Car feels slow Why ??
 

Ok I can’t fiquire this car out my car is making 12 # of boost and timing is locked at 21 degrees on a motor that makes 550hp NA so with these boost #,s it does not feel that fast . What could be happing ? Any chance the timing is not correct ? Like maybe the balancer is not marked right or something ?

You should be more around 27 degrees total (with 15 psi of boost). Lazy is due to low compression ratios (for the boost and fuel used) or lack of timing.

Luhn Performance made 863 hp with a basic 462 engine (2 bolt main) at 13.5 psi of boost and a 300 cfm head. So what do you think you are making for HP?

Tom V.

Well it made 550 on motor so with 12 # of boost I would think 750 ish HP Any way to tell if the timing is what the balancer is saying ? I am running e85 and it running on the rich side..

Have you run it at a track?

What balancer do you have on the engine?

Tom V.

I'm running 22deg of timing on my 462 with Iron heads. It might be faster than you think. When I first put the turbo on my car I didn't think it was that fast until I got into a few races with it and I was beating about anything I raced at the local hangout.:) The only way to know for sure is to try it out!

To verify your balancer (without tearing the engine apart)have a buddy turn the crank with a rachet to 0 timing mark. remove #1 plug and insert a small pick on top of the piston. slowly turn the engine and see if the pick moves up or down. Not very accurate but it would indicate if the balancer is way-off.

Professional products just the basic one around 100.00 ... will check the top of piston when at zero Tomorrow ...

No track times yet still working out bugs just my butt dyno thinking about a dyno session but I have to find a shop that can tune this fitech system ...

Whats the entire combo?
Engine, trans, rear gear, weight or car, turbo I assume?
Fuel injected or carb?
Any data logs?

I have helped several people who had that Chinese Balancer and they all were not indexed correctly for the timing.

If you use a piston stop on the #1 cylinder and lightly turn the engine over in a counter clockwise direction, touch the stop, make a mark on the balancer (tape a piece of paper on the balancer), then rotate the engine clockwise until you are touching the piston stop again, make a mark, 1/2 way between the two marks should be true Top Dead Center for your engine. Then you can determine your timing if you have a normal pontiac timing cover.

Tom V.

468 SDperformance max ported 6x-4 heads ,old faithful Hyd roller cam, fitech fuel injection , e-85 , turbo 400, 9.5 3400 stall convertor , 3.08 rear gear with 28” tire , single turbo s475 , car weight is 3550 car is making 12# of boost and timing is locked out at 21 degrees no data logs

OK so the timing light says 21 degrees vs the damper mark but if you don't know that the TDC mark is truly at TDC (vs the piston positionvs on the damper mark) it could be for sure off on actual timing, even with a locked timing value.

Tom V.

Correct Tom I ordered a new balancer from Bullet and start there ...

Some of the basic Pioneer Pontiac Balancers have pretty high quality control.

I will not recommend the Chinese Balancer to anyone at this time.
I spoke with the Sales Guy for the company and it was all about quality this, quality that, etc.

I think they did a better job with the Tomahawk intakes that were sold in Cali, years ago, but even the Hurricane stuff (Made by the same people) does not match the old Tomahawk type quality. Think the guy selling the Tomahawks was inspecting all of his intakes before selling them (for quality control) and sending back the ones that did not pass.

Tom V.

Low compression engines tend to like quite a bit of ignition timing advance at low rpm, especially before any boost comes in. Your best bet, IMO, is to fit a boost timing retard box like the MSD Boost Timing Master or the MSD 6530, this way you can run a lot more initial timing to give you vastly improved throttle response and quicker boost rise time, and then use the timing box to pull timing down to a safe level as the boost rises. I ended up at 42* locked initial timing with my low compression combo, pulled down to 27* at 18 psi boost. Yours may like 32-36 initial, pulled back to 21* at full boost. Increase timing in SMALL 2* steps. If you use the MSD BTM it can only pull a maximum of 15*, so a base timing of 36* can be pulled back to 21* at full boost. However, you can play with the settings to start pulling timing at differing amounts of boost, and the amount of timing pulled can be in 1-3* steps . Start safe, pull 3* per pound of boost starting at 1 psi boost, then try 2* per pound of boost starting at 1psi etc. You'll probably end up starting to pull timing at 5psi of boost for best throttle response and boost rise time, so with your target 12psi of boost that leaves 7 psi of boost to pull all your timing out to 21* . You will now need to pull a minimum of 2* per pound of boost from 5psi to get 14* out. Hope this makes sense!

First thing I would do is run a log with the FiTech and make sure it's fueling properly. That's going to be valuable tuning information.

If you aren't already I'd also set it up for timing control. For the build you've got I'm assuming you have a 1200PA on there. Setup the timing control with that so you can run good timing out of boost and set it to pull timing as boost rises.

I think most everyone is probably on the right track that your timing numbers probably aren't where you think they are.

How did you setup your base calibration in the FiTech for e85? Did you increase your engine displacement by 20-30% or are you commanding 20-30% richer mixture?

Jason I did add 30 percent to my cubic inch and I set my a/ f targets for E85 ... I do have a wide band gauge that I watch also , and it’s doing a good job keeping the a/f mixtures close but it does favor the rich side which is a good thing for safety while tuning . Just ordered a new harmonic balance and will check to see if maybe the timing marks are off ... thanks

THANKS BUD
It does .... I at one time was pulling timing from the MSD 6 Plus box with a Hobbs switch hooked to the nitrous retard that the msd box has But the Hobbs switch I have is for 3 # and I was pulling 9 degrees all at once down low and it did not like that so I disconnect that for now ... plus I was scared that if for so reason that switch failed and it did not pull timing I could blow it up ...

That may be part of the issue there. If you added 30% to your displacement, and added 30% to your commanded mixture you're overfueling by a good amount. The FiTech uses lambda = 1 for it's fueling calculations, so you only do one or the other.

The system assumes you are running gasoline, so what you're effectively doing is fooling the ECU based off the wideband o2's lambda reading. If you add 30% to your displacement, the system adjusts the VE tables upward accordingly and you still then target stoich as 14.7 as read by the display. That's an interpretation for your eyes, the ECU sees lambda where 1 = stoich.

I don't run e85, but most of the people doing it with the FiTech are having the best results by adding displacement to the base calibration, especially for people that are getting e85 from the pump and live in areas where it may fluctuate with the seasons. Commanding richer mixtures based on true engine displacement works a bit better if you are using a premium racing e85 that you know is always 85% ethanol.

So, once you've added size to your base map, dial in the afr targets based on what you'd want to see from them if you were using gasoline instead.

Yea that what’s I am doing just added 30% to cubic inch and I am using my wideband on a gas scale the engine does not know what fuel I am using , it’s just measuring a/f ratio right ?

OKay, I took your original post about using mixture for e85 as to mean you had also commanded a richer mixture on top of your additional displacement. Yes you want to view your afr's as though you were using gasoline.

Specifically with the e85 deal, you need to be in a habit of running datalogs, specifically to view the fuel trims. 30% increase in displacement is a very rough number and may end up being wildly inaccurate depending on your specific combination. You stated it's running a bit on the rich side, so it's possible you may actually need to decrease the additional cubic inches you gave the system a little bit. Ideally you want to get your learn values and trims as close to zero as possible, so there's some trial and error here.

Others may differ, but here's what I would do.

1. Sort out your timing situation and very 100% that the timing you are seeing through the light is accurate and if not, correct that
2. Once you've verified your timing is accurate, warm the car up and go do a full load pull from as low of an rpm to your max rpm and datalog it.

What I would be interested in with that datalog is what your indicated AFR is vs your commanded afr as well as your fuel learn and fuel trim.

The factory settings for learn max out at -35 and +50. The learn is the over-time modification to the VE table and the trim is the further change on top of that modified value. If you are seeing learn values near, or at maximum (in either direction), you need to modify the VE table by either correcting it manually in the ProCal software, or reducing (or increasing) the basic engine setup map. The closer you get the learn and trim values to 0, the more room the ecu will have to make adjustments based on different driving conditions and fuel qualities

Thanks Jason I see you are familiar with the fitech and E85 that’s cool . I need to get a data log and would like to send it to you to look over for sure .

I can certainly look over it, but I am no guru. I would strongly suggest posting it also to the FiTech Owners Group on Facebook. There are several experts in speed density and alpha-n tuning strategies present there that can provide probably greater insight.

Ok cool

I'm running a 8-71 blower and I was going to use my multi-step to
pull timing at 4500 rpm probly 8* do you think that is wise.
I know it's a lot at once but that all I got right now for timing control?
Thanks for any info. I've learned a lot just reading thru here.
It seamed when I ask a question I got a snotty response from some.
So I've been setting back and reading others questions. Very informative.

Thanks GT.

Look at it this way:
Naturally aspirated the pressure going into the engine is 14.7 (sea level conditions for this example) psi.
The Pontiac distributor has a vacuum can that adds say 10-12 degrees of additional timing under light load/cruising conditions. So if you have 32 degrees of Initial and Centrifugal timing under a light load cruise condition you could have 40 or 42 degrees of timing in the engine.
(THIS IS JUST AN EXAMPLE OF HOW IGNITION TIMING WORKS)

So you add more load to the engine quickly and two things happen. 1) the load on the engine is higher so the vacuum in the intake manifold drops (dropping the vacuum in the "timing advance vacuum can" on the distributor) and the 42 degrees of total timing goes very quickly back to 32 degrees of timing.
You did not hurt the engine by doing this. It happens thousands of times in a month of driving on the street with a Pontiac stock ignition system.

So now you want to remove 8 degrees of timing at 4500 rpm. 8 degrees of timing removed would make your engine less fuel efficient but happier under the higher load condition with less timing.

Unless you are cruising at 4500 rpm on the highway, not likely, you are in an acceleration mode (higher load) so the reduced timing function is a normal situation under higher engine loads.

The question is "When does it seem the "happiest" under that condition".
8 degrees removed, 4 degrees removed, 10 degrees removed? That takes some tuning time to find out as each engine is different.

Read the plugs, play with the timing, and find out what your engine is happy with for the fuel you are using vs the way the engine is built.

JMT (Just my Thoughts on the subject)

Tom V.

er455, have you checked backpressure yet? I'm not sure what that cam has for overlap, but if you have a decent amount you'll need a really good flowing exhaust. I just put my full exhaust back on and lost 2psi. It's 5" to the transmission and 4" out the back with a Dynamax Ultra Flow 4" muffler. I put the boost back into it but the 5" open pipe definitely makes more power. If you have a lot of overlap, a smallish exhaust wheel, tons of exhaust from the E85, and a restrictive exhaust I can see where you'd have some problems. My $.02.

Funny you say that , I just had a new custom 3” stainless exhaust ran out the back from my old 2.5 pipes system with a transverse muffler and after that is when it felt a tad slower ... but I should have helped the back pressure by going to bigger pipe and a 3.5 “ downpipe ....I have a new harmonic balancer coming and I hope that the timing marks are not accurate with my old professional products one . Thanks , will let u know what I find out with the balancer .. do you think 2-4 degrees off of timing can wake up a turbo motor ??

Timing will make a huge difference, yes. In my opinion your downpipe is way small. I would go to atleast a 4", 5" if you have the room, and put something like a Loud valve cut out off the downpipe. That way you can keep your exhaust. The 3.5" downpipe doesn't have much more area than one of your 3" pipes. Here's a little chart showing area of pipes.

Pic #1, post #28, WHY DO YOU HAVE THAT MERGE PIPE INSTALLED IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION FROM WHAT IT WAS DESIGNED TO BE RUN AT. You come off of the single pipe, REDUCE the area of the pipe, then split the pipe into two pipes and expect that to flow some exhaust? IMO The actual flow area at that point looks like it is less than ONE of the dual pipes area farther down stream.

Tom V.

Wow did not think the 3.5 “ was that restrictive , I might be able to fit a 4” have to do some test fitting when I take my down pipe off next time .... what size were you able to fit ? We have the same car basically.

How else can you run dual exhaust without splitting it somewhere ? This is the exact setup all the Buick grand nationals run well into the 9,s I am going from 3.5 “ merge pipe to dual 3” pipes , I would like to have a 4” downpipe but not sure I can fit it ..

Tom's right, that merge piece is absolutely killing any flow that you had. You need a larger downpipe, a merge something like the one in the picture or a custom one, and probably an electric cut out or a Loud Valve on the downpipe.
You asked about my exhaust. I have a 5" downpipe that runs from the turbo down to about the rear of the transmission where I smoothly transitioned down to 4". It stays 4" back to the bumper where my 4" muffler is. The muffler is a Dynamax Ultra Flow. It's straight through and pretty much just changes the sound a little. I'm either gonna put a 4" Loud Valve dump on the downpipe up front or run a second 4" pipe from the 5" to 4" transition.

Ok maybe my pics are not showing what I have the merge pipe looks like the one you posted here is a pic of what’s on my car ...

I say BS to your last post and the pic you show. The picture that you posted is a GENERIC PICTURE from their website of a MERGE COLLECTOR and does not represent the actual piece that you showed in your other pics.
Obvious that the pipe bends are not even close to being the same. Post a pic or YOUR PIECE tonight tonight with a tape measure next to the merge piece. Then we can compare the transitions and bends..

The piece you posted resembles the design of the your picture.

Tom V.

Here is the best pic I can get without jacking the car up ... the merge pipe is 3.5” with a v band clamp going into 2 - 3” pipes exactly like I posted it’s made by vibrant ...

Those pics are better. It doesn't look as bad, but it really looks like this thing is first necking down to a 3" diameter before splitting into two. So instead of going from an area of 9 sq" into a theoretical area of 18 sp", you actually neck down first to a 3" pipe at around 7 sq" of volume, before the transition to 2 pipes.

It's something to take a look at for sure. It's connected with a v band to your down-pipe. Try disconnecting the back of the exhaust and take the car out to see how it feels. If it wakes up, you know you've found at least part of your issue.

Tom maybe your not seeing the pic clearly or the angles I took might look diferent but I know what’s on my car ... why would I BS ??

Your transition on the left (where it necks down)
needs to be a bunch longer and larger.

The merge works ok if the flow is in the other direction because of the cylunder firings. Think Tri-Y headers. You have constant flow from the Turbo trying to squeeze thru that necked down merge before it goes to the two pipes.

As was posted better to have done a longer/ larger single pipe and have the much more gradual merge to two mufflers happen farther toward the rear axle. The BS is the way the parts were installed, not you personally.

Tom V.

Ok yea I am going to try to squeeze a bigger 4” section on my downpipe like u mention before .. thanks

Good idea , I get the new balancer Tommorow and I am hoping that’s the old has slipped or was built with the timing marks off , I have read that the older professional products balancer had these issues Thanks

That merge sure looks like its choking the hell out of it. I also used the flowmaster scavenger series 4" to dual 3". Also used a flowmaster merge from dual 2.5 to 3.5 into my turbo. Theyre nice pieces

Thanks for the explanation makes a little more sense hearing it rather than
thinking it, If that makes any sense LOL Thanks Again.

GT.

GT
24 initial no advance till 4000 36 degrees total by 4500 rpm, Boost retard 9 degrees by 2 psi.

Basically this is the timing Chevy used on turbo'd corvair. Basically 27 total boosted with initial dropping to 15 at 2 psi and staying there till 4000 before advancing to 27 by 4500.

Update
 

Ok so I replaced the old Professional Products balancer which had 3/8 “ of play on the outer ring back and forth so it has slipped , I put the new balancer on and checked the timing it’s now reading 19 degrees , so I changed the timing to 24 degrees and left the boost at 12 # car feels better . Next is to get the Fitech tuned better. Thanks guys ....

Like I posted earlier the PP stuff can be real POS parts at times.
You are lucky the outer ring did not come completely off and the crank was then damaged.

Let us know how the other part works out for you.

Tom V.

Your right Tom, lesson learned .

Sounds like were both learning. I love this sight.

GT.

I just wasn't sure how it would do with making that much timing diff all at once.
I'll try it and let you all how it works. We were sopposed to do a little
street racing tonight but the damb rain won't give us a break.

GT.

Start with less and work your way up . Keep in mind that unboosted your running a low compression motor on premium fuel! !!

Deb's 406 originally had 6x-8 heads. Ran fine even on 85 octane from the reservation pump. On 93 premium it notably felt slower. On 93 advancing to 20 initial brought response back but still required limiting total to@35 or you would risk light high rpm ping on a hot day-hot water temp as it approached 5000 rpm. That's a whole different curve than if setup for 87 or less.
20 initial allowed hot starts without kickback or to slow cranking. 22 was ok when motor was below warmup.
I put timing back to a "normal" 12 initial 36 total in by 2500 and convinced Deb her motor could run the cheap gas with no issue.

So...start with finding your motors "happy" initial advance for hot(heat soaked) starts. Keep your unboosted advance total "normal" . Pull timing as motor gets into boost. You'll probably need no more than 24-27 degrees final timing boosted at peak rpm.