Decided on the 703 cam, need help choosing valve train?
 

After many coin flips, I've decided on the 703 voodoo. Now let's get the rest of the valve train picked? I have the 400 large valve heads with all exhaust thread holes. Lifters? I'd like a cam saver, or cool face style just for insurance, also made in USA. Now for rockers? Will Harland S, go under stock covers? I've used them before (on AMC engines), and think their great. Now for springs, need 135lbs / 325lbs , or similar! Lunati sells springs, or should I use something else.
Spring retainers, locks? Stock guide plates ok?

Only cam saver type lifters that I know of are the Crower Cam Savers & the Rhoads Super Lubes.

The cool face lifters are solids, I think.

Most guys here will probably recommend the HyLift Johnson "R" lifters, from Paul Knippen.

One way to get Hylift Johnson cores & the Super Lube feature is to go with the Rhoads. Most don't recommend Rhoads lifters for the Voodoo cams. But, as Cliff has explained here many times, if you buy the V-max Rhoads, you can adjust 'em for the amount of bleed down you want.

But the Rhoads V-max Super Lubes ain't cheap.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RHOADS-SUPE...-/264038113633

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/r...w/make/pontiac

https://www.jegs.com/i/Rhoads-Lifter...518XL/10002/-1

For all I know, the Crower Cam Savers may also use Hylift Johnson cores. There has always been lots of HFT lifter debate here. Some think the Eaton, made in Mexico lifters have caused problems. Don't know who supplies the lifters any of the cam companies sell.

As for rocker arms this recent thread may be helpful:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=836523

If no one offers the HyLift Johnson "R" lifters, with the cam saver oil grove, I've read bout guys doing it their self? Anyone on hear had trouble with the crower? Not really looking for budget rockers, I'm going with the HS, just wondered bout under stock cover, spacer needed?

I've never seen the need for "cam saver" type lifters in one of these engines. With the open lifter bore area I've glanced down there many times while priming these engines and BOAT-LOADS of oil is running down on the camshaft lobes and the oil is still thick and cold.

IF you have doubts about lobe failures take the money not spent on those expensive lifters and send the cam out to be ion-bonded or "coated". Then run the Hylift Johnson or Rhoads V-Max lifters on it if you want a variable duration lifter that's adjustable for the amount of "bleed-down" at low RPM's.

Your cam will come back looking like it was chrome plated. It's not that expensive and without any oil at all has the lubricating capacity of 5W-30 motor oil. It will last just about forever and if nothing else you will sleep better at night.........Cliff

What year heads are you running as determines the valve lenght needed and in turn the the valve springs needed?

Low comp heads have a 4.980" installed height with a factory valve job ( not recut!) and if you run the standard high comp valve lenght to be able to run more then .500" lift saftly then you will have about a 5.110" installed height, but then you also need to setting in on what retainers you are running as the aftermarket retainers will give a different seat pressure.

Any links to where you can send a camshaft to be ion bond coated?

Hopefully this link will help:

https://www.ionbond.com/about-ionbon...locations/usa/

:)

If you don’t mind me asking, what were your other cam options? I had the 703 in my 400 for a short amount of time but ultimately decided it was too tame for me and went with the 704.

I bought my springs and retainers from Lunati and brought them to my machine shop and had them set everything up at the correct height.

If interested Comp Cams offers Camshaft Nitriding.

Nitriding is recognized by metallurgists worldwide as one of the most effective ways to increase the case hardness and lobe surface lubricity of flat tappet cams, all in an effort to enhance both break-in and long-term durability. Pro Plasma Nitriding is a patented process that uses pulsed nitrogen plasma to infuse nitrogen ions into the part – strengthening and fortifying the material on a molecular level, through a depth of approximately 0.010 of an inch. Once again, COMP Cams has proven their technological leadership by becoming the first aftermarket valve train company to own and operate a Pro Plasma Nitriding service in-house..


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More often than not calling Lunati is similar to calling Comp Cams tech. Depending on the cubicle your phone call is routed to Comp often just regurgitates the use of their 995 valve spring.
Similar to Lunati with almost all their hydraulic cams, including the Voodoo line, they say to use their 73949 valve spring.

From Jegs:

Lunati 73949 Dual Valve Springs
Seat Load: 120 lbs/in @ 1.650

From that you need to evaluate your installed height.

Some might even suggest less pressure, a low 113-115 lbs has been suggested.
That is quite a bit less compared to Paul Carters actual experience, including his dyno testing Voodoo lobes.
Regarding that low amount, Paul's response...

"They will be a little weak. You need to shoot for 125-130 lbs. on the seat, and over 300 open with the 30° intake seat. Otherwise you might experience valve bounce from the flat seat angle.
The Voodoo cam has a very gentle closing ramp, but still the 30° seat needs pressure."

And I will suggest that is probably his suggestion for a minimum and AFTER they have lost a bit of pressure with run in.

No matter what brand just remember never trust catalog stated pressures, they can and do vary. Test them at your intended installed height with the retainers you plan to use.


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Whichever lifters you use, get ones with removable snap rings, and disassemble & clean them.


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+2

If your lifters don't have HD snap rings in them and just the little bent wires replace them with good snap rings. ONE time I didn't do that and ended up pounding one of those retaining wires out of the lifter and had to pull the intake to fix it. That was on a stock 318 engine I rebuilt for a friend of mine about 25-30 years ago.

In other words snap rings are cheap and going back into an engine because you saved $10 is expensive in more ways than one......FWIW......Cliff

What failed to let the pre-load off the plunger so it could hammer the wire clip?

Once hydraulic lifters are adjusted the clips are pretty much just there, not doing anything.

Clay

Jones on EDM oiling lifters below, this is a benefit I'd want.

703 or 704 , were my options. I decided 703, because of 3:15 gear, max red line of 5500(with rev limit set 5700), stock converter, daily driver, wife, daughter can drive it, non sticky tires, and I've had cars with a cam a tad too big, 1 a tad small is much more street friendly. Also, I've had a 702 in this engine, with low compression pistons, it was a beast, but run out of steam bout 4500rpm.

Now back to questions. I'm going with the Hylift Johnson. Does their R lifter make noise like Rhodes? Went to their web site and read all, but didn't say at what rpm they stop bleed down, or if they made noise? They offer a cam face hole special order?
After reading cliffs post bout all the oil going to cam, I may do nothing?
Or cut my own grove?
When the heads come off I'll question again bout springs and setup?
Still 2-3 weeks from teardown, gotta repair my son's farm tractor!

And, anyone know of a decent machine shop within 100 miles of east TN?

"max red line of 5500"

Source ?
Estimate based on previous cam ?
If from Lunati website don't put too much into it. Cam website information can be like throwing darts at a board.
Or from a similar dyno proven Pontiac combination ?

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Dyno with a 703
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=776169

Merry Christmas!

X2 on Steve C’s post.

Lifter face oiling is only on solid lifters. Hydrualic lifters with the oiling mod have a small groove the outside of the lifter. If there is a face oiling option on a hyd lifter I have not heard of it. As cool as it would be, unfortunately, face oiling effects the hyd lifters function to much. A lot more $$$ for EMD drilling thru the face versus a groove on the outside. Outside groove usually adds $20-$30 or so, may not help much, certainly won’t hurt. More oil should be directly on the face of the lobe.

Johnson R lifter are not variable duration, not much anyway. They just have a slightly higher bleed down rate than stock so they do not pump up at high rpm. You could run them, but really do not need them unless your planning on running extended periods past 6000 rpm.

Other members have said the HS rockers fit under the stock valve covers using the 5/16 thick gaskets. It is tight. I ran crane 1.65 under stock valve covers with a solid roller cam, took some work to do that.

The 703 really does not have much more rpm potential than a 702. It has more overlap and more lift. But the intake closing and the exhaust opening are within a couple degrees of each other between those two cams. 703 will make more hp than a 702, but at about the same peak rpm. A couple hundred rpm higher for the 703 over the 702 would be about it. It will be a beast in the midrange though in a 455. At 5700 it will sound like the 455 with the 703 is going to come thru the hood.

My reasoning is stock resized rods with ARP fasteners!

My point was that the combination may not make its peak power at 5500 rpm. Not the ability to "rev it" to that or a higher rpm.

For information only:
Crower Part Number: 66056X3-16
Hydraulic Lifters CamSaver Pont & Olds V8

Regarding valve springs if it were me I'd look at PAC Racing or K-Motion for a suitable spring for adequate pressure with the Voodoo lobe.


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That looks nice!
If I opted for the 704? Would the off idle tq, still be in the 400s?
Would I gain more than 20 HP @ or below 5500rpm?
It ant too late, I ant ordered it yet!
Also the 704 has lift over .500, would that add extra work to the heads and train?
I'm getting the impression the 704, in most opinion, is still a smallish cam?

Also I've emailed https://www.ionbond.com/about-ionbon...locations/usa/, for a quote on coating? I'll post results?

I cant say what your numbers will be vs the 703 but will say that when I was running the 704 cam in my otherwise stock 400 it pulled very hard off-idle and had excellent street mannors.

manual trans or auto with stock converter?

Manual trans

Honestly, I think it's a waste to coat/treat a HFT type valvetrain, the returns are so minimal it's not worth considering. The prior 'issues' which were experienced during the so-called 'oil' days has been debunked. For that money, you could go to a solid roller setup and pick up power. (Which you really wouldn't see in a coated app)

Manual trans' tend to be more forgiving when it comes to 'bigger' cams, I see where you're going with that P_C...


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If your rebuilding your heads from the ground up so to speak and want to step into the 21ist century in terms of valve train set up, then get Butlers F5066-8 Intake valve set and the Exh valve set F5063-8.

These valves are RA4 lenght valve and will allow you to use Comp Cams 26918 Beehive type springs and super light steel retainers!

No machinging will be needed to make this swap over happen, in fact you will only need to shim the spring a little to get its needed 1.80" installed height and 125 psi on the seat.

At 1.80" installed height these springs are good for .650" before coil bind.

Beehive springs do everything right!

Mostly curious bout the cost of coating .
I bought new Ferro (spelled wrong), valves when the 400 heads went on.
I've never used bee hive, but will consider once head is off and measured.
I have CC dual springs now, don't remember number the R hi lift J lifter claims to tame the cam a bit at low rpm?
And if the 704 pulled off idle in a 400, it ought to be even tamer in a 455!
I'm reconsidering the 704 now?

I'm going to say everyone is different.. LOL
Members like Tom S will tell you he would hate a Voodoo 704 in a 400 engine with a stick. Yes, the 455 will be much more tolerant to a larger cam than the 400.

P.S, you will need longer push Rods .

What about the hi lift J, R lifter, do they tick, and do they tame the lower rpm a bit?
And I have budgeted bout 1K, for the valve train, and 3 angle valve job, is this realistic?

Talk to Paul, he's dyno'd more voodoo cams and custom versions of them than anyone I know. He would be the guy that could steer you in the right direction and has the most experience with how they act and perform.

Since you're dealing with a 455 I wouldn't look at anything with less than 230 @ .050 so the 703 would be an absolute minimum, and probably too small for my taste. Lunati will also send these cams with a wider LSA if you wish.

You do not want a Chevy type 3 angle valve job on Pontiac D port iron heads unless your changing over to a Intake valve with a 45 degree seat which you should not do anyway for your type of motor build!

If your paying a shop for a 3 angle valve job it needs to be a 30 degree main seat taken out to .010" of the Intake valves OD.
This main seat should be .050" wide which should followed by a 45 degree angle .030" wide and what's left should be a 60 degree to mate up with the factory bowl cut.

I'm almost convinced the 704 would be a better choice after studying all the post.
The 704s lift gets a tad over.500 , will that create additional head work?
I had a 3 angle done when I changed the 400 heads.
Took for granted the shop knew what to do?
Ive already port matched the heads. Is their any other minor work i can do myself?
And thanks to all for the help, for a guy with a non Pontiac car, you all have treated me like family!

I'm just speaking for myself based on my own experiences, but from what I can gather from reading, you're wanting a tame driver. With just a 3.15 gear and I assume no stall converter at all, I may not want a 704 cam in it.

703 should work with a setup like that without much tuning effort, and idle pretty smooth, provided the cam is installed at the right ICL.

To give you an idea, here is a custom voodoo cam on a 112 LSA, with 239/243 @ .050 in a 455. Quite a bit bigger than what you're looking at. It's installed on a 106.25 ICL. Keep in mind the voodoo cams prefer to be installed about 6 degrees advance based on Paul's dyno testing.

Once warmed up it idles with only a very slight lope and actually acts pretty tame in and out of gear and makes 12-13 inches of vacuum up here at 5,000 feet elevation. Engine made 507hp/571tq with ported iron heads, stock intake, stock exhaust manifolds etc... It actually peaked at 5500 rpm but carried that power to 5700 rpm, and made over 500 ft lbs. throughout the pull.

https://youtu.be/AOqwz3QlO5k

Are you saying don't follow the cam card, advanced beyond card spec 6deg?
I was already thinking if I went with the 704 I might adv 2 deg, but 6 seems like a lot?

I don't know what your particular cam card says but according to Paul the voodoo lobe designs like to be about 2 degrees more advanced than what the cam card says.

For instance if it's on a 112 LSA and says 108 ICL, shoot for 106 ICL.

I had my 702 straight up, it was way mild in a 455, but pulled hard of idle to 4800.
If I don't change my mind(again) I think I'll try the 704 (advanced 2deg).
With the hi lift J, R, lifters.

6 degrees is what Paul recommended, and that's exactly where i installed my Voodoo 702. The results speak for themselves. https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...d.php?t=836191

Those are dang nice numbers for a small engine! I'll get in touch with Paul, and get some recommended specs.

I need to clarify. The cam card says install at 108, and Paul said to install at 106. Brain fart as far the 6 degrees. So 2 degrees advanced of the 108 the card recommends for an install of 106. Sorry about that.

Which is 6 degrees advanced.

Keeping in mind installing at the recommended ICL of 108 is already 4 degrees advanced. Technically it should fall in there dot to dot as the cam is ground that way, but that is almost never the case. With crank keyways, cam keyways, and then cam gear keyways and crank gear keyways that all can be off a 1/2 degree or more, you have a lot of stacked tolerances working against you. So dot to dot does not always guarantee the ICL the cam card says it should be. I've had them off as much as 4-5 degrees at dot to dot which means that engine and camshaft is not going to perform as promised.

Couple the fact that Paul dyno's a ton of these camshafts and has inside knowledge working with Brookshire who designed the voodoo lobes. The idea of moving the cam further forward another 2 degrees I believe came straight from Brookshire and confirmed with Paul's dyno testing. This also helps with the intake and exhaust valve relationship they are looking for when the engine is at TDC on the exhaust stroke.

Don't know of any shops close by. Used to be some really good machinists in Asheville in the downtown area in the '50's-'60's but they were all run off when Asheville went "tourist town"

Best I know of is Wayne Sless in Greenwood, SC. He did the engine for 64Speed here and for Caster1 who is on here. I talked with Caster1 whose engine was done in Dec 2018 and he is still very happy with it and no issues.

Here are some links to Caster1's build along with a map link.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...86#post5973886

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0D6C...ature=youtu.be

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Green...43307355715592

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/John...3!2d34.1954001

Rebel, Best of luck to you no matter what you decide on machinist. I,too, am deciding between 703 and 704:noidea:

Ok, 2deg, from card seems more like it! I've done that before to tame race cams for the street. We have a couple machine shops bout 30 mile that do dirt track engine work. Their good but dought they have a tq plate for Pontiac. May use them anyway.

Might be a long shot but contact BHJ and ask sales if the have sold a torque plate to a shop in your area.

http://bhjproducts.com/bhj_content/contact/

Also try clubs in the area that might know of a shop.

https://www.pontiacregistry.com/find...b/listings.php

Related for interest......

Torque plate distortion evidence:
http://www.pontiaczone.com/forum/sho...d.php?p=347243


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Maybe I missed it, but have not seen in your tread where the compression of the engine is mentioned. That will effect the off idle to mid range throttle response, and whether the 703 or 704 is a better choice for the combo. Also effects the advance for each cam

I havent figured comp?
I'm using TRW L2359F-0.30 pistons, 6x4heads cut .020.
Estimate?

Around 9.3.
Think I'll go 704.

The milling of your heads and them having a valve job done if such was done is a wash, as in no CC reduction.