Electric supercharger...?
 

Looking at a bunch of videos on YouTube thought it was interesting.


GTO George

Sounds like a plausible option for a variable boost supercharger- good for on the fly flex fuel optimization.

Would like very much to see more info on doing that.

Energy can be neither created nor destroyed, only changed in form.

No way a standard battery and alternator could power such a device for very long, not at any substantial power level at least. It would be more efficient to have the motor of the device attached at the output of the transmission, directly adding power, bypassing the losses it would have through the compressor and the engine.

I have heard that yes, the electrical power amount would be too high.

Somehow driving it off the transmission would be challenging. Would that ultimately be much more efficient than simply off a drive belt, as already seen with the Procharger I-1?

I am talking drag racing. Some systems charge the battery off the alternator.
Basically they are turbos that are fab up with an electric (24 volts or more) electric motor.

GTO George

We tested a bunch of the "Big Dogs" Electric Superchargers about the 2014 time frame.
They worked very well on 42 volt charging systems. Not so well on 12 volt systems.
My company was pushing, when I was there, for a upgrade to 48 volt systems across the board on the vehicles.

https://jalopnik.com/everything-you-...olt-1790364465

https://www.consumerreports.org/auto...lt-technology/


Why 48-Volt?

Most cars today contain the typical 12-volt electrical system that relies on an alternator to convert the engine’s power into electrical current. That current charges the vehicle’s starter battery and runs all the vehicle’s electrical components, including lighting, infotainment, and safety systems.

But 12-volt systems are becoming inadequate for modern vehicles, says Sam Abuelsamid, a senior analyst at Navigant.

“We’ve got so many things in the vehicle today that are demanding electrical power,” he says, from advanced safety technology to convenience features.

That’s why automakers including Fiat Chrysler Automobiles (FCA), Mercedes-Benz, and Volkswagen have started designing vehicles using 48-volt systems, which CR calls mild hybrids. The technical changes are relatively minor. Cars get an electric generator instead of an alternator, and a larger battery and regenerative brakes.

Why are they making the change? Because a 48-volt system can save fuel, reduce emissions, and increase power, which helps automakers meet stricter worldwide fuel economy and emissions standards without sacrificing performance. Beyond the power boost and fuel savings, 48-volt systems don’t add as much up-front cost as true hybrids, such as the Toyota Camry Hybrid.

"The addition of 48-volt batteries can be good value for consumers because they support the latest tech features and boost fuel efficiency at a reasonable price point,” said Shannon Baker-Branstetter, senior policy counsel for energy and environment at Consumers Union, the advocacy division of Consumer Reports.

For example, a 48-volt system comes standard on the 2019 Ram 1500 outfitted with the smaller 3.6-liter engine. It adds only $800 to a Ram equipped with the larger 5.7-liter V8 engine, and it can boost fuel economy up to 10 percent, FCA says. It also adds up to 130 lb.-ft. of torque, which translates into better initial acceleration and more power for hauling and towing.



The 48-volt battery system allows the 2019 Audi A6 to shut off its engine while coasting to save fuel. The setup also makes the car’s auto stop/start function—which shuts off the engine when the car is stopped—much less intrusive. The engine restarts faster and the air conditioning stays on while the engine is off, which addresses a common consumer complaint.

“Ultimately, the biggest change in performance I think the U.S. consumer is going to appreciate is the feel of the engine start-stop performance,” says Brian McKay, director of powertrain technology and innovation for Continental North America, which supplies Audi with its 48-volt system. According to McKay, Continental’s system adds only about 33 pounds to the weight of the vehicle.

Consumers will also see a vehicle’s electric-powered convenience features perform better, McKay says, with the vehicle “being able to warm up your seats faster, defrost your windshield faster.” A 48-volt system will also provide enough amperage to run power tools, which is a feature McKay expects to see used on pickup trucks. Already, FCA says the Ram 1500 can provide up to 400 watts of power.

A 48-Volt Future

Drivers should expect even more 48-volt advances soon. “Once you have a 48-volt infrastructure available in your car, you can start doing some interesting things with it,” McKay says.

Audi already uses the 48-volt system in its A8 sedan to power small electric motors in its adaptive suspension. In Europe, the 48-volt 2018 Audi SQ7 TDI uses an electric compressor to help its twin turbochargers work faster and better, improving acceleration.

A 12-volt electrical system just wouldn’t have enough juice to power these systems, Abuelsamid says. That’s also the case with the energy-hungry sensors and computers necessary for the next generation of autonomous vehicle technology.

In the near future, he expects more belt-driven engine components—like water pumps and radiators—to get electrified as 48-volt systems become more commonplace.

“They should also be more reliable in the long term, because they’re not dependent on that belt,” he says. Because electrical systems often have fewer moving parts than traditional approaches, they have been found to be more reliable over time.

According to McKay, the 48-volt system itself shouldn’t cause any maintenance headaches. The whole system, including the battery, “will last the lifetime of the vehicle,” he says.

We are eager to put those claims to the test when we purchase a Ram 1500. As for reliability, we will see what CR members say in future surveys."

With a 48 Volt system, you would have instant response on the Turbo Compressor.
With that much INSTANT MASS FLOW thru the engine the engine would feel like a Big shot of NOS but you would never fill the bottle.

Been there, done that technology. Tested 4 different systems: Two 12 volt systems and Two 48 volt systems.
No comparison between the two. 48 Volt kicks butt.

Tom Vaught

24 volt superchargers where putting out 5-7 lbs of boost of course it was a small engine (4 cylinder) but they also didn't require any power off the engine to run! More volts.....more boost!
The NEW lithium batteries make it possible.

GTO George

Today's 12 volt superchargers will make that boost number easily on the basic 4 cylinder vehicle's modern charging system. It takes POWER to spin a compressor wheel or rotor, be it belt driven, electric driven, or exhaust driven.

A very basic calculation which I can post up if anyone is interested. The same basic calculation could be used to determine the hp George is consuming with his Roots supercharger.

Tom V.

Not driving it OFF the transmission!

Having add power to the driveline AT the transmission.

Say the electric motor can make X amount of horsepower. If it is turning a compressor, then the friction and pumping losses are eating SOME of that power. the compressed air is going to increase frictional losses in the motor. By the time the energy has made it to the output of the tranny, you will have some value that is less than X.

If the motor is put at the output shaft to begin with, then it is providing the full Xhp.

George, I understand, and it would less-impractical on a pure drag car. But to make serious power I believe it would take some serious batteries, and a BIG recharging system to recover the power between runs. And I still believe that the car would be faster with having the electric motors add power directly to the driveline, instead of powering compressors that feed into a combustion engine.

...finished a 2-Stage electric on-demand boots that takes 28 Volts and <80 amps total, and whole deal weighs < 10 Lbs.

Well of course some foolings around has prompted a rebuild of both staged to gain clearance while running.

1st I have a GOOD idea what it takes to make my 1,400 HP with only 11 lbs of boost from my BDS stage 3 blower.
2nd it really doesn't matter......it is what it is! LOL!

Todays 12 volt superchargers..........thats FUNNY! LOL!

GTO George

Good for your George.

As I posted at least two boost companies have been working with Electrical people to design a electric supercharger that would improve the low end response of the Turbocharger system by adding electric boost BEFORE the exhaust driven supercharger comes on line. (Has enough exhaust volume to make the boost/power the customer wants.) This is OEM though not a Drag Racing thought.

And the suppliers just want to sell their product.

Tom V.

That old news! LOL!


GTO George

Could care less about you watching videos on YouTube.

How does that fit into the Boost Section?
Except that you posted that you watched some videos.

Post up some TECHNICAL Info on what the videos said, George.

Thanks

Tom V.

Supercharging is all about boost....Hence the boost section! You don’t run the boost section or for that matters any section.....I’ll post what I want or unless you want to pm a bunch of members.....just saying!


GTO George

Electric superchargers are interesting......5-10 lbs of boost can make TONS of torque and HP. It’s just an alternative to turbo charging and a pro charger type supercharger. With the newer lithium batteries it could be interesting and YES they do work!


GTO George

What do any of these electric superchargers cost?

I would be particularly interested in one to provide additional boost on demand as part of an on the fly optimizable flex fuel system, aka it increases the boost when using fuels with greater octane, such as that with greater percentages of alcohol

Are there any specific such videos, say on you tube regarding any of this?

1. ARC Superchargers
2. TorqAmp
Just to name a couple real quick.


GTO George

DIY.
12 V too low got to go with >\= 28V. Worth carrying a pair of Lipos or 1additional lipo with you auto lead-acid.

Anyway, my goal was 6 psi with suitable flow. sure i got 3.3 psi at flow for 28 V @ 70 Amps (self-imposed current limit) but have to redo some things to get back on the evals.

and sure i can move the 70 Amps to 140 Amps ( have 300 Amp controllers) but that is not the point. Point is to do this efficiently at 70-80 Amps THEN raise the allowable current(power).

The torqamp supercharger will make about 230 hp.

A standard belt driven vortech supercharger will make 650 hp.

Question is how much do they want for their electric supercharger.

Tom V.

How did you come up with the TorqAmp making 230 hp? LOL!
Electric Supercargers are simple to instal....very little plumbing involved and no load on crankshaft. Just s couple of lightweight lithium batteries.


GTO George

Simple George. I watched the Video from TorqAmp.
Right on the video the number on the screen showed that the unit at full capacity moved 23 pounds of air mass.

1 pound of air mass with make 10 horsepower. 10 times 23 = 230 Hp, George.

You know how to drive George, but when the info is right in front of you one the screen, it doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to figure out the HP Number.

You just need to know something about Boost vs just reading a gage on a Drag Car that says 12 psi on it.

Tom Vaught Boost Engineer for 39 years is how I knew the number.

I knew the numbers I just didn’t think you would take time from PMing PY members to look at a you tube video........silly boy! :)
There’s a reason I get all my hp in bracket form out of only 11 lbs of boost! LOL!

GTO George

This part is the truth. The rest is BS as usual.

You would not have asked where the number came from if you really knew anything about Boost, except for watching Videos.

I have had a 100 vendors with "a concept for a boosting device" come to talk to me and the other Boost Guys in my group.

You are a genius George on boosting, vs the Boss who wanted to use the Fan Motor in the heater hardware to BOOST the engine.

Tom V.

......and you are like the guy who wanted to but never could! :)


GTO George

......and you are like the guy who wanted to but never could! :)
How are the cheap seats?

GTO George

Screwed up and could not do the post properly the first time, huh George.
No need for Cheap Seats, George, I can AFFORD to sit in ANY seat I chose.

I could afford to have Bickle build me any car I want TOMORROW, or any engine I want from Brad Anderson. I personally do not like Drag Racing. Bonneville is more for my taste. 440 mph runs on the salt for several miles tell me a lot more about an engine and the people that put it together vs a 1/4 mile pass from a vehicle/engine like yours.

So if you call people that like that type of racing being in the Cheap Seats, so be it.
Merry Christmas George.

Tom Vaught

ps You need any help figuring out where a horsepower number comes from, just post up, and I will explain it to you.

.......and if you need any help building a boosted drag race car give me a call, on second thought DON'T I have better things to do! LMAO!



GTO George

You won't be receiving any calls because:
1) I don't have your number, LOL.
2) I could care less about Bracket Racing.
3) You would have no experience with the Aftermarket Parts I would want to use
and you would not use those parts in a 8 second Bracket Race application,
which you seem to have 8-10 years experience in and no desire to go faster with your limited racing funds.
Lil Jack and the ECM Guys have offered help for years.

Tom V.

ECM are great guys maybe they would help you! LOL!
I hear they do charity cases! After all you’ve done so well building that car on your own.

GTO George

They might like making a trip to Wendover, Ut and see some High MPH.
There are always racers there who can use a helping hand. No BS, No
Cry Baby excuses for not going fast.

I will have to ask them, Thanks George.

Tom V.

I have to do Big People's stuff now so I can't play with you anymore today.
You don't qualify mentally or physically

Any Time old man!

You don't mean BIG stuff you mean OLD stuff........like sitting in a recliner and watching other racers race on TV. LOL!


GTO George

OK let’s get back on topic!




GTO George

Doing some research and came to the conclusion that one supercharger will probably not push enough air for a 500 inch engine......but maybe two would work.


GTO George

Really, Think someone told you that earlier.

Say your 520+ engine makes 700 hp with its compression ratio and methanol fuel naturally aspirated. You say you are making about 1200 hp with the two methanol dominators, and your roots blower. Fuel is passing thru the supercharger cooling everything.

I assume that you know you can't run fuel thru a Centrifugal Supercharger compressor housing without a carbon face seal on the compressor shaft. Maybe you don't.

So also assuming that the Two Electric Superchargers (making 230 hp each) or 460 extra hp vs the HP you are making now, 700 hp plus 460 hp = 1160 hp you are making 40 hp more vs your roots deal. With your 1200 assumed HP number the roots blower is using 100 hp to compress the air to 12 psi and move it thru the engine. 1100 hp driving the converter.

Like I said, simple math. But

You would now have to figure out how to cool the electric superchargers because you can't run fuel thru them easily. When they compress air they make a lot of heat.
Turbos have a oil system to remove that heat from the bearings inside them.
Procharger superchargers have a oil system inside of them. Vortech Superchargers use engine oil to cool them. So how are you going to cool the compressor housing and the bearings.

Maybe you could cool the compressor cover and the air with a special compressor cover.
Using A/C fluid or Water. Like this one https://patents.justia.com/patent/6779515

Then you could ask the guy who came up with the patent how to make it work.
The guys who own the patent are Inventors: A. Thomas Vaught (Harper Woods, MI), Steve John OHara (Zionsville, IN).

I will not expect a check from you George because you would never send me any money.

Plus you would have to have a very special machine shop create the two cooled covers for the Electric Superchargers. You could make one copy of the cover but not two covers.
Against the law to do that. But that will never happen.

So you know something about running methanol fuel thru a roots supercharger, stick with that or put one of the toy electric superchargers on your wife's vehicle. Electric Superchargers for the most part are for part throttle acceleration improvements.
Once the Electric Supercharger boys have your money, you are on your own.

Tom V.

@ Tom, hey the Heater box is a great place to hide, install the (my) electric boost.

Tom,
1. I NEVER said anywhere in this thread I wanted to use them.
2. I’m certainly making more HP then 1,200, do the math engineer boy! LOL!
3 I think that someone with smaller cubed Engines wanting to run in the 11-9 secound area could give it some thought.....WAY easier then a normal turbo with their nightmare of pipes an turbo lag!!
4. I just thought the electric supercharger would be a nice topic in the Boost section!
5. The think some people are waiting for your reply in the race section!! LMAO!


GTO George

The most simple way I can explain this to you George is:

If a Pontiac Guy wants to make horsepower and does not want to go thru the aggrivation of the Turbo plumbing, just TALK TO LUHN PERFORMANCE AND HAVE THEM BUILD YOU A 750 HP VORTECH OR ATI PROCHARGER SUPERCHARGER SYSTEM.

They have done lots of bracket designs on both set-ups.
Basically a bolt on deal.

So forget the electric supercharger BS that gives you 230 hp from the supercharger and get a supercharger that gives you a 750 hp Pontiac engine.

Tom V.

Yes I an a RETIRED Engineer, George, with 39 years of boost experience.
And this is the Boost Forum. Not the Drag Race Forum.
You know a bunch about one vehicle, one engine, and one supercharger.

And the RACE Boys are waiting for DragNcar to reply, not me. They don't like my posts or pms.

1. I've had a few RACE vehicle, engines and 4 different supercharger....5 counting the procharger I had but never installed.
2. Theres nothing wrong with talking about a electric supercharger in the Boost section, lots of people probably didn't know that they were out there and capable of decent HP!
3.Nope there are more then one person needs your comments in the race section or are you to busy Pming member with NON-truths again.....just saying! Check post #41 SWweetheart and there are others, you can't hide in the Boost section forever.


GTO George

I have nothing to answer for in the Race Section.
I sent a PM to a member. PM = Private Message George, for the slow learners like you).
PRIVATE MESSAGE, PRIVATE MESSAGE, PRIVATE MESSAGE.

Now, this individual decided to run his mouth and post about a rumor I had heard.
Basically, like I said, Pavlof's Bitch barking when my "Bell" was read in the PM apparently.

So if you call it hiding in the boost section instead of posting up again in the race section on B-chit topics, you are a bigger fool than I thought you were. Thinking I would have to justify who and what I send, by PM, to another PY member. You really are a child at times George. Not a lick of Common Sense. Why would I want to throw gas on a fire that a CV-what race guy intentionally started to stir the chit? You really do not have a clue.

Tom V.

You are just Butt Hurt when your "knowledge" of Electric Superchargers "tanked" in the forum.

TANKED.....are you serious, you turn everything into a contest! LOL!
Yea like I said........HIDING! :)


GTO George!

Dam* I get tired of reading your same old BS post after post after post.

I actually thought you were improving and were posting up Boost info vs starting a urination contest with me over and over and over.

POST UP SOME BOOST INFORMATION GEORGE.
WHEN YOU POST UP SOME BOOST INFO, BE WILLING TO HEAR OTHERS INPUT INTO THE SAME SUBJECT .
GET OFF OF THE CONSTANT PERSONAL ATTACKS IN A FORUM THAT WANTS BOOST INFORMATION.

YOU WERE DOING GOOD THEN YOU DECIDED TO ATTACK ME ON A BS THREAD IN THE RACE SECTION.

Figure it out George. You really are not stupid.

Tom V.

Tom,
You would make a great politician, always twisting the facts.......I sure wouldn’t vote for you! LOL!

Back to topic! :)


GTO George

LOL!!!!

Always a day late and a dollar short, aren't you cdrookie.

We are back on topic based on Post #43. Try to keep up as best as you can.

Tom V.

Not really Vaught. I try to stay out of anything you post since it's just you stroking your immense ego. When I saw you replied to a post George made I had to read. What George posted was hilarious. I don't always agree with him, but he's someone with race section credential, and boost section credential, so I respect him and would take his advise graciously. You on the other hand are a childish egomaniac who tries to be a player in a game you can't compete in.

You are too low on the Totem Pole for any long post.

George has agreed to staying focused on Boost topics, why don't you try to do the same!

Tom V.

Tom,
You are posting more untruths.....I have never agreed anything with you. I’ll post where and when I want......I race with a boosted car you do the math, shouldn’t be that hard.:)


GTO George

We never agreed on anything because I would have to look down on you vs looking you in the eyes. LOL! You have spoken so many untruths about Marty, Me, and others that I stopped counting a long time ago.

I will let the Boost Forum people decide what posts they want to read for boost info.

Tom V.

Name one.....never have! Unlike YOU I don’t spread rumors or tell lies or go behind everyone’s back and pm others to talk sh_t about someone or something. Your just not a very nice person!

GTO George