Having work done locally vs. long distance
 

Since the long and winding thread on the failed engine has been resolved, how many on here are leery about sending a big job like that across country? I'll admit I've sent a set of heads to Dave Bisshop in Canada, but I've never had engine machine work done somewhere I can't visit in person and the situation that arose in that thread just reaffirms that.

In most parts of the country just spending time at local events and getting some input from people there can usually yield several very good machine shops in the immediate vicinity. If for some reason an issue arises, as they can and often do, it can be taken care of in person.

I'm curious as to how other feel about this, agree/disagree?

I would prefer to work locally where possible, if nothing else for the convenience. I agree that typically there's a pool of talent around many localities that makes all but the very high end build or parts acquisitions very doable. Often at a lower price as well.

I'm certainly not afraid to work long distances where it's needed however.

That thread is a shining example of why I did not let Paul build my engine as was planned. My builder was only an hour away an when he needed parts it was cheaper for me to mail them to him than the gas to deliver them. I got to actually be there the day it was cranked. You don’t get that in a cross country build.

I too would keep it local and I believe I mentioned that in my first comment in that thread. OP had plenty of local Pontiac talent within a days drive from VA. Paul did stand behind his work thanks to the PY forum and I would have no problem recommending him to someone in AZ. Mistakes happen and he made it right. But yeah keep it local.

So..... A "local" guy can't make a mistake, screw things up or get defective parts? Don't kid yourself, go where you know they know what they are doing and have a good track record. Even the pros can have a F-up. Just watch any major NHRA event. And those guys are unequivocally the best of the best.

Couple conditions when it comes to this, one, when you talk to people about a 'good' machine shop, you need to make sure they're knowledgeable, in machine work, and assembly. Otherwise, even a marginal build will be the best build experience they've ever had. One of the biggest issue I see in general is cam selection. How heads are prepared is another.

Second, it's a lot different having machine work done and then you personally do the assembly. Doing so, you need to have the appropriate tools, and CHECK EVERYTHING with scrutiny, during assembly. If there's an issue, you take it back to be corrected before you move on with the assembly.

Around me, there's literally no one left for Pontiacs, they either don't have the appropriate equipment (torque plates, etc), or insist on doing the assembly. And I've tried them all pretty much, gave up. And the ones that can are usually very expensive, or have a backlog of years.

Machine shops, with proper equipment and skilled staff, that are specifically knowledgeable in Pontiacs, are a dying breed.

'Builders' are generally focused on one or two particular brands, and rarely are with BOP brands. The machining process is basically the same, but the assembly is more specific.

The objective I would say is to eliminate as much risk as possible with the initial selection of a builder and/or a machine shop, but even the specific ones can make mistakes.

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This is the "street" forum, not the "race" forum, and my answer more or less reflect that.

Two "race" engines, one machine work done locally, the other sent to a shop in North Carolina. Both ended up being used primarily on the street. One Pontiac, one non-Pontiac.

Several "street" engines, ALL machine work done locally, excepting one set of heads sent to St. Louis. Three Pontiac, the others non-Pontiac.

As to assembly, a couple of the street engines assembled by others (package deal); all others, including the two race engines assembled by me.

So far, no failures.

Jon.

Body or restoration work, always do that locally. You need to pop in every couple of weeks to check progress.

I’d be comfortable buying an engine from afar, though.

There are good guys or shops out there everywhere. My previous shortblock was built at one of the chains of machine shops/part suppliers up here. I didn't know much about the shop..when I bought the engine from the fellow who had it built ..was just happy to have a rebuilt 455 shortblock. Nothing special..just TRW pistons stock rods new rod bolts..only paid $1800 CDN for it. This engine last for years eventually into the 10's..had no issues other than a little blowby at higher rpms. During that time ran into a few people that knew of this machine shop at this "store". Seems like the 2 main guys there enjoyed the BOP engines the most and had quite the reputation for quality work. I ran into an Oldsmobile guy a few years back that relayed the same info..and was 10 years plus on his bracket engine built by the same guys.

I have had two engines built across country.The one where the builder had his own machine shop went well.The other who sent his machine work out not so much.Im pretty much now only using shops that do their own machine work and the build.The V engine is my first with this shop so will see how it goes.Tom

If I learned one lesson from racing it was ... don't get involved in high performance engines unless you are personally, very familiar with the entire process from parts selection (or fabrication) to the final assembly.

ANY engine of ANY kind that is making 30% more than it left the factory making requires extensive experience and knowledge to build a good performing reliable final product. Knowledge of that particular brand/model engine, not a general knowledge.

Hate to say it, but if you know very little about performance engines, and you plunk down your cash, you are probably swimming in water that is too deep. Very much like going to a high stakes poker table when you don't know what you are doing. The odds are someone is going to take your money and you are not going to be happy.

This applies double and triple to vintage iron. You want a fast car but don't know how to make a car go fast? In the long run you are way better off going out and dropping $40K on some late model factory muscle.

If you don't know much about high hp engines .... keep it simple, keep it almost stock, keep it local. You'll probably be driving much sooner, much happier.

Distance doesn't bother me. People come from long distances to have me restore their classic cars and put trust in me. I do the same when I need something and know I'll get an excellent final product.

Technically, I prefer to use Paul in Tuscon for my engine work, which is a 6 hour round trip for me. I drive right past about 30 other machine shops in Phoenix on the way through LOL. Not that big of a deal. I consider that local, but to many here if it isn't in their back yard it's too far.

Now if I had not met Paul and become friends, I doubt I would use any other shop local to me. I wouldn't hesitate for a second to send my engines out to Tony Bischoff 2,000 miles away who built an engine for my father. Tony builds engines for people all over the country and abroad with a proven winning track record. Top notch and stands behind his work.

I really just don't trust too many shops to do the kind of work that I'm looking for. So I'm willing to travel to find it.

Hell an hour is just a stone throw, and won't even get you to the next town where I live LOL

And you not letting Paul build your engine isn't exactly how that went. Just sayin ;)

Exactly!! Local doesn't mean much, finding someone that does the job right is more important. If it's 30 minutes from the house, then that's great, but that is definitely not a decision maker for me. I'm not afraid to drive somewhere.

I gotta guy..... :rolleyes: LOL

Recipe for disaster the minute you hear that. Do your homework.

What would be nice, is if there was a public list around here that could be curated by people that have actually patronized the business. Business name, location, contact information etc.

I'll take a good recommendation from somebody with a good poncho between the rails over a google or yelp review any day of the week.

There are reputable shops around most areas. It helps tremendously to get out to car events, cruises, and hang around like minded people. The dragstrip is the best place, and just see who is using who.

That's how I found Paul. A forum member reached out to me, we talked, met in person, and discussed why Paul was better. When you live in the 3rd or 4th largest city in the nation with nearly 5 million people, in a classic car rich state and machine shops at every turn, and yet drive to another town for machine work, it says something. After I had tried a couple of shops in Phoenix, I went to Paul and never looked back. I could go on and on about why and what etc...

It's not that hard to look up accomplishments as well. Engine Master Challenge usually has the same big players at the top. Shops like BES, or Jon Kaase. Paul has been in that event as well. Other fields of accomplishments that says a lot about shops too if one cares to look.

Unfortunately that doesn't always work for everyone. While Colorado certainly isn't devoid of Pontiac enthusiasts, or car culture in general, I've sadly not had the same experience here.

I can pick almost any car show or event in the northern Colorado region and there's a high likelihood I'll be the soul Pontiac in the bunch.

The Pontiac guys I have met are great, but we just don't really have the options, torqhead being chief among those gents.

The machine shop that I'm about 80% certain built my shortblock doesn't have a reputation for quality, or being any more than a chevy circle track outfit. That said, my engine has been dead reliable, even after I've had my grubby hands in it.

The shop I'm using now did all of Joe Sherman's work and helped him with his Engine Masters winning build.Tom

Don't necessarily have to find a Pontiac specific shop, and your engine is an example of that. Even though done at a place with a chevy circle track reputation, it's been a great engine for you as you said.
I'm not familiar with the Colorado scene but I know what you mean about Pontiacs. That's pretty much the scenario anywhere you go. Pontiacs are sort of the low man on the totem pole. Even in our car rich state where there are literally thousands of classics on any given weekend doing an event somewhere, Pontiacs are still a minority. Chevy, Ford and Chrysler are the big players.
That doesn't mean however we still can't find a good machine shop. Pontiacs aren't that different from any other build and respond to power upgrades in a similar way. I didn't go to Paul because he just happens to be a Pontiac nut. Actually the first engine he did for me was a BBC. And his partner Jeff I believe is more of a Ford guy. But the 2 of them together build HP with anything they touch. Actually they do a bunch of the Nascar SW Tour series engines out here, making screaming power with high strung small block chevys, and Jeff was building carbs for the Nascar cup guys up until they went fuel injection. Yeah, all the millions Nascar has, with all their engineers, and they turned to Jeff all the way out here in Arizona for carbs. They also tinker in NHRA stock eliminator builds for a few guys with various brand engines. Paul just happens to love Pontiacs as most of us do here. But he builds all engines and gives each one the same treatment.
Dad went to Tony Bischoff for his last Pontiac build. Tony isn't a Pontiac guy per say, but he has done a lot of work behind the scenes for guys like McCarty developing RAV heads, and has won the engine master challenge 5-6-7-8 times or what ever the number is, and has done that with various types of engines. So he builds power with anything. Dad couldn't be happier with the outcome of his engine and it has done more than he expected.

Speaking of Colorado, the fellow I'm building this Firebird for, used to race dirt modifieds, (I may not have the class name right) and he was from that area at one time I believe and raced all over Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona etc...
He had mentioned to me in the past he used to have an outfit in Colorado do his engine work, albeit SBC stuff of course for that type of racing, but he mentioned how good the work was and the excellent power those engines made. I don't remember the name but I could ask John the name of the shop if interested.

Exactly. I’m wasn’t saying take it to Joe Blows’ shop because it’s 10 minutes away. If you hang around the right places it’s not hard to find the right people. They can also steer you clear of places to avoid. The internet is ok for gathering info, but I know of a well known internet “guru” that payed hush money to keep shoddy work quiet.

I guess I’m lucky that there are at least 6 shops within 3 hours of here that are more than capable of machining,building,dyno testing a very stout street/strip Pontiac and most of them don’t have websites or post on forums. We’re much more fortunate than the Buick/Olds group, those guys are out there too but not in the same numbers.

The thing is they are mostly older guys and a lot of them won’t be around in 10 years. That’s probably true of most shops today.

GAM (Greeley Automotive Machine) at least at one time was big into circle track stuff. Bruce Yackey is the owner and is in the Colorado Motorsports Hall of Fame.

Possible it was him.

They don't have the greatest reputation, but I do know a couple people that have had engines built by them and none went kaboom or anything like that.

My engine is a bit of a mystery as it was built several months prior to my purchase of the car. The short block is the same, but I removed the heads and cam (#62's with a 280H) in favor of something that would live on pump gas.

The last time I spoke with GAM inquiring about pricing to have the short block rebuilt with forged rods and crank, the guy I talked to spent more time just telling me I should get rid of the 3.73's and go to a 3.08. There's reasons I want/need to get rid of the factory rods and crank, but this guy didn't really seem to care. I'm sure he was just trying to "save me some money." but it soured me on them for sure.

I totally agree. I don't feel the internet is the best place. Lots of key board hero's. I've always felt in person, around the right people in the right places is best. It's why I like the dragstrip so much. No key board hero's there. It's where you put your money where your mouth is. If you spend enough time there, you figure out the regulars, who runs what, and which cars run hard on a regular basis.

There is something to be said for walking into a place and looking at the shop set-up and speaking to somebody in person. Standing in their shop you can see what engines they are lined up to do, the age/quality of the machines, whether everything is clean, etc. A long distance reputation is great - and I've made some distance purchases from brand specialists (Buick stuff - you guys think Pontiac performance is tough to find) - but I really like shaking hands with person taking my money and getting a sense of them and their business.

And lets not forget about the shops who post on forums that have shill posters playing up what great work they do. I know one builder in particular that me and 2 other guys caught and called out on another forum. May even be the same guy you are referring to.

I asked John, Robby McCabe was his engine guy out of Colorado Springs. Builds a lot of asphalt late model engines and stuff for the Denver track racers in late model and super stock, also built a lot of GM stuff for the Pikes Peak racers. John likes him and never had an issue with their engines. John got out of racing a few years back but believes the name of the shop was McCabe Motorsports.

No way would I ever go with a long distance build...ever. The builder might be great but it's expensive to send parts etc. If something goes wrong when you get the motor, the distance is a deal breaker. Though Paul came to Virginia to address the problem, it took almost two years to make that happen. I would get some work done a few hours away from the house but I will never do this again. If Paul was closer to me, I would consider it.

Bruce Yackey is still around CNS and is fast. He’s always been fast. I think his kid is running fast too. Bruce ran second to Jerry Robertson’s kid (Darren I think is his name). I didn’t know he was a motor builder. He builds fast cars. That’s a pretty strong late model division. Robby McCabe built a lot of motors up, that way and a lot of the old USLMA touring division motors. Mostly SB Chevy stuff....pretty serious motors. Never saw anything he did except for those types of motors. We never had a problem power wise or with dependability. The dirt late model motors we built in Albuquerque. So back to the thread, we used kind of a remote builder (6 hours or so) on purpose to get a guy we liked to work with with a good reputation.

That’s why I don’t pay a lot of mind to forum, Facebook, Yelp, etc. reviews. If a guy/girl in a basement in Russia can hack your bank account how hard is it to falsely build, or ruin, a reputation on line?

When I mentioned local, I followed it up within a "days drive" which to me is anywhere from 8 to 15 hours of driving to a reputable shop/builder. Never said local guys can't screw things up, you did. It's easier to work with someone you can meet up with face to face than someone on the other side of the country which has been stated already.

It was a general statement. Don't take it personal unless you're guilty of something. Like I said, even the pros have hiccups. The difference is that you can deal with a guy 1000 miles away that knows his s hit when it comes to building engines, especially Pontiacs, or you can deal with a guy 10 miles away that works on dirt cars and says, "I always wanted to build one of those Pontiacs". The difference is that you will have a better chance at a fail with the guy 10 miles away.

Sorry, it looked like it was directed at me since it was right after mine. I usually agree with you as I do with you on this topic.

Here are 2 cases of mine.

I am fortunate to have had 2 NHRA/IHRA pros not far from me. Contrary to what most might think, just because they are famous does not make their prices out of touch for the common man. So, one of my engines was done by one of them.

When it came to the transmission I spent about a year researching and found no one locally (or within 200 miles) that I felt had the knowledge to build what I required or that I could trust. So, I was going to deal with a shop that was about 450 miles away until I talked with another well known shop that was about 2000 miles away. I went with the shop that was about 2000 miles away.

So, I found 1 shop within 25 miles of me in one case and another about 2000 miles away in the other all based on doing my homework regardless of location. The end result is that that drivetrain has been going strong, problem free and running high 10's, low 11's since 2010.

That is an important point. I always figured Tony Bischoff would be fairly expensive considering all his success and popularity. But when dad went over there with his build and they priced things out, he found that Tony really wasn't any more expensive on machine work and labor than other shops we've used in the past. Based on what we knew of a few other shops around the area it made the decision pretty easy.

What all this comes down to is your confidence that luck will be on your side when you install the engine and fire it up. If all goes well, the builder 2000 miles away was a good choice. If it all goes badly, it was a bad choice. All you have is the reputation of the builder to base your decision on.

All things considered equal, it will always be easier and cheaper to find a remedy to a problem with a nearby builder. I say all things considered equal because either one can tell you to go pound sand when an issue arises. The local builder will be more responsive to a remedy because he relies on his reputation with the local automotive community as his main source of income. The potential for loss of reputation with his bread and butter and the ease with which local small claims court can be utilized for a judgement weigh on a local shop's willingness to remedy a problem.

For me, I had no problem taking my engine to Paul Carter. His reputation is still excellent in my opinion. I understand that mistakes cost money and time and that's unfortunate. We all mistakes....we just expect no mistakes be made on our stuff.

When a mistake can potentially cost thousands of dollars, it is incumbant upon the buyer to select a qualified shop and obtain a written guarantee of remedy. There is a big difference between the guy down the street telling you to "bring it back and I'll make it right" vs the guy 2,000 miles away telling you the same. This doesn't make one builder better than the other, it just gives one builder the advantage of proximity should an issue develop.

Amen! Everyone makes mistakes accept for most the folks on the Internet....they are all perfect.

Man-o-man, I'm glad none of those goobers post here!! :pound:

So the the fact that after I worked up 2-3 different estimates and you kept changing the way you wanted it done and would ask for another estimate, then me telling you to find someone else to do your engine had nothing to do with it?

Sorry, the forum had nothing to do with it. We stand behind our work if we make a mistake.

Ummm GTOFREEK you spec’d and ordered the cam for it and prepared my oil pump. I had every intention of sending it out there and I have the private messages to back it up. You never discharged me as a customer.

Also I’ve talked to 68vagoat several times on the phone and been forwarded some of the text messages. If it wasn’t for it being known what happened on this forum then I sincerely doubt you would have flown to VA to tear the engine down! Just my honest opinion

You gonna start that up after it’s merciful death by moderator?

I hinted at this 64speed in post 13. I don't like to do this to someone on a public forum but since you're going to be the way you're being, I'll lay it out.

Paul did the cam for you....yes, but your budget constraints sending payments of $5 to $10 a week for a camshaft is just not the way most vendors will or can conduct business. They simply can't conduct business that way and pay the bills. It took you months to pay the camshaft off. And you wanted Paul to build the entire engine?? It was some of those reasons why Paul told you that you would be better off finding someone else to build your engine.

And you can think what you want but you are completely wrong about Paul and Jeff. This forum had nothing to do with Paul flying out and fixing that engine. It simply took Joe to come to his senses and calm down, talk rationally and come up with a reasonable game plan. Paul and Jeff stand behind their work, and are very easy people to deal with. I've seen it first hand, I know the guys on a personal level. There is no way anyone on this forum has any right to judge someone's character without meeting someone in person first, and anything otherwise is just opinion, nothing else. Most that want to talk smack is just that, key board heroes that have no idea what a person is like. That entire thread was a lot of BS from people that didn't know the situation or the people involved. Some look for help and like to help, that's fine and what this forum is for, but 50% of that thread should have been tossed.

If I had only sent 5 and 10 dollars a week to pay for the camshaft I would still be paying for it.

Formulajones,
I came to my senses when I posted on the forum that the engine failed on the dyno. I was calm throughout because I knew I was right. A reasonable plan should have consisted of correctly fixing this engine after it failed on the dyno. Rod 5 & 6 had to be replaced and thats the same cylinder that had the collapsed piston skirt. Two machinists that don't know each other looked at this piston and said the piston was "smoothed out" to hide a defect or dent. Paul also said he couldn't stand installing pistons that were dirty and had carbon...thats funny, he didn't clean the dirty ones in my garage before he installed them. Matter of fact...he went straight to #5 when he had the heads off! I'm taking that piston to another machinist to get a 3rd opinion tomorrow.

Since I met Paul, I guess that qualifies me to give my opinion. He stayed at my house, I paid for meals and got to know him. He told me that he was going to pay me back the $2,575 that they charged me when I sent the motor back and they "fixed" it. He said he thought that was fair. Paul spoke to Jeff and I got a text from Paul that said Jeff agreed to give me my money back. I sent them a financial settlement agreement that protects BOTH of us and guess what...they went ghost. I've sent them a few texts and phone calls and not one return call or text. Also, apparently the manufacture of Icon pistons shows you where to take proper measurements of the piston. A little different than what Paul did! Thats another reason why none of us believe the engine was apart.

The very definition of lip service.