64 versus 65 bracket differences?
 

I put a 65 326 in a 64 Lemans.

The 65 motor was, I believe, no power steering since it came with a single pulley on the water pump but not for any power steering.

I used the brackets for the power steering and alternator from the 64 326, I also had to use the Crankshaft double pulley and double pulley for the water pump from the 64 so the power steering and alternator pulleys would line up.

The crankshaft pulley originally on the 65 would not work, the grooves were closer to the radiator by a full groove.

Currently everything lines up but I want to add the Vintage Air system and I am having trouble finding an add on single pulley that will work.

I have been recommended a triple pulley from RAM Air Restoration but I don't want to keep buying pulleys that are supposed to work but not line up with the alternator and power steering pulleys.

Yes, the '65 crank pulley will not work with '64 power steering and alternator brackets. There is a '64 add-on third pulley that will fit the non A/C crank pulleys. That's your best bet to getting everything to fit.

Dick, not sure I agree or else I am misunderstanding what you are saying.

The '64 pulley set-up for A/C used a specific Balancer Assembly that was always 2 groove. Two different groove dias. were employed.

Likewise, the WP pulley was 2 groove and also employed 2 different groove dias. when e/w A/C.

The A/C drive belt ran off the front groove, the rear groove drove the Alt and the PS pump. The PS pulley was single groove, the Tempest version was smaller dia. (p/n 544840, 6-21/32" dia), the big car version was larger (p/n 9774454, 7-5/8" dia).

Early '64 with PS but WITHOUT A/C used a twin belt set-up, 2 identical belts wrapped around twin groove pulleys on the Balancer Assembly, WP pulley, Alt., and PS pump.

Late '64 (like from about mid-Feb on), the PS but WITHOUT A//C was revised. The Balancer and WP pulley remained unchanged but the Alt and PS pump pulleys were revised to be single groove for each. In this set-up, the rear belt drove the Alt, the front belt drove the PS pump. Both belts still wrapped the Balancer and WP pulley but the belts were revised to 2 different lengths.

I'm not aware of a '64 set-up that used a 3rd pulley for A/C.

Halfway, it sounds like you have a complete '64 set-up for use with PS WITHOUT A/C such that your Alt and PS pump are driven by separate belts (grooves not aligned).

What you need is the '64 PS pump pulley for use WITH A/C. That pulley will align your Alt and PS pump pulleys so that they are driven by the same belt.

That would free up the front groove of your Balancer and WP pulley to drive the compressor pulley.

I don't know how critical it is to use the smaller dia. front grooves as used to drive the compressor in the factory set-up.

I believe I have a '64 WP pulley for the A/C application if you discover you need it. Let me know. Don't have the PS pump pulley for use with A/C, nor the correct Balancer Assy for A/C application.

I'm also unsure if the geometry would be different with the '64 brackets and balancer installed on the '65 heads and crank. If so, conceivably the Alt and PS pump pulley grooves won't align even when you install the correct '64 PS pump pulley for use with A/C.

John, you are likely right about the pulley arrangement. The power steering pulley for A/C must have a different offset than the non A/C cars to allow one belt to drive both the power steering pump and alternator.

Not that this is factory, but on one one of my 64 cars with ac, and I am not sure it is correct, I made it work with exactly what you have listed.
Belt 1 goes crank , water pump, alternator, power steering ( correct for 64 with a/c)
Belt 2 goes crank, water pump, ac compressor. (I was tempted to just go crank/compressor like newer pontiacs, to keep some wear off the water pump, but didn't

Going on my 10th year of it set up that way.


With all that said, I have also owned single grove aftermarket pulleys that bolt to the crank, but jut way forwards. They came with some aftermarket a/c kits, and probably turn up on ebay from time to time. If you find one, then you could just run the compressor off of it

If your ps pump doesn't line up, you may need to get it to move forwards so it can share the belt with alternator

John, I would be interested in the power steering pulley if you think it will work. I have attached a photo of the alternator and power steering setup as it is now.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...578cc126f4.jpg

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John, sorry I read your post incorrectly. I guess I am on the hunt for either a power steering pulley for AC or another option for the crankshaft pulleys.

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Andre, I bought a single add on pulley which was advertised for the 64 but when assembled, the outer rim of the pulleys line up nicely but the inner hub plates don't touch, leaving a gap of around an 1/8" or so.

I never actually installed it, will this gap squeeze together when installed? Otherwise it too will push the grooves to far forward.



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HALFWAY, sorry I don't have the '64 PS pump pulley you would need. I only have the p/n 544594 WP pulley with the two different dia. grooves. Not sure you need to use the correct A/C drive pulleys with the two different dia. grooves for the crank and WP pulleys.

Andre, did you use the '64 A/C application crank and WP pulleys with the two different dia. grooves or the non-A/C application pulleys with two same dia. pulley grooves?

As Dick noted, the PS pump pulley that you want has a specific (deeper) offset to get the Alt pulley and the PS pump pulley grooves to align vs. the way yours is set up now.

My set-up (non-A/C) is the early style with the twin belts for PS so I don't have anything to compare to your set-up.

I haven't figured out why the big Pontiac used a different PS pump pulley vs. the Tempest in '64. In '65, they both used the same one.

In '64, the big Pontiac used a 1/2" belt, the Tempest a 3/8" belt. But even that seems odd because I don't see any specific difference in the Alt pulleys used by the big Pontiac vs. the Tempest.

So you might be able to use a '64 big Pontiac with A/C PS pump pulley in lieu of the Tempest pulley. I mention this because the 9774454 (big Pontiac) pulley may be easier to find than the 544840 Tempest pulley. I figure A/C was more common in the big Pontiacs.

As I think about it, you might also be able to use the early style PS only 2 groove PS pump pulley. The rear groove of that pulley should align with your alt pulley groove. The front groove would just be unused.

The p/n for this PS pump pulley is 9774775. It was used with PS on non-A/C big Pontiacs and Tempests. It is smaller dia. but I don't see where that will be a problem other than figuring out the belt length. Belt slippage might be a concern since you would only have a single belt wrapping this pulley vs. the twin belts that were used with it in production. Just a thought.

It might be useful to know that pulley p/n 544840 was also used for the PS with A/C for the '63 Tempest 326 application.

Hopefully somebody has one for you.

See if this helps.

HALFWAY, you might want to PM Bob Vidan. I think he had (2) of the big Pontiac 9774454 pulleys on ebay about a year ago.

At the time I put my car together I didn't have the water pump pulley with different sized grooves. Several years later I did find and still have the water pump pulley with different sized groves, but since everything was working fine, I left it alone. If someone needs that odd water pump pulley, I'd let it go.

I spoke with RAM AIR RESTORATION that makes the 3 groove crankshaft pulley, which still will not work. They do make a power steering pulley that will line up with the alternator pulley. Supposed to get it this week and I will let you all know how it works out.

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[QUOTE=John V.;5834543]Dick, not sure I agree or else I am misunderstanding what you are saying.

The '64 pulley set-up for A/C used a specific Balancer Assembly that was always 2 groove. Two different groove dias. were employed.

Likewise, the WP pulley was 2 groove and also employed 2 different groove dias. when e/w A/C.

I'm not aware of a '64 set-up that used a 3rd pulley for A/C.

John I think the mention of a 3rd pulley was really a 2nd rear most pulley. The a/c crank pulley used a 4 piece assembly which included the damper, a single pulley and the rear most single pulley along with the crank snout This was serviced only as an assembly. No individual pulleys, damper or snout were available. As yes, the pulleys were different size diameter as you mentioned. Just adding the single rear most pulley if you can find one, might help but those darn Pontiacs have year and use specific pulleys and can really be a problem mixing and matching. Adding an 1/8 inch of the rear pulley will push everything else out of line.

[QUOTE=War eagle;5835329]W.E., perhaps that is what Dick was thinking, not a production arrangement either way. But thanks for the refresher describing the pulleys on the '64 A/C Balancer Assembly, seem to recall that was discussed once before. Never had one and forgot that the 2 grooves were created by 2 separate pulleys for the A/C Balancer.

The non-A/C Balancer was likewise only serviced as a complete assembly, I believe it used the same weight ring and hub as the A/C balancer. The two grooves were same dia. and used a single pulley, not separate as on the A/C Balancer, see pix of my disassembled Balancer Assembly.

I gather it would be physically possible to add the 2nd rearmost pulley from an A/C Balancer to the two groove pulley on the non-A/C Balancer to create 3 grooves.

But it sounds like that would be a Frankenstein creation that likely won't align with HALFWAY's existing Alt pulley and/or his PS pulley.

HALFWAY, hopefully the RA RESTO PS pulley will do the trick and free up your front crank and WP groove to drive the compressor, assuming you can get the compressor pulley to align with that groove.

Let us know how it works out.

After speaking with the tech at Vintage Air, they do have a three groove pulley that will work for the 64.

The compressor will only line up with the inner most pulley on the crank.

I am returning the power steering pulley and the Vintage Air system should arrive today.

I will take some pictures along the way.

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Received the kit and checked the crank pulley, no go, too deep, hoping they sent the wrong one.

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Called their tech support and the pulley they sent was supposed to be correct but no way the existing pulleys for the alternator and power steering.

They say this has not come up before.

Has anyone installed the Vintage Air system on a 64 with no AC but with the separate alternator and power steering?

Waiting on a call from tech support for a resolution.

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Ment to say that no way the pulleys would line up. Also the crank is a 6 bolt style.

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I wonder if the problem is trying to use '64 pulleys and brackets on a '65 engine? I'm not sure but I think the '65 had a relative change to the geometry.

I think this was made obvious that your '65 Balancer didn't work with the '64 PS Pump and Alternator.

That could be what is messing you up with Vintage Air. Thier kit might work on a '64 but not on a '65 engine with '64 bracketry because the geometry of the block to heads changed?

Don't know how much you want to spend but here's an idea. Pick up this complete PS Pump Bracket set, '66 is identical to '65 and same for big Pontiac and Tempest.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/66-Pontiac-....c100005.m1851

You may also need to get a '65 pump as it was changed from '64, not sure of the differences.

You will then need the 9779020 PS Pump pulley, this was the one used in '65 for both the big Pontiac and Tempest when equipped with A/C. It will have the deep offset so that the Alt Pulley and the PS pump pulley should align.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1965-Pontia...daR9YO&vxp=mtr

You will also need the '65 2 groove Water Pump 8" dia. pulley p/n 9778808. These are fairly easy to find. Won't have the 2 different groove dias. but will align with the other pulleys properly on a '65 engine. Plenty of used ones and I believe it is also reproduced.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1966-Origin...pZemq3&vxp=mtr

I'm not sure about the '65 Alt Brackets. The '65 Alt pulley with A/C was different than '64 but I think only because it was smaller dia. I think should still align with the larger dia. '64 Alt pulley.

Then you would use the '65 2 groove Balancer that came with the 326.

With this set-up you will achieve the result of having the rearmost groove of the Balancer pulley align with both the Alt pulley and the PS pump pulley and free up the front groove of the Balancer pulley to drive the A/C compressor pulley (and also wrap the front groove of the 9778808 WP pulley).

Alternately, did you ever check with Bob Vidan to see if he has the '64 PS pump pulley with the deep offset?

I think I have this figured out, the brackets for the compressor came with two spacers, one a half inch and another just over an inch. Of course one is too short and the other too long, but I used the short spacer with a couple of washers to line up with the water pump and crankshaft outer pulleys. I will make solid spacers once I make sure the length is correct. I will get the power pump pulley with the offset to line up with the alternator pulley. So the inner pulleys would be the crankshaft, water pump, alternator and power steering. The outer pulleys would be the crankshaft, water pump and the compressor.

Anyone see a problem with this configuration?

As always I appreciate all the great help and information.

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Pics of the test fit so far.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...b7176cb8a6.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...b56889520d.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...1bc30e0543.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...7f48a46363.jpg

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While waiting for parts, I removed the fan blower motor and housing, I also had to remove the add on radio from glove box area not sure where it will go since there will be no room. The hardest part so far is replacing the ducts for the defrost. I don't know how to remove the old one piece duct without removing the gauge cluster, which in my case was needed to replace the green turn signal indicator lens and red bright headlight indicator.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...b26d9966b9.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...5ff6ed8615.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...6f7035eba0.jpg

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Hi, PM sent

A few more pics.

Defroster vents installed, passenger air floor vent and kick panel removed. Took the dash cluster out to replace the turn signal and high beam indicator lenses. Made the job of installing the defroster vents much easier.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...0591d82293.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...676f3f967f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...c708af18ef.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...fec14f64ca.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...8738e57b5e.jpg

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It looks like the belt configuration in the middle left is the way I will be going on this setup.

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Here is the rest of the listing that I forgot to include before. Note that although the 64 and 65 are similar they are not identical. As you have a mix of 64 and 65 parts be careful. If you look close at the pictures you can tell which belt runs on which pulley. As has been noted in other posts the crank and water pump are double pulleys with different diameters. Although there may be differences in backset.it is not noted in the part number information and I'm not sure of the differences. But when you are searching for double pulleys with different diameters on the same pulley you must get the proper ratio on each pulley. When the crank pulley changes diameter with two pulleys the water pump must change in the same ratio. Crank and water pump don't need to be the same diameter but the diameters must change in the same ratio. Otherwise the belts will fight each other. One belt will win and the other will squeal like a stuck hog.

Modified the kick panel, it was already in iffy shape so cutting it wasn't a concern. Installed the plate that covers the opening in the firewall. Get a friend, or in my case my wife to insert the bolts from the outside and hold the wrench to tighten the nuts on the inside.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...d353483dbe.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...a47c3f6474.jpg

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Installed the mounting brackets and heater hose connections. Need to get longer heater hose to go any further.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...caf8c6ea73.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...d5a3c000c4.jpg

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Purchased the heater hose and started routing the hoses. The round cover came with a small channel brace that goes behind the cover with a single screw. Well, in trying to use that configuration the brace fell into the rocker panel area. While trying to fish it out I found the cage nut and cage had come loose. I never did get the brace out so I will have to figure out how to fix this. Last time I had to cut open the rocker panel. If I figure out how to repair without cutting open the rocker panel then the brace my just live there. I ended up drilling 4 holes around the perimeter and attatching with sheet metal screws.

The next challenge I ran into is the plate that fits into the area the fresh air damper. Although there are several pre-drilled holes but don't seem to line up with the existing holes. I will have to remove the heater hoses and AC hoses from the unit to drill a few holes.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...4e25da4039.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...b681ac4576.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...6b8c0af93b.jpg

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I have the VA unit installed and the fresh air cover for the heater and AC hoses pass through.

It looks like I will have to drill a couple additional holes for the front bracket that holds the VA unit. It appears the screws will be into the area under the cowl panel, need to make sure these are sealed well.

Modified the controls for the actuators and they are installed in the dash cluster.

Tips: test fit all the brackets and covers to make sure the holes line up or even existing before installing. It will save time and agrivation trying to install then disassemble partially make the connection and install again. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...4453f8f820.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...02ebc10e86.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...415e9f9ce0.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...5424ba4563.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...7bc8cf790b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...a3f7d83af2.jpg

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Dash cluster installed, may have to check the lights are in the right receptacle. The VA unit is fully mounted and the heater hoses connected. Inner fender set in place with a few bolts. New power steering pump pulley installed.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...3d01e0af59.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...ddd1d44c0c.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...76c4b93e19.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...04afc0f890.jpg

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Connected the lines to the compressor and the dryer. Also added the heater control valve. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...efa7de1f39.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...1c4e26d051.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...b71cd326dd.jpg

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Finished up the AC connections, may have to shorten some of the heater hoses.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...5da71d9a97.jpg

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Installed the new plug wire brackets, need one longer plug wire. New belts installed. You can see where the windshield fluid container was mounted but the AC lines are in the way so I rerouted it to the firewall cover plate for the AC unit.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...7dbdd5c7c6.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...21b8aa4cd0.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...b65c995de0.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...51922a783f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...55e4058fb8.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...703ec58b90.jpg

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Well, minus the hood the AC installation is finished. I need to take it up to have the system charged. I have taken it for a drive a couple times to get the fluids flowing and top them off. The belt configuration using the offset power steering pump pulley seems to be working well also. Once the system is charged I am sure I will need to get a shroud and a different fan for more cooling but I will see how it goes.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...38aba3e14d.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...26422cefbb.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...3759bea776.jpg

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Couple more pictureshttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...8a1853fb37.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...42874e2e5e.jpg

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And the interior, don't mind the mess, clean up coming.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...52cbb92937.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...7fdbecf918.jpg

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Finally had the AC charged, a fellow Pontiac 65 GTO convertible owner has an AC shop and gave me a deal. $ 60 to evacuate and charge. Blows nice cold air. I still might need a shroud and a better fan but we will see once it gets into summer, which in Florida is not far away.

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This project completed, on to the next one.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...9be3820971.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...ef492b932f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...1eaf1d6266.jpg

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Took the old bomb out for a drive today, AC works great.

Drove a road that had several round abouts, handled like I expected, nice and tight.

Biggest grin on my face in a long time.

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Kudos to you and awesome work! I hope to experience a similar "grin" experience later this year with my own '64. I'm jealous right now for sure.