of Talent LOL

Walker still makes a splitter tail pipe with the splitter on that could be used a as template to get the right angles if you are good at cutting and splicing. It is not mandrel bent and only a 2 .25.

I personally like two piece dual muffler tailpipes - much easier to snake over the rear axle. Especially if you go 3"! Torque Tech's were two piece also as well as Walker's second gen mandrel 2.5" tailpipes that go under the bumper.

http://www.andysautosport.com/images/pypes/sgf70.jpg

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...entid=9811&d=0

The tailpipes do not go over the axle on this system. To me, they look quite simple. Apparently, they are not.

My car spent 15 days in the corner of an exhaust shop because they just didn't want to work on it with the Pypes 'kit'. Half of it ended up custom work of theirs, cutting and shutting and rebending, and to make the splitters come out in the original dents and at a suitable angle, even with larger bore. It will need extra tweaking when on the road in several years, and probably quieter mufflers, but it was a major ordeal compared to some that seem to just throw it on in their driveway in a few hours. I thought a ready-made and proven kit would save a lot of money over getting someone here to fabricate the lot from scratch, even with overseas shipping it may have cost-wise but not the hassle.