Replacement point sets
 

I'd like to use the stock points distributor but have concerns about replacement parts quality.

Are aftermarket points and condensor sets as dependable as the originals were???? I like points for their simplicity and ease of diagnosing, as well as the cost of 'fixing' ignition problems. You used to be able to spend less than $5 on replacing cap, rotor, points, and condensor. It was cheap enough to just 'throw parts' at the problem if you couldn't figure it out. But it was pretty easy to tell when your points, coil, or cap were bad, leaving the condensor as a maybe..

Even if it is now $15 or $20 for the set, it is still cheaper than HEI even if you know for sure where the problem is in case of a no spark issue.

After Several Failures on my 78 Trans Am HEI Ignition, I will never run HEI parts again.

The ignitions I plan to use are either basic points/condenser or a "Potted" MSD-6 Ignition Box with RPM capability and a simple magnetic trigger wheel in the distributor. I have tried to stock up on the older good Delco points and Condenser sets when I can find them.

Tom V.

Accel still makes good points

Napa still sells decent points but they have changed somethings around a bit.
Used to be their CS-89 points were fairly stiff and a substitute for the Delco 112P points.

The last sets I bought from Napa were a month and a half ago and I bought 6. They worked fine for the folks I bought them for, but I noticed they have come off the spring tension a skosh from what they used to be. They are fine for street use at least the 6 I got were and all were consistent. Very sturdy construction and screw terminals.

I'd have no reservations sending you in for a couple sets. That is at least as long as something drastic hasn't changed in the last month and a half.

As always.... look em over pretty good and you be my eyes and judge if they look of good quality to you.
If so buy em.

The standard sets are all over the map.
Get the CS-89's

The NAPA CS-89's are still high quality from what I have seen. Work fine in the few cars I have installed them in the last few years up to 5500-5700 RPM. Now that Mr. Gasket is bankrupt, and all their various components have been sold off, Holley owns Accel. Accel points were really nice and had a stiff spring, but not sure about availability now that Holley seems to own the entire ignition world. Holley owns MSD, Mallory, Accel, and Jacobs, possibly others.

Concider this with failures of electronics and the semiconductors they are made of, every 20 degree reduction of temperature they are used at will double there life !

This is why Ford put modules on the outside, not the inside of there Distributiors!

I've been using the "uni-set" points from NAPA in the points distributors we restore here for quite a few years now, zero issues with them. These are the type with the condenser attached to the points set. I recommend buying two sets, install one, set the dwell, then remove it and put it in a zip-lock bag in the glove box. Install the second set, set dwell, time the engine and you're good to go. If anything happens to the installed set, with a flat blade screwdriver and a couple of minutes you are back on the road......Cliff

Excellent suggestion and as was said, a very valuable "back-up" plan for a point ignition issue, and the point set has been proven to work before the re-install on the vehicle.

Tom V.

Thanks for all the help. Now I feel confident using the points distributor. I feel like this is both saving money and keeping things simple.

The only thing I don't like about the uni-set of points/condenser is you can't adjust them very easy with a feeler gauge. You have to eyeball them initially, then adjust the dwell. Maybe Cliff has a trick for that he can mention.

Yes, I've set up so many of them I can "smell" them and hit them right on the money!.....LOL

Seriously, with some practice you can look in there and "eye-ball" them to get you close enough so it will run fine. Soon as you fire it up adjust the dwell, set the timing and good to go. Keep in mind that dwell will change some when you hit higher rpms and take a little timing out as well. It's really not a negative at all as taking a few degrees out on top end can and often will improve ET and MPH just a tad......Cliff

Just to throw in a slightly different experience, back in the old days I ran nothing but all Accel ignition parts in all our race & street Pontiacs, and used points type dist only. Hey, the HEI wasn't even in use yet, when I started racing, in '73.

I bought the racing points, 32oz spring ???, tho I probably didn't need 'em on most of my 455's.. Only had 1 single failure. One set of the points would not fire at all. I examined them closely & could not see anything wrong with 'em. Even tried 'em in other dist. They just simply would not fire. Have no idea why.


We also had point's type dist in all the milk trucks in my dad's business. We bought NAPA parts for them. They worked just fine. But, I always carried along extra ignition parts in every truck. Had to use some of the extra parts, thru the years, in order to make it home with the truck.


Since Cliff mentioned the "uni-set" points/cond combo, I'll add this. I HATED THOSE. Every time I got another vehicle which had those, one of the first things I'd do is throw those in the trash & replace with separate points & cond. Then point's are much easier to set, by just being able to see the gap. After you set quite a few, measuring the gap, you can guess at the gap & get it close enuff to run just fine, especially on a low performance vehicle, like a milk truck engine.

I eventually figured out it was a waste of money to change the cond every time I changed points. After I quit adding a new cond each time, I never had a cond failure on anything--race or street. This may be different from others' experiences, but that's how I remember mine. I haven't bought any Accel points in a long time. So, I have no idea of their current quality. And I haven't used a points type dist since around 2003 or so, in our last sbc powered milk truck.

I've put over 300,000 miles on GTO's with nothing but original points distributors and have had zero ignition issues in the past 40+ years of operation. I tend to favor original AC Delco points, bought on line when I can find them. A set will run for 15,000 miles or more. The 106 are the standard, the 107 is the uni-set, and the 112P is the stiff spring, originally meant for the Z-28. No need to run the 112's on a stock Poncho. I've run the 106's way past the redline without ignition breakdown. Congrats on going with points....most folks these days don't understand them, and assume they are unreliable and a weak link in the ignition system. The opposite is true. I've seen many, many more failures with HEI than I ever have with points, and this is from a guy who tuned cars for a living from 1981 to present. That's a LOT of cars.

Just read ponyaker's post: I used to run into issues myself sometimes with the Uniset when the condenser would become loose where it screwed to the points assembly. For that reason, I run a separate points and condenser in all my old cars.

If the points are not pitting, no reason to replace the condenser. "New" does not mean "good". I replaced a set once, and the car ran like crap, replaced the new condenser with the old one, ran fine.

What I've always liked about points is, although they might wear, they might go out of adjustment, they might pit .... they almost, never, ever ... just plain fail and leave you stranded. And the ability of have a replacement ignition system in your glove box for $10 is pretty handy.

What makes the uni-set a good move is that you only need to mess with two screws to replace the entire set. The condenser screw can be a real PITA laying over a fender with a flash light in the middle of the night.

Points go bad more than condensers, but I have seen a handful of condensers fail over the years, so it is usually best to replace both during a "tune-up".

With that said and it was mentioned above, "new" doesn't mean better, and some of those parts that are currently available aren't that great. I don't have the part number for the NAPA uni-set available at the moment, but it is a very, very well made part, not "cheesy" like some of the ones we seen over the years. Been using them for quite a few years now and so far they haven't started supplying a low quality offshore supplement, but that is likely going to be the case at some point, pretty much like everything else associated with buying parts for this hobby........Cliff

Oh well, my experiences are somewhat opposite. In post 7, Steve mentions about fords "better idea " of installing the module outside the distributor away from heat of engine, and GM putting it inside the distributor. When I sold auto parts from 1985-1998 I have no doubt I sold way more ford modules than GM. I recognized it even back then, didn't make any sense at all. I've never had a GM module fail on me. Who knows..

Many customers back then specifically asked for their points and condensers, seperate. The reason was the uniset points did not last as long.

I don't mind GM points, being able to final adjust them with an Allen wrench. Although beware, my buddy bought a cheap set from Horeillys in 2011 for his 72 GTO. I struggled greatly with the deal. Number one, the last time I installed points, I did not have bi-focals. Number two the hex in the Borg Warner point set was NOT the same as the standard size of years by gone, I believe it was metric!!!. I pulled the distributor out of the engine, threw that point set across the street, installed a new set my buddy scrounged for, and all was well.

Crazy thing about this GTO is, it came with that special ignition setup from the factory, my buddy sent off for the PHS stuff. There is a story behind this car and my buddy. I need to tell....

I sold the called Standard Ignition mostly in those days. Many here say they were nothing special, performance wise (even their heavier duty line called Blue Streak). But many customers preferred them because of their life cycle, in normal driving.k

Well here's the deal with all that.

First, back a long time ago.... Delco any kind of points were semi adjusted to where if somebody hadn't been goofing with them already, you could pull them from the foil wrapped box and put them in a fire the car.

That's no joke. Now don't think they were all adjusted to 29 degrees of dwell on every set but they were within spec enough you could start a car and somewhat drive it if needed. I still am using these sets as I still have a fairly healthy supply still.

Didn't matter whether it was separate points n condensers or uniset. No difference.

The Uniset was never intended to be a performance oriented set of points anyway. It had a specific use, and purpose and it worked for that useage.

I hate coming behind someone who had a uniset and the guy wants the separate pieces installed back.... now you can acquire, buy, borrow, or beg the hold down bracket for the condenser that everyone pitched years back. Not too easy to find these days when you need one like right this minute.

You can set dwell on a separate set just the same and put it in glovebox as you would the uniset, no worries.

GM did have a little trouble out of the uniset for a brief period of time, but they quickly worked it out.
For their intended purpose...driving; normally, they were acceptable. Performance.... not really. But as with everything there are exceptions.

Honestly I'm surprised you can get points at all these days anymore.

Unisets are really not my bag of tea anyway. Pain in the ass to dress them even if you wanted to. Can be done, but not easily. Certainly not as easily as the conventional separate set of points.

The real deal in all this point stuff is in the varying capacities of the condensers....
Nobody even mentioned that part yet. That's where the good stuff is.

I notice that NAPA doesn't list the CS-89 as fitting a 68 GTO for some reason. While the Echlin catalog says the CS-89 fits Pontiac from the late 50's - 74.

Napa does list various Echlin points for a 68 as
standard ECH CS86,
heavy duty ECH CS786
performance ECH CS7860
"race only" ECH CS7860C

CS-89 still the preferred points for a 68 ?

Silly question ... but, did the 68's use a distributor mounted condenser or coil mounted? I see two versions, one with a longer wire and separate clip, and one that appears to have a shorter wire and an attached clip.

If my old memory serves me right mine had the condenser mounted to the breaker plate.

They work fine. As I said the CS-89 was a supposed direct replacement for D112P Delco points which were pretty stiff as they were a performance set for some pretty serious rpm.

As such no D112P sets were factory installed on Pontiacs as RPO.

They fit fine.

There was a condenser installed in distributor on all Pontiacs as standard procedure as that was needed for the points. The second condenser you spoke of mounted on the coil bracket may have been installed on all, some, or none of certain GM applications through the years and was simply a radio frequency interference capacitor. Used as a "electrical noise" filter, such as to eliminate alternator whine in the radio of some vehicles.

I'll add to that the the radio interference capacitor was connected to the coil POSITIVE, not like the capacitor(condenser) used with points, which is connected to the coil NEGATIVE. Do not connect any additional capacitor to the coil negative, it will detrimentally affect your ignition.

George

Thanks guys.

Working from memory here ... Often points don't need to be changed ..... If they are burnt they can be filed...... if they are burnt unevenly [more one side than the other] the condenser is bad .... Condensers have a finite life span, they deteriorate inside from age, even if not being used. Heavy springs are meant for and work well for Hi RPM use but the rubbing block wears more quickly resulting in more often adjustment of dwell.
Please correct me if my memory is off on ant point ...... happens lately.

Absolutely correct. I well remember that foil box. My cars always started, without fail, whenever I put a set of Delco points in it before any adjustment was made. Recently I put a set of Accel points in my car and it wouldn't start for anything. I got frustrated and pulled out a very worn set of points and installed them. Car fired right up. Told me that the problem must be in the points set. I pulled the distributor so I could get close enough to see the gap (old eyes) and I could see the enormous gap that the factory "setting" had. I had to turn that allen screw several full turns to get the gap more to where it should be.

I have been buying AC/Delco points on Amazon.com and they seem to work well.

One last trick that the old guys might remember: Need to install an emergency set of points but don't have a feeler gauge or a dwell meter handy? Install the points and fire the car up. Turn the points screw counterclockwise until the engine just starts to miss. Then turn the points screw 1/2 of a full turn clockwise, close the hood and go. The points will be within 2 degrees of 28-32. Try it the next time you install some points just for grins.
Bill

This is a GREAT thread;
it seems that often I appear to be the only one who recommends a 'plain old' factory points setup when ever people are looking for opinions - so to see so many people attesting to running them problem free, is a nice change :D

convert HEI to points.....
 

...Suntuned...Nice to see you here...Good question for you and others here...on my 64 lemans 326 which runs an HEI that Suntuned put together for me 15 yrs ago..(awesome job by the way!).....it seems about every 3-4 yrs i'll be driving..last year on highway on Cape Cod, 75 mph, and the HEI module craps its pants and leaves me by the side of the road!..My first module lasted many years, but these newer ones must all be made in CHEENA! :)..my question: If I converted back to points, would I also have to use the smaller diameter plug wires or could i just keep HEI set which almost new?...also, I took out the pink resistor wire, would i have to reinstall one or is there a way to just mount a resistor on the wire in the engine bay?....
Thanks...

Pecosbill, you are right. That little misfire deal is actually printed in the factory shop manuals.

Spark plug box top worked well too as well as the cover on a book of matches.

Smasse...
It's probably cause you let me work on it.

Nah you can get a conversion cap like what msd sells that fits points housing but has HEI terminals.

Very easy.

Sorry I didn't see last part.
You could just run a resistor like the factory did off the coil bracket,if you wanted to.

That's easy to do also.

I was going to respond to smass64, but upon re-reading his post, I am guessing I am missing something... so I won't touch it - but I will post the rest of what I intended;

This jogged my memory, and lead me back to a thread that I had a small part in from last year;
This all started because I decided to once again peruse ePay for what Delco points sets were going for - then I noticed the D106P vs D106PS, and then there were other similar numbered points (D108 iirc) that looked the same...

About that other thread - I'll quote my post:

With that as the context, I am curious why the general consensus seems to be looking for a replacement for a D106P (unvented with clip connector) vs the slightly better D106PS (vented with screw connector) Delco points.
Or
The (even) better D112P which appears to be best substituted with either a NAPA CS89 or CS7860 points set.
(The Corvette article link from my old post was removed from this quote)

Man history of those will take several pages.

Folks like to banter about on what is THE best set to get.

Answer is really dependent upon what you're actually doing with the vehicle as to what specific set you'd really be looking for.

Really comes down to the spring tension in ounces it requires to unseat or break the contacts.
Obviously high rpm such a a 427/435 hp vette will utilize the 112p's, grandmas bonnevile wagon, not those.

They been arguing over the clip set Vs screw set since the first two sets of each made it onto the highway.
I've never had an issue with either coming disconnected.

My dad has an old Delco bulletin I'll have to dig out that outlined general suggested installation guidelines for useage in vehicles while he was at Pontiac dealer back in the 60's.

They would use the large contact unventilated set for in town light to light use, they'd use the ventilated small contact set for mainly freeway use, and the performance sets were self explanatory. They were to query customer on main intended useage of the vehicle and recommend point sets from there. Within the D106 P,PS, or HP families. Like say if you were a salesman with a huge tristate territory and were on freeway 85% of the time or more, then they might use the ventilated small contact set or vice versa depending on the customers intended useage.

The 112's are good but they are really a might stiff for anything other than really getting with it in a street car.

Twin D112P sets in a epoxied up base iron housing chevy distributor in a heated 327 were good here at home for 8500 rpm with no issue. Incedentally that was same engine that used the very first Lunati .600/.600 lift solid roller cam Pappa Joe ground and gave to a good friend of my dads to try out.

Point distributors may not be as glamorous as the electronic stuff, and may in fact be antiquated tech, but they can sure be worked rather easily to have some pretty nasty fangs when needed.

I don’t know when it was written so some info may be outdated, but here is a very in depth article on NAPA point sets.

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...ts-article.pdf

That's a nice article.thanks for sharing it.

Sun Tuned, I can guess by your posts that your a very informed guy, so please understand that I appreciate your insight (if you ever found that bulletin I'd love to read it);
That article is linked in my original post that I quoted (I said I removed it);
I recieved my Firebird in 1995 after graduating from High School - so needless to say, all this technology preceeds me by several years - which is why I have to often do my own reading.

Between my '70 and the '73 that I owned for a spell, I have run points for probably 99.8% of the time I drove the two - and for the first (aprox) six years, my '70 was my main driver or only car...

:D

This might very well be my fovorite post for 2018:
I love it - too bad so few people will even humor this, let alone believe it.

also, i will be going through these looking for any such bulletin;
I accidentally bought these last Friday at the Portland swap meet - I say accidentally because they were marked as coming out friday morning at $20/ea, but apparently at the end of friday $10 was sufficient to take them all...

I think I stumbled on a great deal - from my cursory glances (after getting back to my cousin's house) it appears as though these are a special set that not many people recieved...
and here the uniqueness of the binders was all that caught my eye(!)

Great "points". I have run points triggered MSD for years (15+ years) and the points don't really wear. No current draw across them.
Toyota used points triggered CD ignition for years.
BTM, my understanding is the 'goo" Nappa points and the Accel are one and the same.
I see no reason to go to a MSD Pro billet in my car as long as I keep the RPMs under 8K. I have run my distributor on a Sum machine up to 8K with no bouncing.
And folks, if you like points get the old iron distributors while you can. They are MUCH better at holding a bushing. And oil them better too. I have yet to find one worn out and seen many aluminum ones worn out.

X2.

I run both points and HEI’s in different engines in my fleet. I like the fun of learning to keep both alive and well, and I don’t want everything to be the same.

I will continue to run both, each with their respective merits and negatives, but honestly, I’ve had more problems with the HEI units than I have with points. Like others have said, I’ve never been stranded by my points cars, but I can’t say the same for the HEI’s.

My 1971 Pontiac parts book calls for the 1966294 (DP112) points set for the 1969 HO and RA motors. I so don't buy that these motors never came with the DP112 points set from the factory. Years ago we used Sorenson "cross cut" points and they worked well.

Not sure why I said RPO earlier, gettin old and in a hurry I guess. what I meant to say was regular production standard stuff(Catalina's, bonnevilles, Grand Prix etc.)

Haven't looked at my parts manual in years. But I believe the Ram Air 4 stuff in fact used the 112's for sure. But it wasn't too many cars that used em in the Pontiac line.

Most everyone likely was trying to run Mallory 102X, anyways.

And hell they even used to put em in the box the same direction as the picture on the outside of the box to boot.

Can't find good help these days....

I went ahead and ordered a couple sets of D106PS for $8 apiece including shipping.

A couple posts I read said the condensers can go bad from age. So I assume that buying almost 50 year old NOS might not be a good idea. Any suggestions on quality condenser. I want durability and don't need anything for high rpm performance unless they would be more durable. I guess at this point, the same thing goes for distributor cap, and coil in a new thread.