Super Stock Drag Racing
 

This thread is for anything connected to Pontiac powered Super Stock drag racing.

Can be about current or past drivers, builders, cars, or parts.

Can also include info about non-Pontiac cars/parts that could be used on a Pontiac--but not the engine itself. This is for Pontiac power only !

Questions, info, & pics, concerning Pontiac powered Super Stock cars, parts, & drivers are welcome in this thread.

I'm interested in what makes the SS Pontiacs tick. :)

Jack Mullins
 

I suppose my first Pontiac Super Stock hero was Jack Mullins. He rose to fame racing a big 389 4-speed wagon. He won national events, including the 1975 US Nationals.

We saw him race the wagon in Jackson Miss. I'd never heard a Pontiac engine wind that high, nor seen anybody shift a 4-speed any quicker.

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0212hpp-pontiac-history/

Always fond of the SS cars. I run Nostalgia Super Stock and allot of the guys in my class are also legal for SS. Only problem I see is #3&4 on your other thread. No one wants to give out info on these builds.
Hopefully I am wrong and a few will chime in.

Yeah, I can understand why some would not give out certain details. But, especially for some of the GT classes, there are mild combos that will run just under the index. That's quick enuff to win any race, unless you have a same class heads-up run.

I've noticed that Lindy Lindholm has started running his 2nd gen Stocker in GT Super Stock. It runs barely under the index. Would be interesting to know what engine changes he made, if any. Although some porting, roller cams, alum intakes, and wide tires are legal, don't know what changes he made.

At the recent Vegas race, he only ran an 11.28. But that was good enuff, for non heads-up runs. Larry Maxwell also ran an 11.28, with his 350 powered '68 Bird.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2018#indextop

Hey, there are a LOT of street cars here, running quicker than those guys. So, you wouldn't have to know any real deep SS secrets to build a GT Super Stock car that will runs it's index. And, if you don't have a lot of exotic parts in your engine, you can run some of the big bucks bracket races with the same car. There are quite a few Stock racers who run both, with the same car.

Just checked the indexes for Stock, SS, & GT classes. The SS/GT indexes are almost exactly 1 sec quicker than the Stock indexes for the same lbs/hp classes.

For example: The E/SA class is 10lb/hp & the index is 11.70. In reg SS, the 10lb/hp index is 10.70--one sec quicker. In GT, the index is 10.65.

Several of the Pontiac Stockers can run more than a sec under their Stock index. So, those cars could run under their SS index, without changing a thing.

And, since SS & GT cars are allowed some porting, roller cams, light pistons, alum intakes, tranny brakes, & big tires, running a sec under their Stock index should be easily possible. At least that's how it appears to me.

I'd like to hear what others think. Aprox how much improvement in ET would all those changes make, to a car that will run just under it's Stock index ? :confused:

For example:

(1) How much can be gained by the tranny brake & big enuff tires to hook it up ?

(2) Assuming a tranny brake/big tires, how much can be gained by just switching from a Stocker cam, to the correct solid roller ?

(3) How much ET is a Victor intake worth, on such an engine ?

(4) What about the lighter pistons & legal porting ?

Here's another question.

If you choose a '68 428 engine for GT, which is quite popular, the Edelbrock 60587 alum heads are legal. Anybody know aprox how much ET they are worth, over SS legal iron D-port heads ?

http://www.edelbrock.com/media/news/.../070908-2.html

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-60587

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...9&MAKE=Pontiac

Thanks for starting these two threads. Really love watching both classes and all the hard work that goes into these cars. Probably 80% of the work that goes out of the shop I frequent is NHRA Stock and Super Stock. Several are Pontiacs. If I have credible information about a specific topic, I will be happy to chime in.

"...If I have credible information about a specific topic, I will be happy to chime in..."


Please do !

Thanks !

On a legal 400CID 69 GTO SS car I helped a guy with years back, we tried 3 intakes in 1 day. Factory 69 Q-Jet Intake, Performer RPM and a Victor, all used the same 800CFM Q-jet.
Looking back at an old log book of his runs
Factory Iron Intake- [email protected]
Performer [email protected]
[email protected]

No tuning, spacers etc between swaps.
I believe he eventually cut the divider in the RPM and picked up a bunch.

ON the 60587 heads are the only legal in GT classes?

"...ON the 60587 heads are the only legal in GT classes?"


Legal in all SS classes. But, the reason nobody runs 'em on a 428, in a reg SS car, is that the '68 428 came only in the big cars--no A or F bodies.

They are also legal on '69-'70 RAIV SS engines. But the lowest hp rating is 350. So, with it's lower hp factor, the 428 is a more competitive engine. IMO Just makes sense to me that the 428 with the same heads, has the power advantage.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...7&MAKE=Pontiac

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...2&MAKE=Pontiac

"...On a legal 400CID 69 GTO SS car I helped a guy with years back, we...used the same 800CFM Q-jet."


I just noticed this. An 800cfm Q-jet is not legal on a '69 GTO. All came with a 750. So, only 750 Q-jets are legal. Can't make the throats any bigger. Can use any GM 750, or an Edelbrock 1901. Mods are limited.

The primary Venturi in the E-1901 is listed as being slightly larger than the GM 750's. Don't know if that is enuff to help or not. Apparently not, since most of the Stock/SS Pontiacs I've seen are running Pontiac Q-jets. I assume that if there was a measurable performance advantage, most would run the 1901.

I also just noticed that the hp factor for the '69 350hp GTO, in SS, is only 306. That might make a '69 350hp GTO a decent choice for SS. The factor is 310 for GT. Don't know why the difference.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...4&MAKE=Pontiac

This brings up a question. How much can be gained by using an 800 Q-jet over a 750 Q-jet, on the same Stock/SS engine ? If the gain is enuff, that might give a '75-up Pontiac combo a slight advantage, since they all had 800's. Maybe Cliff can help out with this question. I think I've read that he's built some Q-jets for some Pure Stock cars, and maybe some Stockers too. He has probably done some dyno work & strip testing, comparing his 750's against his 800's.

I'd sure like to see Scott Burton get his 3rd gen firebird SS'er going better. Both he and his son have driven it. His son is a kick ass driver!!!

He will. But hey, at the last race it ran a 9.81, which was 3/4 of a sec under his index. So he qualified in the top half of the field.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...UMMIT#indextop

And, at the Vegas national event, he got RU to a great SS racer, when he just barely tripped the red light, with a -.002.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...er=30#indextop

The car was a legal car in early 90's and had sat for a few years, not sure what carb was run at the time it was campaigned in NHRA SS. The guy I was helping bought the car turn key from a guy in the North East with hopes and dreams of running NHRA Divisional events but health issues never let him. I have tried to locate the car several times to buy it but have had no luck. His name was Marvin Burke and he died a few years after that. He lived near Clemson SC.
The point was we used the same carb on 3 intakes to keep it a fair comparison. The carb was a Q-jet built by my father and loaned to him for intake test. I was trying to show the intake differences..

I will see John Angeles on the 28th.He has run the 428 E head combo in his 69 in GT I think.Will see what he will give up.Tom

Yeah, I think his '69 RAIV Bird was the 1st Pontiac powered SS car to make a 9 sec run, with Keri driving. At least that's what is posted on Bruce Fulpers site. I'm sure John knows a few Pontiac speed secrets.

http://www.pontiacpower.com/performance.htm

Yakr,
I got a challenge for you...
Find some pictures of Truman Fields 72 GTO....there's one in the 70-72 GTO section here, in action, posted by threefidee. see if you can find any more :)
My buddy owned that car from 1980 to 2012. It is now owned by Mark Weymouth, being restored to it's day 2 version as a SS car, that Truman raced it as....

There are a few at this link.

http://ftp.myclassicgarage.com/socia...-Ram-Air/37906

Here's it is on the GTO forum.

http://www.gtoforum.com/642010-post3.html

Here's one off my laptop.

'72 GTO
 

That reminded me of the only '72 GTO Super Stocker we ever saw. It was at the '78 Cajun Nats. It was a National record holder, owned by Sonny Ray . TJ got a good close up pic of car & driver. I assume it was a 455HO car.

Sonny's future son-in-law, David Rampy, won his 1st National Event, in that car, at the Cajun Nats, in '83. Rampy has had a very successful racing career.

https://www.motorsport.com/nhra/news...2-david-rampy/

I think I see an H-O Racing Specialties decal on the front fender, in the 3rd pic below, which reminds me that I still have a few left, if anybody wants some. If interested Email me at [email protected], for order info.

"...Find some pictures of Truman Fields 72 GTO..."

Can ya stand some more ?

The 2nd pic shows the old 5-amber tree we use to have. Anybody know when most big tracks switched over to the 3-amber tree ? :confused:

John Angeles's old RAIV motor had a single pattern cam when we talked at Donut Derilics with you Tom. We exchanged RAIV ideas then.

Johnny dunken 73/74 NHRA record holder car
 

Anybody have any information or old pictures of Johnny Duncan 73/74 ihra world record holder car
Bill fodder also raced this car.

How about this ?

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...postcount=1979

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...9&postcount=25

I think the record holder was actually Bill Foder. ?

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...17&postcount=1

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...47&postcount=9

This thread is great along with the stocker thread. I always was a fan of stock, super stock and the old modified production classes. When GT came about it refreshed my interest and seems a suitable replacement ( almost ) for M/P.

Found out (last month at Huntsville) Don Kennedy has moved to TN (Whitehouse area) not too far from me so maybe I'll be able to catch him locally and maybe learn something. (He was selling race car insurance and didn't have his car at Huntsville.)

Thanks for the info from Bill fodder..and pontyakr looking forward to getting more

"...Don Kennedy has moved to TN (Whitehouse area) not too far from me so maybe I'll be able to catch him locally and maybe learn something..."


Hey, that's great. He should be a storehouse of knowledge. Maybe we can learn more about the alum head 428 combo that several guys are running.

One thing I've noticed is the dist stickin out the front of the engine. Will somebody who knows please explain in detail exactly how these things work, all parts needed to rig 'em up, and all the advantages they provide, including any power gains, and where to buy. Post links if possible.

Clegg's are probably running theirs this weekend in Baytown. Cool crisp air today maybe some good times possible.

JB is running the '74 SD455 T/A.

And, although John has run several quick Pontiac powered cars, I assume that he is not running a Pontiac engine in his 3rd gen Bird. Anybody know for sure ? :confused:

http://missiongarage.com/photos.htm

GM corporate BBC style but not the normal BBC heads/block. He has a new boosted one he debuted in LA recently not sure what class it runs.. They have been freshening his 73 Firebird SS car but not sure if it is ready for this race or not.

"...They have been freshening his 73 Firebird SS car but not sure if it is ready for this race or not..."


It's not on the SS Q-1 list. Wonder who the driver would be, if all 3 cars run the same race.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...er=30#indextop

It's John's.

Glenn leased the 74 back then from them and it had a ladder bar/floater rear end setup. Now has the SD and a 4 link.

JB running 9.6s in an old iron headed car with factory front suspension!

JB just lost in round one, at the SpringNationals. :(

It's tuff to win with a stick nowadays. Back in the old days, there were lots of stick Pontiacs winning. My first 2 Pontiac heroes ran a stick--Truman Fields & Jack Mullins.

I know John Clegg ran one, at least some of the time. This might be a good time for you guys to name all the past Pontiac SS stick winners you can.

I'll start with the 1st one I was aware of--Jack Mullins won the '75 SportsNationals & the US Nats.

I know that many of the 60's Pontiac drag cars ran a stick--some of 'em a 3-speed stick. Modern auto trans/converter technology was not available back then. Don't know that I've read of a single 421SD car or any '64-'66 GTO racing an auto. I assume that the TH400 began to change all that.

Top pontiac ss eng combos
 

68 428 390hp rated 330 with alum heads 73 400 200hp rated 275 hp 4x heads 77 350 rated at 250hp

In the 60's clutched hydramatics and clutchflites we're the hot setup before the lencos came along. The B+M hydro put B+M in the performance transmission spotlight.
More common in the gassers and altereds.

Yeah, I remember a Modified Anglia, named "Odd Job", that ran at local tracks back in the '60's. It had a "B&M Hydro". At the time, I had no idea what that was. :o

My 59 block had an aluminum flywheel (Harvey)and aftermarket clutch under a hydramatic bell. The car had a hydraulic setup vs it's stock arrangement but there was no transmission anywhere..... Car was parked @1962 .
I drove a friend's max wedge Dodge with a clutchflite. Pretty neat push button shift...on street riding clutch on shift point helped absorb harshness. Launch just rev where you want and sidestep the pedal. Cool stuff.

Record Holders
 

For this & the Stock Elim thread, I'd like to come up with a list of every Pontiac powered car/driver that set a nat record.

I know of a few. But, I suppose you'd need access to the old NHRA National Dragster newspapers to come up with all, or at least most of the record holders. At least I think I remember that the records were posted occasionally in ND.

So, do any of you guys have, or know who has lots of the old ND newspapers ?

Any & all Pontiac record holder info would be welcomed & appreciated in this thread !

I'll start it of with the H-O Racing Specialties SS/KA SD455 '74 T/A. It set a nat record of 11.31, back in Mar of '77. But I know there were lots of Pontiac SS record holders before 1977.

JB Clegg's SD car is still a stick.

Yeah, I've read that JB's car is the original H-O car, but has obviously gone thru quite a few changes.

For those interested, there are some rebuild pics, from back in 2009, when it was updated. They're under the title "JB's Race Car Rebuild", about 80% of the way to the bottom of the page, at this link.

http://missiongarage.com/photos.htm

In looking for some old Pontiac SS records, I ran across this, which shows a '61 Pontiac, with a 363hp Trophy 425-A engine, which set the S/S record @ 14.04. The article has other Pontiac drag info, from the early '60's.

https://books.google.com/books?id=RY...20cars&f=false

Haven't thought about these threads much in a while. But, since very little, or maybe none of the info has changed, I'll add some now, and try to add more as I come across it.

Just learned that Don Kennedy wrote the original GT rules, for Super Stock, back in the early '80's. Then NHRA made a few minor changes to what he'd wrote, and began allowing GT cars to run with the regular SS cars.

This rule allows the use of older engines in later model bodies. Also, any GM engine can be run in any GM body. This allows the use of the older high performance engines, without having to buy a super rare, high dollar body. Reduced the cost of a build, by many thousands.

One of the best examples is the use of the 428 in any year A or F-body, as well as many other Pontiac & other GM bodies. I know the alum head version of the 428 has been run in 3rd & 4th gen Birds, Sunfires, and Chevy Cobalts. Not sure of any others.

There are also some 3rd gen Birds & at least one '74 GTO, running '74 model 400 engine specs.

Question: Does anybody here know the EXACT year the GT rules went into effect ? :confused:

Does anybody here know how to find class elimination results for races BEFORE 1998 ? The reason I use that year is because, at this time, the records from 1998 to present, are available on the Drag Race Central site.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/Seri...es=NHRA-SUMMIT

Most drag racers know that it's a big deal to win your class at the US Nats. As I was lookin thru the Indy SS class winners, on the Drag Race Central site, I noticed that there are a few Pontiacs that have won class and/or RU, several times.

One of these cars is the Phil Monteith 4th gen Bird, which has an alum head 428 engine. It has been driven mostly by Peter Biondo. He has won some NHRA championships with it.

Don Kennedy won his GT/EA class, with a 9.177, in his 428 Sunfire.

Todd Frantz won his GT/FA class, with a 9.188, in his 428 powered Cobalt.

Robert Cruzen got at least 2 GT/AA class wins in a row, in his 428 powered Cobalt. He turned an 8.900 for one of those wins !

Ken Shawver won his class 4 years in a row, from 2003 thru 2006, in his '78 400 powered T/A.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2003#indextop

In '07, Monte Howard took over the driving duties, doing quite well, winning the Indy Fall Classic that year.

http://www.nhradiv3.com/apcm/APCMvie...4918&print=yes

He won the SS/KA class at Indy, in 2010.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2010#indextop

Bill Rink won his class several times, with his '74 GTO. In both '18 & '19, Mike Morgan was RU to Bill, makin it an all Pontiac 350 class final !

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2018#indextop

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2019#indextop

Mike had won his SS/MA class in '16. That's the same year Robert Cruzen turned the 8.900, in GT/AA.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2016#indextop

Another SS class winner was Carroll Warling, in his record holding '74 GA.

As mentioned, the posted DRC records only go back to 1998. So, I don't know know how to locate any older class winner records.

Well, in the last few weeks, I've been doing a LOT of research about Pontiac powered Stock & SS racing, thru the years.

One thing I learned about the early '60's cars is that I thought the cars which ran classes like, S/S, S/SA, OS/S, & even the very early FX classes were all run in Super Stock.

Not so. Back then, A/S & A/SA were the lowest classes in what was called "Top Stock". B/S & below was called "Junior Stock".

Best I can tell, the Super Stock class was not run, officially, in NHRA, 'til either the '66 or '67 seasons. After that, all Stockers ran together, & all Super Stockers ran together.

Don't know who was running SS, with a Pontiac, in the late '60's. I do know that Mopar was dominating the class. The 1st Pontiac powered SS car I knew anything about, which I've already mentioned in this thread, was the Jack Mullins 389 4-speed wagon, with which he won the Sportsnationals & the US Nats, in '75.

There was also another big wagon that was a nat record holder for a lot of years. Don't know who the owner was, or anything else about the car. Just going by the pics, it must have done a lot of racing. This is the earliest Pontiac powered SS record holder I know of.

I assume that, in the late '60's, lots of Pontiac dealerships were running Pontiacs, in SS. Gay Pontiac had a '67 Bird.

As a wagon racer myself, I love this car! (needs Cragar SS's though)

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...8&d=1580303943

We've already mentioned that Truman Fields ran a '72 GTO in SS. I think it was a factory sponsored deal.

Gary Moore also ran SS in '72, with a '72 Formy. He set the speed record, at Amarillo, in '72.

Don Breen was running a '71 Formy in SS. He was mentioned as winning a SS race, in a Lunati ad.

Also have a pic of another '72 SS Formy, with Burnett Pontiac on the side. You can tell this was back before the big tire SS cars. I think the tire rule was that you could run the biggest tire that would fit in the stock wheel well.

Assuming all these cars were running the 455HO engine.

As mentioned, there were quite a few Pontiac dealerships sponsoring drag cars.

Stan Long Pontiac & Gratiot Auto Supply sponsored a '67 SS Bird, that was driven by Tony Knieper. The car set a SS/FA record. Tony & a younger brother were killed in a towing accident, on the way to a div points race.

Not sure how many Pontiac dealers sponsored SS cars. But there were probably quite a few independent racers running SS Pontiacs. Have a pic of one named Yellow Bird. Gary Moore must have got a little help from a Pontiac dealer, on his '68 Acre Maker II Bird, since there is the name of a Pontiac dealer over the rear tire. All these 1st gen Birds were the early, small tire version.

Just as there were lots of 455HO cars run in Stock & SS, their were quite a few '73 SD455 cars run in Stock & SS.

John Clegg bought one new, and won his Stock class at Indy with it, that same year. He later switched it over to SS. They have restored & updated it, and J.B. ran well into the 9 sec zone, with it.

Bob Michael ran one. Don Kennedy later bought & raced it. A few other names associated with one of these are, Phil Szupka, Bill Foder, Hershlow & Morlock, Glen Tinsley, & Russ Abrams.

How about Russ Abrams? This car used to come to Milan in the 80’s running mid 10’s

Also some SD455 '74 Birds run in SS.

I suppose the most famous, and the 1st one I ever knew of, was the nat record holder raced by H-O Racing Specialties. We saw it at the '78 Cajun Nats. John Clegg bought it. Glen Tinsley drove it some. Then J.B. Clegg drove it for several years. They eventually put a 4-speed in it, & J.B. ran it well into the 9's.

It has already been mentioned that Johnny Duncan ran one.

Another guy associated with one was Tony Reiter.

Yeah, I mentioned his name, but could only post 5 pics with that post.

Thanks for posting the pics !

The only pic I have of the car Phil Szupka raced is very small. I'll go ahead & post it. Maybe I can get TJ to see if she can make it a little bigger, without makin it too blurred.

If some of you guys have a good way to make a larger, good quality pic of it, please do so.

I think Phil was RU at the US Nats, one year.