Thoughts on investment
 

I am not building this car as a retirement plan or anything and I am well aware that cars as a whole are a money pit new or used eventually but I LOVE the 64 A body Pontiacs and I am going all out on this build. I asked in a previous thread if anyone thought I was crazy for saving a tempest and the concensus was that there aren’t that many left and you should build what you want. I have a vision for this car but unfortunately it’s a very expensive one. Recently I have had some snide comments both in threads and in private messages that have got me thinking about the staggering amount of money I am really putting into this thing but at the same time when it’s done it will be MY car. I will know every screw and besides body and interior it will all be done by me. I am terribly upside down in this car right now and I haven’t even done the FUN stuff yet. Anybody else totally upside down in their car and feel ok about it? So far I’m not phased I just wish the money flowed faster so I could speed up the pace.

I have 20k in my 63 tempest convert and have not got a sniff at 14K for it.Yes,I am stupid,I just spent another $500 on it last week on the rear brakes.And yes you are in exactly the same boat as me but only worse.Tom

I am also going to insure the hell out of it and drive the wheels off of it

Probably could have have bought one all done for 1/2 the price.....and been driving it all summer. A guy I know just sold a show car for 125,000.00.... he had 140k into it.....and he said he lost his 3,000 hours he had in it also. You go into a restoration process...because you have expendable cash....and you have no intentions of selling the car.

Oh I have no intention of ever selling the car. I will have other cars come and go as always but I have never seen a Tempest at a car show and it’s just as much fun as my GTO’s and making mods isn’t sacrilege. When I had my gold 64 gto this guy came up to me at the gas pumps all friendly and asking questions about the car. We talked and then he asked me how often I GOT to drive it. I told him other than my 77 C10 that was used for working it was my only car. After that he practically attacked me about risking a classic blah blah. I basically had to end up telling him to F off to get him to leave me alone

I was at a Cruise Night in our little town.....there was a 64 Tempest parked next to a 64 GTO.....and when the people's choice was announced...it went to the Tempest.....the guy with the very nice 64 GTO ..just chuckled.

Interesting things to think about.
I have owned my TA from new. I do almost all my own work to it, so my labor is free. It still costs $$$ for parts.
I have no concerns about the $$ in it right now, or when I'm where I want it to be when I consider it done. Money IS important to me mostly because I don't have much. Driving my cool car around is my only goal or reward. Folks still honk at me and give me thumbs up, even though it doesn't look very spiffy right now.
I truly don't care what anybody thinks my car is worth, or how much I (will) have invested.
Some of my car buddies constantly obsess over $$$ in someone's old car or how much money it takes to go racing. I don't care.

Boa bla lol

Yup...that's the way I look at it....Baby gets what Baby needs ....

Im a little upside down into mine. But I try to be reasonable about it. I know people who have 30k into 80s G bodies that they would have a hard time getting 10 for. So before I even started teh project I made sure I started with something that was at least going to have some sale value. Its cute to say 'I will never sell " but who knows what life holds. You might get bored and want something else, an emergency may come up. If that emergency came it would hurt a lot more to only get a 30% return. I try to keep mine where I will at least get most of my money back out of it.

I would be more likely to trade mine personally. I know myself well enough to know Im not allowed to have straight cash in my hands. Even if I told myself Im selling to buy another car I would end up doing something dumb with it. My car isnt on the market and Im not looking to move it, but as they say everyone has their price. If I got offered a nice 61-62 Catalina they could have the firebird probably.

I am currently way upside down on my Lemans. I must have 5-6k in the drivetrain for a car that looks like a primered multi colored pos. If I had to, tho, I could transplant that drivetrain into a better shell. But yes, it is a labor of love, and a money pit for sure.

I have had too many classic cars get away that I later regretted to where I can honestly say unless it was a life and death got to have money to save a member of my family I won’t sell the car because it just doesn’t make sense to lose even more money on something when everything else is going in the tank. If you’re losing your house and you got a car you sunk 45 grand in that’s only worth 13k I’d sell my Yukon and my wife’s charger and start driving it everyday and stick her in a used car. Same thing with guns and tools. The fiscal emergency WILL pass good or bad but the items gone forever. I bought a real Winchester m1 garand for 100 bucks and a real Thompson complete with drum magazine for 300 bucks one time from a guy that was “going thru a rough time” he lived thru it ruined his credit anyway for 400 bucks

First off NEVER SELL YOUR GUNS!
Before I bought my 67 I had picked up a 67 Tempest to clone. I didn't have a ton of cash but had been wanting a gto for as long as I could remember. I bought the Tempest for 3k. It had a caddy 425 in it ran like **** and needed a ton of work. But my desire to have a goat talked me into buying it. I had a friend that was a body man come over and look at it and he said that the car probably needed 10k in metal work(quarters rockers floors). He said sell it and save your pennies to get a car worth putting that kind of money into. So I did and a few years later and a ton of research I picked a very solid numbers matching 67 GTO for a few thousand more than the tempest. I still have a ton of money in the car and will never get what I have into it. But at the end of the day I took a step back and listened to the voice of reason and spent my hard earned money wisely.
Had I not listened to the old wise man I would have still sunk money into that Tempest. But in the end that Tempest would have satisfied my desire no matter how much money I put into it! The feeling of a 60/70's Pontiac is awesome in itself. The feel you get you wouldn't care if the car was a Tempest or true GTO. Sound like your to far into your 64 so finish it the way you want and drive the HELL out of it!

My 79 TA is what is commonly called a 20 footer I asked a guy who was in the restore business if he would paint it. The said he wouldn't do it unless he stripped the car down and fixed all the under panels with new steel. He said it would cost about $14,000, but the car would be worth $40,000. I told him it wouldn't because I ain't selling it.

Based on what you say above, I can tell that you have a good perspective on your '64. You recognize the car is not a retirement plan, and understand that you are unlikely to realize any sort of profit on the car given your current direction.

I say this: Build the car the way you want it, at the pace your budget allows. If you can truly afford to be upside down in the car but it brings you joy, then go for it.

Snide comments will always be there, but you can use those comments for motivation. It's your car, your money, and your life. There are FAR worse ways to spend money.

If the build of this car is not keeping you and your family from eating regular meals, then stay at it!

Best of luck with your project!

You can look at but this way...
Say you're into golf or skiing or any number of other hobbies. You would be spending money on equipment, travel, greens fees/lift tickets, etc., etc. that you would never expect to get back. You are paying for the time spent doing something you enjoy. Your car is the same way. You might not get all of your money back if you ever sell, but you're spending money for the time spent doing something you enjoy.

Ditto, and very well said.

One thing is for sure, it's not getting any cheaper to restore these cars. Prices are continually going up, paint jobs getting more expensive, materials are outrageous now, NOS prices are off the charts if you can find them anymore etc...

It's almost always cheaper to buy one done, even the higher priced nearly 6 figure cars that are restored to perfection cost more than that to restore them.

But, car guys that enjoy this hobby aren't in it for the money and pay no mind to the end dollar amount. As long as you're having fun with it and enjoying the process, that's what counts.

Then there are the really old guys that remember what these things cost new and think everyone else is crazy with their asking prices. My dad comes to mind :D

I don't look at my GTO as an investment, I do look at it as an asset. Just like my house. I like to work on my house too, but I don't do anything to it that might reduce it's value. I wouldn't paint it purple, even though I might like purple. Just like I wouldn't sell the original engine and replace it with a 455 .... just because I like HP. I wouldn't swap transmissions just because I like manuals. So there is a place in between for people that don't have a lot of money and have to protect their assets. If I had a couple million, or a great pension it wouldn't matter nearly as much. But when closing in on retirement I have to make sure I do as little as possible to reduce my assets. I'd like a car just the way I want it, I'd also like to not live under an overpass when I'm 70.

Exactly the way I look at it. This delimma really is just like most things. Moderation is almost always the key. You can absolutely have some cake. You just probably shouldn’t have it for every meal. Things are likely to get out of hand. My car might not be a great investment, but it is worth something and I try to keep that dollar spent to value amount from getting out of control is all. Moderation.

I’ve got about 15k into the engine. Which I, sure is an awful investment lol. But if lush came to shove I could buy a running 400 or 455 to drop in and keep my motor. Cars value probably wouldn’t change that much.

There is a way to make a small fortune with these old cars... Start with a big fortune. It will be small in no time.

People make the mistake of paying "keep if forever price" for a car they think they are going to keep forever not knowing one little family tragedy or their dream car suddenly comes up for sale is heading their way. I buy all my cars like im going to sell it, I set a money limit on how much I got to sell it for and spend right up to it and thats it, I get close and it goes up for sale. My current GP has a wore out 10 footer black paint job on it that I love because its maintenance free and really has freed up a lot of money for other upgrades so I'll probably keep it awhile unless.............. someone else wants it more than I do and makes a cash offer because for me everything is for sale.

Typically the guy whose restores the car loses his butt and everyone after that can make money on it if it is something that can appreciate like a real GTO or a 50s Vette or a '62 bubbletop 409. On an A body Tempest or LeMans you are probably never going to get all of it back not matter how well done it is. But who cares? Like a friend of mine says "this is a hobby and hobbies cost money!". At least you can get "something" back, unlike folks who are into the hunting, fishing, golf, tennis, or many other hobbies - try getting some of the money spent on those back.

Stick to your guns. Have fun. Mean people will be mean. Haters will hate.
Tony

I don't get the point of threads like these? Is it to make yourself feel better about throwing money away? Commiserate with others in the same situation? Attempt to justify 'saving' a Tempest?

I like '64 Tempests, but now, as then, the GTO is king and always will be. Over the years I've seen many people try and justify 'saving' a Tempest/Lemans, 'uncloning' GTOs, etc., talking about how they are the only Tempest at a show, etc.

If you're going to pump a ton of $$ into a car, it makes no sense to start with a low end model, even if the initial cost is higher. In fact, with the possible exception of convertibles, I wouldn't even look at a Pontiac a-body that isn't a GTO to start with. I'd probably go even further and avoid certain color/option combinations as well.

It makes even less sense to do such a resto if you aren't doing 90% of the work yourself.

I can understand 'family cars' that have been passed down since original being restored in some cases, but don't try and kid yourself that it isn't a huge money pit.

If for some reason I wanted to get a nice Tempest, I'd find one that is already done and that someone else lost their shirt on.

:old:

See its comments exactly like this that I am talking about. "I wouldnt own anything but a GTO" mentality is what has gotten a lot of these cars crushed over the years. Its worse in the Pontiac community it seems than in the Chevrolet etc, I see a lot of Chevelle 300 and regular Chevy II's around here that Arent SS.

I'd rather have a Tempest and use the saved money to build it the way I wanted. Im not paying over inflated prices for and engine code that says its 20 horsepower more than a regular model.

I agree I don’t think a burnout is any less fun in a Tempest than a GTO. Remember the station wagon craze a few years back. There was a 64 Tempest 2 door conversion station wagon on the cover of last months Hot Rod. Talk about a lot of money

It's obvious over the last 20 years as the prices for real muscle car stuff has kept rising to crazy levels, it's definitely made the lesser cars more popular and more appealing. Nothing wrong with that at all. I like seeing nice old cars whether they are GTO's, SS's, or a Lemans or Malibu.
However I've noticed, like everything else, as demand goes up, so do the prices. Cars like a Tempest or a Malibu used to be dirt cheap when there were plenty of inexpensive GTO's to buy. Not so much the case anymore.

"I agree I don’t think a burnout is any less fun in a Tempest than a GTO"


"My point exactly!

I have NEVER made money on any of the muscle cars I have had.
Never!
I do pick a car that I like because, in the process of making it mine( either restore to factory original or modify to my taste) , I am going to spend alot of money. In the process, I'm going to cuss at the busted knuckles or the rusted/ frozen bolt or the less than cooperating idler arm but will not second guess the money spent on working on my car.
I am happy to be able to do most of the work my self and that is some good therapy.
Enjoy your 64!

I broke my own rule on this last car.NEVER buy a car that needs body work.Scratch and shoot maybe but NO serious body work.Tom

Yeah I would say I learned my lesson on this as well. I would even be okay with replacing floor or trunk pans. But full on paint and body sucks.

I currently own three LeMans (one is cloned with no regrets) and two GTOs so I'm not sure how I have "that mentality". I appreciate nice Tempests and LeMans but I'm not going to try and fool myself into thinking that restoring one would be a worthwhile endeavor from a financial perspective.

IIRC you were asking about investments. I stand by the fact that pouring $ into a tempest and thinking you'll get anywhere close to as much money back as dumping the same $/work into a GTO is a fools errand.

In most cases you'll lose your shirt restoring a GTO, and it won't get any better with a lower end model.

I think it's pointless to consider a car an "investment." This implies that you've thought "should I buy stocks, real estate, or a car?" and picked the car.

Yeah, I totally agree with this. Body & paint is labor intensive, and is expensive. Not to mention getting good body/paint work done is a massive challenge. Most collision shops will do more damage than good, and a resto shop charges 10x or more. Not to mention how long it will take.

You certainly can buy cars done for way less than building them, at least when it comes to body & paint. How many times have you heard someone say they are buying a car for a donor engine, trans, or differential? That's because after all that time, money, and effort the previous owner put into it still wouldn't justify spending the money to get the body and paint done.

I was watching Mecum a few weeks ago, Harrisburg I think it was, and saw some very nice stuff go across the block in the mid-20s to mid-30s range. My jaw was dropping and out loud said 'Can't even build one for that'. Shoot, for twice that even.

You definitely save big doing as much as you can yourself. And seeing some of the work shops around here folks say are 'good' makes me feel I can do it better, without ever doing any body work in my life. It's sad, and frustrating.

Sadly, to get a car to the 'next level', 9 times out of 10, requires body and paint. Just about every hobbyist can bolt stuff on, or swap an engine, but where do most cars you see in the local burger joint cruise lack? Yeah, body & paint. But once that's done, usually, it will last a long time, and at most just require a scuff & shoot in the current owner's life time.

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Yeah I broke my own rule this time too but the entry price was free. I bought the car for 2500 and sold the Tri Power for 2600. I didnt mean investment like stocks I just meant time and energy and of course money. I know they are a terrible "investment" I just dont like being told I am stupid because its not a GTO

Someone at one time said the world was round, and all ridiculed him, because of course it is flat.

Picasso's painting look perfectly fine to him.

People used to laugh at V8 Vegas, and other engine swaps.

Actually, in your case, you can do what you want with the car, and get LESS opposition, because it's NOT a GTO.

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Remember this?

http://www.speedhunters.com/2016/08/gray-ghost-rides/

https://bangshift.com/bangshiftapex/...he-gray-ghost/

Not so stupid now, eh?

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If it makes you feel any better, I'm messing with a 1980 Firebird Esprit that I got free. Originally had a V-6, and a straight body. Ended up painting myself and dumped my old 455 in it. Building for me to have fun with and learn some body and paint skills. But it ain't free no more. Just don't over build it, get back on the road and enjoy it.

Most of the non-car people will think its cool to see such an old car cruising around, they don't care of its a GTO.

It's a hobby. not an investment. You have to think of it like building a bookshelf. You get all done building it from the finest oak with a hand rubbed oil finish but when it comes time to get rid of it, the next guy says "I can go to Ikea and buy a bookshelf for $100."

You are probably going to drop $50K on this car of yours and you will be lucky to get half that back if you were to sell it. With a GTO, your % of return will be higher but you'll still take a beating. The other thing is that you're building it for you. The next guy that comes along may not care for your spin on your own car. The reality is it's just a very expensive hobby and don't think of it as an investment. You build what and how you can afford to build.

The best way is to buy a finished car and let the builder take the beating. If you are a hobbyist like me, I can wrench but I am not a body man or painter. I bought my GTO a long time ago but the principle is the same ... I found a car that was nice looking with a blown motor that the owner had given up on after a succession of spun rod bearings. After an initial shoestring rebuild, I drove the car for many years as-purchased (just replaced carpets and did some rattle can detailing under the hood). While I eventually freshened up the paint with a $900 Maaco respary (it was painted around 1985 and I bought it in 1989) I got many years of use out of the car, driving it and attending local shows and cruise nights over the years as I made incremental improvements to the body and interior.

I feel like I have spent a butt-load of money on the car in the past 5 years. In total I probably have around $25K in the car including the Initial shoe-string motor rebuild , a second proper rebuild incl new heads (both motors assembled and installed by me), the $900 respray. a second $5000 paint job (body stripped to bare metal/vinyl top left on) about 5 years ago, all new interior (seats recovered, new door panels, new steering wheel, new console, new dash panel) trans and diff rebuild, torque convertor rebuild and re-stall, new suspension w. tubular control arms F&R, springs, gas shocks and HD sway bars, front end rebuild, new custom driveshaft (car had a long tail TH400 in it and a bent driveshaft) aluminum radiator, water pump, shroud and clutch fan, alternator, Grand Cherokee steering box conversion, high torque starter, ceramic headers, new gas tank and lines, new exhaust, 4 wheel disc conversion with master and booster and wheels and tires. I did all the mechanical work myself with the exception of the trans, diff and convertor rebuilds (did the R&R) and the exhaust (I am older but smarter and know they never fit). Most recently, I put it in the paint shop to repair a rusted rear-window filler panel, repaint both rear quarters (flaws in the prior paint/metal work) and install a new vinyl top. I am guessing around $2,500 for this latest adventure.

You can't look at these cars as a substitute for an IRA unless you happened to have stumbled on an SD, RA-IV or HO at the right time and the right place.

Yup, just like old 4 doors. They are cool and don't have to be fast. Wagons too.

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I wont' have any where near 50K in mine (not including my labor, since that is a recreation). I bought the car 40 years ago for $1100, drove if for 6 years .... so ahead of the game already there. Chassis is done, engine 90% done, have about $8K cash into it now, another $10K finishes it easily. Frame off, done at my own shop. I'm a welder/fabricator, 90% of the parts, restored in my own shop in my spare time. Car was 90% complete to begin with. Will be painted by a good friend for probably $3K with a good, OEM style SS paint job. 90% all original to the vehicle parts, the rest OEM or restored used OEM, about
3% reproduction parts.

Not sure about other people doing restorations but I have the shop capabilities to do all painting except exterior body, all the welding, all the restoration except technical stuff like carbs, alternators etc. Only thing sub'ed out so far was the engine machine work.

Body is excellent .... if you added together all the rust on car it would be the size of two dollar bills, no bondo, no previous repairs. Final paint and Endura/Hideaway work will be 70% of the rest of the budget.

So ... I'll be fine and not lose a dime.
Just because one person loses a bundle, doesn't mean everyone does. I've restored vintage motorcycles for 40 years, fairly familiar with the process.

And no I don't include my labor in the cost, just like I wouldn't include time I spend playing the guitar or video games.

Similar situation here. Only thing I sub out is engine machine work. Everything else is done in house here by me, including paint and body, interior, engine, trans and rearend rebuilding etc.. So what ever materials and parts cost, including the cost of the car is pretty much my investment.
Like Dataway, my time doesn't count because on my own personal cars I consider it a hobby that I enjoy doing. I do however make a living at it, in which case I charge labor when doing customer work.

I've never lost money on a car sale, but the reasons stated above are mainly why. Another is that most everything we have here we've bought 20-30 years ago when prices were much cheaper. I hang onto things a loooong time and rarely do I sell anything.

I spent $6500.00 in parts alone for suspension, disc brake conversion, steering box. center link, toe rod ends, pitman and idler arms, parts, water pump, radiator, belts and hoses. intake, air cleaner, valve covers, tune up parts, trans cooler, radiator shroud, fan and clutch and brake lines. I installed all the parts. All machine work and parts for my motor came to around $1500.

In total, we are not that far off. Add $5,000 for my current paint, around $1500 for the interior, $450 for a new vinyl top, $250 for new stainless mouldings, $500 for a rear bumper and tail lights, $1500 for wheels and tires, $1500 to rebuild the trans, convertor and rear end plus the $3500 I paid for the car and you got $20,800. Add in $1,000 for miscellaneous stuff (wiper arms, motor and linkage, seat belts, sun visors, rear view mirror, shifter and console and other miscellaneous trim items.

Now that's if you only did things once, but over 38 years of ownership, you do things over multiple times so add my initial engine rebuild, Maaco paint, wheels and tires. a new deck lid and re-do of my rear quarters and you are right at $25K on a car that was always drivable.

The OP has a shell he is sending to AMD for back half rear sheet metal repairs, a bare block (must purchase parts to build), no usable trans and no usable rear end. He has old OEM suspension and brakes with a recent front disc conversion, needs a full interior trim out, complete body work and paint, bumper restoration and has chosen to build along the lines of a pro-touring car with a high-horsepower fuel-injected 455 stroker, 5-6 speed trans, Ford 9" rear, trick suspension and state of the art cooling.

I do not know how complete his car is at present or the condition of his glass and trim, but suffice to say that it is a 1 year only car and replacement parts carry a premium.

-Its not an investment. It's a hobby that leaves an asset.....

- That is unless you're fool enough to take loans on it or rack up credit card bills, then it's a liability and a hobby should NEVER be a liability.

-Who gives 2 ****s what anyone else is saying about what you decided to build. It's what was available and pickins are getting slim. I personally dig a 64 Tempest.

-Any of you guys that are concerned with "value" better sell now. Theres a collapse of "value" coming as boomers die off, hoards come out of barns and theres fewer people who want them. Reality check. Milennials don't care about your hotrod. I'm 35 and virtually no one a few years behind me care a single bit about them. Couple that with new z28s and GT350s that would dust your stock Musclecar for less than the cost of most good restorations and in another 10-15 years you can kiss your value goodbye. You should be building for the love of it.

-Who cares who cuts up what. Later this spring im going to be doing a Silversport T56 Magnum install thread. That's going to require me cutting the unmolested and perfect Freemont California built floors of my 1967 GTO HO car. Yes I have the numbers matching stuff too. I'm done caring about any of that stuff for that reason in point 4 above.

-Build it because you love it. Not because you intend to sell for a profit....because you're not going even come close to breaking even. It's a giant moneypit. A loud, beautiful, unique, stylish, stone cold badass moneypit.

I bought my first GTO to restore in 1979 and have lost count at the number of GTO's and other Pontiacs I've purchased over the past nearly 40 years. Probably close to 50 or so. I never bought one as an investment, but I did expect to be able to come out ahead when and if the time came to sell. I was always able to buy a restorable car, do a lot of the work myself, and come out ahead when I sold it. In the past few years I found that I couldn't afford to buy anything that needed body and paint work or major mechanical work. And now that I can't do very much work at all I've realized that if I ever desire to own another Pontiac it will have to be already done. That's the only way you can come close to staying above water nowadays is to buy one already done. Buy the best you can afford!

Scuff and Shoot.......love it when people come into the shop looking for that Option.....lol....or they say " it don't have to be perfect" .....watch out for those people.

My next Pontiac will be a low value, driver .... Lemans or something. Needing just enough work to make me feel good about myself. But then .... it's so hard to just walk away from that rusty part that still works .... might be better with just a bit of paint, or maybe I should take it off and blast it and paint, or maybe go to napa and buy a new part, or maybe find an NOS one .... and there you are ... in the mess again.

If I were going to go that route I think I would do it myself. I’m under no illusions that I could churn out a chip foose paint job. But if I had a cheap car that was otherwise straight and just wanted a 20 footer quality paint job. I’m convinced me and Eastwood could pull it off. In fact it’s something I want to try on a cheap 240z or something.