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Searching for the Unicorn...Ram Air IV block
Trying to locate the original XP code motor from my 1970 judge automatic. Others have found their long lost loves on this site so I thought I'd give it a try too...
My car was sold in south Texas and remained there for many years. The son of the deceased original owner says that his dad blew the motor in 1972 or so and the dealer replaced it with "another engine". I have a 1971 SR Ram Air IV block which will be built with 614 heads and 1970 RA IV intake. However it would be monumental if I could find the original block through the resources of all the knowledgeable Judge guys here in this forum. Here is what I'm looking for...XP coded block from a June 1970 build car. VIN R157410 Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks Carl |
Welcome to PY Carl and good luck with your search. Tell us more about the car like color, options and possibly post a few pictures.. We all here like pictures. Also define Northwoods??
Cheers, Brew |
You's guys must be neighbors, eh :snow:
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the Northwoods means south of the Canadian border and north of Chicago. That's all I'll say for now. I've purchased this car after having my 69 Judge stolen so, as you can imagine, I'm a little reserved on info with where I live. 1970 Ram Air IV Judge, Polar White, currently with black wing and hood scoops. Formula wheel, AM radio, Auto, PS, PB, Rally gauges, 3.90 axle, Ride/Handling, tinted glass ALL and white letter tires. sold in south Texas and is in great shape. front nose needs a bit of attention but otherwise very nice. I have original paperwork from dealer where the original owner ordered the car and worked since he was 17 years old. He has since passed away. Working with his son to try and get some photos of the car when it was new...to see if it truly was a WT7 car. The son said his father blew the motor in 72 or 73 so there is a very healthy 70 WT motor in it now. That motor will be replaced with a 1971 SR Ram Air IV block, 614 heads and aluminum intake with crossover...original RA IV manifolds too. I'm still waiting to verify whether the engine has the original alternator, distributor and carb with it. Pics to follow soon I'm looking for a set of nice JT rims for it as it has fatter Rally II wheels on it now. Carl |
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My first set of tasks will be to install yellow/red/black stripes and decals to replace the lime motif that the previous owner went with...replace the outer mirrors with correct pieces and paint the hood tach white.
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Welcome Carl!
I waited till others spoke; SR blocks have been something of a curiousity to me, the fact that you have paperwork showing the block was replaced under warranty it pure gold as far as I'm concerned. I have read it said here something to the effect that before a block would get authorized for warranty replacement, that the zone rep would see to the block getting irreparably destroyed. This would make, to me at least, the odds of finding your original block, next to nil... but I agree, there is no harm in looking! Let me see if I can find a good quote for you... In the mean time, this link might be of interest to you: Wallace Racing's Lost/Found Engine or Transmission Search |
Sweet!
Shame Darrel Yoder isn't still with us, I'm sure there's a good story behind that Judge. Darrel was a longtime Pontiac collector, there may be S Texas Pontiac buddy's of his that know the history of that car. '70 XP's... Know of an original '70 XP shortblock that was in a '69 Judge for near 40 years. It is Oct '70 dated, also out of an Arlington build, but too early for your '70. The owner passed 2 years ago but really have little interest in what happened to his Judge. when i had dealings with him into the early 90's, he swore his '69 was a real RAIV 4spd Judge. As with other big whopper lies from him over the years, the truth came out. |
here's a good one:
Warranty on RAIV block Quote:
That's a beautiful GTO!! |
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oh, I don't doubt there were exceptions.
just trying to be realistic. |
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now that I'm looking back over the posts, I definitely don't see what I thought I saw. I totally get where you're coming from though... This might be a good read: LINK I have loved delving into the nitty gritty of the details on these cars - even though my car will NEVER be worth anything remotely like yours, I have started down a rabbit trail of my own on getting the car as close to 100% correct as possible. I know a 1970 RAIV block was offered by a guy in BC last year(?); He's since had a tragedy that had him liquidate and get out of the hobby, but before that all went down, I saved pictured of a stitched up 1970 RAIV block he had for sale: (click on the images to enlarge them) |
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Good luck with the search for ra4 block. This forum is a good place to get the word out. |
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I wont lose any sleep when it comes to finding the original block...in fact, when I purchased this car I was strongly considering putting in a McCarty Ram Air V engine. the truth be told, that may have been a more economical solution rather than going the route I'm going now with the RA IV parts $$$$$$$ |
Johnny
I've read that link before...thanks for sending it...lots of great info there on SR blocks. I bought the 1971 SR Ram Air IV block 9799915 as I thought it would be the "correct" date code for an engine that would have blown in 1972 as the son has suggested. I've read other posts here on the PY forums that suggest that a proper engine swap would have the cars VIN stamped into the block by the Pontiac service tech that made the change. what are your thoughts on res-tamping an SR block with the correct VIN and XP code? I want the engine to be as correct as possible for this car without implying its an original numbers matching block but still stamping it the way a dealer would have done in 72 when performing a swap with an SR block. My initial thoughts would be to stamp the VIN next to the SR code and then stamping an XP into the normal location on the block. comments? |
Car really looks Great - and all the hard work is already done.
Gotta love it from that perspective ! I wouldn't do any further stamping on the block. imo Very very few SR's have any additional information//data stamps on them. I think that was very loose protocol. You asked about Buildsheet location prospects in the other thread. Since the gas tank is new, the springs of the seats and under carpet layment are next best bets. However, i have very few Arlington samples at all. o'Ph might have more info being a Texan and having parted out numerous cars. I'm not sure if they were even always typically found on Arlington cars. The lack of specimens i have on file makes me wonder ... If i had a White 70 Judge - it would get WT7'ed - unless it had Blue or Green interior. With the old myth about Arlington Only WT7 ,,, not many would dispute it. Most would likely expect it to be WT7 . |
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Pontiac experts
take a look at the engine shot of my car. note that I do NOT have this car in my possession until next week and I have only had a muscle car friend of mine look it over when it was on the west coast. He did verify the WT code block, PD automatic and XK rear but no specifics on carb, distributor or other misc items. please comment on what intake is on this car. it appears aluminum with the Winters logo on the top and the secondary heat riser appears to be mounted correctly to a crossover...what do you see? |
I think the trans should be a PQ code?
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1970 Ram Air IV Automatic
AG
According to the 1964-1970 GTO Restoration guide. No PQ automatic transmissions used in 1970...only 1969 for the Ram Air IV. The exception could be if it was an early 1970 car...??? Paul Zazarine and Chuck Roberts say that three flavors of M40 used in 1970 GTOs...PY for standard engines, PD for (both) Ram Air engines and PR for 455 engine equipped cars. Here is another source I use...https://www.andysautosport.com/learn...transmissions/ Comments from the peanut gallery? |
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Each year had a different part number//casting number from 69-72 You'll have to wait and see it defacto |
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That gives me hope that there may be other items that were used on the WT block ie Carb, distributor, etc.. I'm hoping its the correct 9799084 intake. The transport driver is supposed to show up here on Monday...the day we're getting 10-15" of snow :snow:. Once I get the car into the garage I will post a new thread here to let others live vicariously through my exploits of 'running the numbers' on the car...should be fun. More soon Carl |
what some people don't realize is that a WT engine was essentially the RAIII with a different cam, and standard exhaust manifolds;
Add to that some WT engines were four bolt main blocks (most 1970 400 engines were drilled and tapped for four bolt mains, but only two bolt caps were installed) - according to the 1970 Pontiac 'Performance Catalog' the WT engines were supposed to all be four bolt mains. |
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I think in 70, the PD was used on the A-body, but the PQ was used on the Firebird with RA IV? I'd have to look at the service bulletins, seems there was one on the PQ, but it might have been for 1969. :confused: |
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70=Model Year PD=400,Ram Air III,Ram Air IV, Application 1234=Transmission Serial Number Application Codes PD=400,Ram Air III,Ram Air IV * -NOTE - this reference shows a PQ for 1970 but lists it as a standard 400 trans. 1969 A body GTO 69=Model Year PQ=400,Ram Air IV, Application 1234=Transmission Serial Number Application Codes PT=400,2 barrel PQ=400,Ram Air IV PX=400,All non-Ram Air/non-2 barrel ref * - https://www.andysautosport.com/learn...transmissions/ |
ref - http://www.tpocr.com/pontiactc.html
1970 V8-400 Pontiac PB V8-400 Ram Air GTO PD V8-400 Tempest, Grand prix PT V8-400 4 Bar. carb., Grand prix PW V8-400 2 Bar. carb., Firebird PF V8-400 Sport option PX V8-400 Ram Air H.O. PQ V8-455 Exc.H.O. Pontiac PA V8-455 H.O. Pontiac PC V8-455 Heavy duty Pontiac PH V8-455 H.O. Tempest, Grand Prix PR It appears from this source that the PQ was for the 400 HO (aka Ram air III) firebirds |
Searching for the Unicorn...Ram Air IV block
Yes PQ was used in both the 69 and 70 firebirds/TA’s with ram air III or IV
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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1970 Bsheets for Ram3 Auto and Ram4 Auto - both are PD Trans
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1576164339 https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1576164339 |
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1970 Trans Am Bsheet - Ram3 Auto = PQ Trans
... anyone know the difference(s) between 1970 PD and PQ ? shift point ? https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1576165460 |
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those are some seriously cool records you come up with. I can only dream about finding a build sheet like that under my carpeting. I have been told that Arlington cars had two places where a build sheet could be found...on top of the tank and under the carpet on the drivers side of the car...do you agree with this? Carl |
If HFR and oPh say so - i'd invest in it and endorse it. :D
Never had any Arlington experiences first-hand myself. Hope you get lucky under that carpet |
the only broadcast sheets I've ever ran across between the carpet or vinyl flooring & floor insulation were in Pontiac plant A-body's, & they were stuck on pass side of front floor tunnel & heavily soaked up a coationg from the black tar paper covered type underlayment. Pontiac plant broadcast sheets are the small style like the last one posted by BVZ.
Arlington plant, have discovered quite a few, the last one was only a partial & was above the glove box area taped to the inner shell of a '70 dash. Above the gas tank, under original rear package tray, if car's pkg tray was not hacked for 6x9's is another place they occasionally show up. Early '70's Lakewood plant built A's & GP's, behind the drivers side door panel, most will have one if door panel & water shield have not been disturbed. |
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Arlington car with one above tank, no such luck under carpet. I did find a cheat sheet tossed under rear seat. It was a hand scribbled note on brown paper. Almost thru it away until I recognized codes for interior color, 8 track, and a few others. I kept it because it belongs with the car. Last person to touch it probably was installing trim and seats.
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One of these 1970 Arlington Bsheets was definitely in the floor pan.
The other one , possibly . The only 2 i have on file from Arlington 1970 https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1576259127 https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1576259127 |
My Arlington built 68’s buildsheet was found under driver’s carpet and underpayment.
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Updates on my Judge...
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If you have been following this thread, and another (WT7 thread) I've been commenting on, you've read that I spoke with the original owners son that purchased the Judge I now own. I reached out to all of those relatives of Armando Sr. in Texas that I could find offering compensation for any info on their father or his 1970 GTO Judge. I was contacted by a person claiming to be his son. "Aldo" told me some basic history on the car and then hung up on me...I thought that was a bit strange until today...when I spoke with the ORIGINAL OWNER of my Judge. It seems the person I spoke with is related to the family but may have been looking for money in exchange for any history he could provide on the car and it now appears possible he was calling me from the penitentiary where he spending his days for fraudulent behavior...thus the quick hang-up. My original posting stated that the original owner of my car worked at Yoder Pontiac in McAllen TX but its now been revealed that the SON of the original owner was the one that purchased the car from Yoder. Still with me??? Armando Sr. started at Yoder as a detail man and go-fer for the dealership when he was 17 and worked there until he retired at 70. According to his son; Armando Jr., his dad was a hard working guy with poor English but a great work ethic. In 1970, Armando Jr was ready to purchase a new Ram Air IV Trans Am from the dealer where his dad worked. Armando Jr said that he'd read all about the new for 1970 F body Trans Am and the news about its available Ram Air IV motor. When he went to order the car, his father intervened and, with the help of old man Yoder, convinced his son to stay away from the Trans Am and go with a GTO instead. Yoder said Pontiac was giving him fits with ordering the F body cars and basically said they couldn't supply one with a Ram Air IV. Yoder wanted Armando Jr to order up a 1970 Judge instead that could sit in his showroom to entice others into considering a Judge too. Yoder also pushed Jr into buying the car with an automatic trans and the 390 rear axle claiming it was the best street combination coming out of Pontiac at the time. That said, Jr ordered up the 1970 Ram Air IV Judge with automatic and 390 rear end along with the Formula steering wheel he'd read about and a hood tach. He checked off a few other boxes including gauges, PS, PDB and the upgraded suspension package too. Armando said when the car finally arrived at the dealer in June of 1970 he was at work and his dad called him to tell him the car had arrived. Jr jumped into his 69 Grand Prix and hustled over to the dealer to see the car sitting on the transport semi rig. The driver started up the car to drive it off of the transport rig and Armando said that he'd never heard a Pontiac sound the way that car did when they fired it up. He said it seemed like forever to get the car off of the transport rig and when they finally did, Yoder told him that they had to "dealer-prep" the car and he couldn't take delivery for a full week...part of the deal Yoder worked out with his father (Armando Sr.) as a way to keep the car on the showroom for others to ogle over. Armando said he was scared the dealer was going to sell the car out from under him. But after the week was up he went and waited all day until the close of business when he was given the OK to take the car. (He had more patience than I would have had!!!) Armando was 21 in 1970 when he took delivery of his Ram Air IV Judge. Armando said the car was a magnet for the local cops with its lumpy cam and skinny Wide Oval tires that would screech and bark at every traffic light. He lost his license twice but said it was worth the hassle. Armando drove the car until the late 80s when he said he had engine problems and took the engine out of the car along with the removal of the hood, fenders and front end. The car sat next to his house in San Diego TX waiting for him to gather the money to have the engine rebuilt. He claims a rod was thrown that may have damaged the block but he never knew because a "Pontiac racer" from nearby Rio Grande City TX came by and offered him a substantial amount of money for the 614 heads. Armando said he was broke and needed the money so he sold the heads. Shortly after that, another guy came by that wanted to buy the whole car. Armando said he was reluctant but the guy kept coming by on a monthly basis and, finally, his persistence paid off and Armando sold him the car. Armando said the guy was stationed at the nearby naval base in Kingsville TX and had plans to race the car. Armando said he cried the day the guy came to take the car away. This was 1987. All of this information was provided to me today when I received a call from Armando after tracking him down through a member of the band that he plays keyboards in. I found him on LinkedIn of all places. He said he was apprehensive about calling me and thought maybe I was a scammer looking to cause some trouble. We talked for over an hour and we had to stop a couple of times as he broke down crying while reminiscing over his car. He was completely shocked that it was still around. He claims to have some original paperwork and possible some pictures of the car when he brought it home. I have my fingers crossed! Armando is a great guy and he has a great memory having asked me about specifics of the car. I sent him some photos and he was quick to point out the incorrect Green/Yellow Judge stripes now installed on the car. Then I asked him the magic question...'did the car have a black spoiler on it when you purchased it'...he said NO. It had a white wing with BLUE and Yellow stripes indicating it wasn't a WT7 car as I had hoped. However, after hearing his story, I wouldn't trade the history of the car for anything and I plan to bring the car back to its original state with the white wing, blue judge stripes and decals and the white hood tach. I plan on flying down to Corpus Christi this spring to meet Armando and share some Judge memories...ones that he remembers and ones that I will be making in the mean time. It was a good day today! |
Awesome story!
Glad you found/talked to the original owner finally. A RAIV Judge would be awesome to own, even if not a WT-7. :) |
really cool you were able to connect with the original owner.
Nice to know the history of the car from back when it was new. |
Great story and awesome you had the chance to connect.
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wow!
Congrats on tracking down the original owner! What a stroke of fantastic luck!! |
Dealerships were pretty lax on the requirements for destroying blocks replaced under warranty.
Around 1984, I ran into a guy who was employed by a Pontiac dealership in the Charlotte NC area from about 1965 to 1974. He had a 1963 Catalina with a 1967 428HO with a 66 tripower setup. He also had five or six 4-bolt 400s, 428s and 455s that were replaced by the dealership he worked at. A couple of the blocks had repairable damage, such as a crack in a cylinder wall, while there appeared to be nothing wrong with the rest. The undamaged blocks were bare, so they probably had spun rod bearings. This guy was close to his service manager, since they both bracket raced. His service manager retired and downsized a few years later, and I acquired an additional 5 or 6 4-bolt blocks he had stashed. |
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I know that we all appreciate old school photos of Judges from back in the day so here is one for all of us to enjoy. This one was circa 1975.
Armando says he was going for the "funny car look" with the narrow front tires and the fatties in the back. Also check out the zoomies exiting from the front of the rear tires. He also said he had the wing painted black and it didn't come off of the transport that way. He confirms the car had the white wing with BLUE Judge stripes. |
Big time congrats on such a great chain of events about your new Judge.
Really cool that he still had an old photo of the car . They look great with Blue stripes and i like a White spoiler better than Black. WT7 is mainly just a cool oddity because it is so rarely actually documented - as opposed to how heavily it was promoted in the 70 Judge ads. Can only guess that maybe some - or many - of White 70 Judge new car orders assumed they would come standard like the cars in the promo ads. It would have been a neat ice-breaker to discover a WT7 from the Arlington plant. Find myself wondering more and more if Fred actually meant to type that None were built at Arlington - rather than All were built there. 1970 was the year of the unicorns . WT7 Judges - 51 built / 3 documented 455HO Judges - 14 built / 1 documented |
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