What oils are you flat tappet guys running?
 

Looking to do an oil change on my newly acquired Firebird and was curious to hear what you guys had to say. I’ve been running Delo in my other flat tappet cars. Thanks

Never mind. Just found a whole thread posted a couple weeks ago. I’ll stick with Delo or Rotella.

Valvoline VR-1 should be in the conversation, imho.

I use VR1 in all of my old cars

VR-1 is what I have been running in my 67 GTO since I got it. 10-30 weight.

Conventional Pennzoil (30W, as recommended) is all it has seen for decades. Since the zinc and phosphorus was reduced in oil, I add ZDDP-Plus every oil change.

VR1, with a can of STP.

Are you guys getting it at your local auto parts? I had to order it from Summit a few weeks ago.

I’ll look into VR1. Looks like a good alternative. Thanks

I get it at O’Reily’s and Advance Auto

Yup...local parts store

I only use Valvoline VR1 20w-50 that already has all the zinc needed in it.

I couldn't find it a few weeks ago at my parts store either. I wound up using another Valvolene product and added the zinc, courtesy of Lucas.

That’s what I’ve been running too.

As does Old Goat 67.

I've been running Rotella for years.

When I was a teenager in the 70s, the first thing my dad did when he bought a car was change the oil to diesel oil. He was a mechanic, so I assumed he knew what he was doing.

I didn't quite follow his footsteps at first. I ran Castrol 30HD and GTX for a number of years in my Pontiacs until I wiped out a cam lobe on my 74 T/A after only about 10K miles around 1996. That's when I started reading about the ZDDP being removed from the oils, so I switched to diesel.

I always ran Rotella in my 78 and 93 3/4 ton 454 Suburbans. I retired the 78 with over 300K miles and sold the 93 at 250K miles. I never had any oil related failures with Rotella.

EVERY old school mechanic I know runs the diesel stuff in flat tappet jobs... thats why I have done the same. It’s good stuff.

I would be careful on the diesel oils. As emissions standards for diesels change, the zddp content may change as well, or may have already. There are plenty of oils formulated specifically for old flat tappet engines, so for me personally I would either run one of those oils or use the additive unless I was truly certain the diesel formulation I was using had adequate zddp.

I'm adding the Lucas ZDDP Zinc Plus additive to Mobil One 15-50w. Going to switch that to Chevron Supreme 10-30w with the Lucas ZDDP at the next oil change.

This is what I run. I used to get it super cheap from Ruralking.com until they stopped shipping to California.

I used to run VR1 in my first Bird 40 years ago. Now it costs a small fortune, and they don't ship it to California anymore.

I guess you need a special license or hazmat suit to get it here.

I had an oil change at Valvoline in May. They don't carry it in stock, and you have to special order it with your oil change if you want it, a week in advance. I won't insult your senses with what they wanted to charge for it.

It was cheaper to pay my regular car service mechanic $25 for labor, and give him the Mobil One, the Wix filter and the Lucas ZDDP than to go to Valvoline with their $20 off special coupon.

Mobil 1 15W50 is what Mobil specifically recommends for flat tappet cams - it has all the ZDDP needed as it comes out of the bottle.

Link to Mobil 1 Engine Product Guide:

https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us...pecs-guide.pdf

15W50 is on page 3 at the bottom of page.

1200 PPM of Phosphorous and 1300 PPM of Zinc. "

Diesel
 

I run diesel oil with a bottle of Comp Cams Break in additive every oil change.

Would that not be overkill? If you use a diesel oil that in theory already has sufficient additive for a flat tappet, and then add the external additive wouldn't that result in too much zinc?

When I was looking into this I seem to remember reading that an overabundance of zinc anti wear additive can backfire and actually create wear.

Rotella 15/40

Comp cams and others have oil with zinc for these older cars . They also have break in oil and the zinc additive.
I order by the case with free shipping.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

I get mine at O'Reilly's but they don't carry it on the shelf. It was kept in the back where I got mine.

You're correct, too much zinc is as bad as too little when it comes to oils. As in many oil additives they screw up the OEM designed additive package by being heavy on one or two of the ingredients, throwing the engineering of the total package off.

Petrochemical engineers urge people to use the correct oil for the job at hand, rather than trying to re-engineer their own blends with additives.

As far as spending a ton of money on oil and using the same oil filter that is inferior you're really wasting money. Oil does not lose it's ability to lubricate, it gets dirty rather quickly and then starts abrading internal engine parts with the microscopic solids that full flow filters physically cannot remove.

Typically the best full flow filter will only filter down to 20-40 microns at an efficient level. By pass oil filters typically filter down to the 1-5 micron range at 98 % efficiency. Makes the engine as well as the oil and additive package last many times longer than standard filters.

Everything I own is high mileage, the lowest mileage vehicle I own is 105,000 miles on it. My wife's car has 300,000 miles on it that was bought new in 2008.

Pennzoil synthetic 10W-30 in the gas vehicles, Shell Rotella 15W-40, or Shell Rotella full synthetic 5W-40, in the diesels. I use by pass oil filters on the 140,000 mile LS2 GTO, and the 270,000 mile 6.5 TD. The vehicles I haven't yet converted to by pass filters get the Purolator Boss synthetic media filters.

The quality of the oil filter is more important than what brand of oil you purchase. The high quality oil filter also allows oil changes to be safely extended. The by pass filters allow me to extend drain intervals 3-4 times that of a conventional filter, usually 30-40,000 miles between oil changes.

I believe the high mileage vehicles I own prove the oil filter has more to do with low maintenance of engines rather than which brand of oil you use. I however buy the best value oil, (Pennzoil synthetic, Shell Rotella) without spending an arm and a leg for it, then make a concerted effort to keep the oil clean. I intend to have the whole fleet equipped with by pass oil filters during this year.

1988 IH S1600 7.3 IDI Diesel 208,000 miles
1993 K3500 6.5 Turbo Diesel 270,000 miles, (By pass oil filter)
1995 C3500HD 6.5 Turbo Diesel 246,000 miles
1999 Grand Prix 3.1 105,000 miles
2005 GTO LS2 140,000 miles, (By pass oil filter)
2008 Vibe 1.8 299,000 miles

:2cents:

I agree on the oil filter quality being important. I usually search out for the deep filters and avoid the shallow ones. In the 69 Bird/400 w/ac I'm using the Wix 51049 filter.

Those Purolator boss filters are nice- they are smaller than most so good for headers

I get Valvoline VR1 at the local Rural King store for $4.99 a quart, cheapest I've found.

If those 6.5 Turbos have never been apart you’re doing much better than most I’ve seen which tend to go bad at 150-200,000 miles.

Keep doing what you're doing and you'll be just fine. Delo or Rotella....Iv'e run either one with no issues.....and my engines stay together without problems for decades, not a couple of years.

There are lots of people that have no clue what it takes to keep 6.5 diesels together. Not to say that GM didn't have bad castings in the earlier ones, cracked blocks right up through the bulkheads just like Pontiac does when you overstress the blocks. The harmonic balancers have a habit of coming apart, and if you don't catch them they break the crankshafts soon after the balancer goes south.

They also had a propensity to crack cylinder heads from overheating, and blow headgaskets. ARP studs and good headgaskets usually solve that problem, but mine still have the factory bolts in the heads, one in the 95 is bubbling in the radiator so it probably has either a cracked head or a headgasket starting to go, I just acquired that one within the last 30 days, we'll see what happens with it.

The 93 runs just fine, has only had a waterpump changed out since I bought it in 2011, and I had to change out the injection pump when it took a dump.

They can be bought pretty cheap, and because they are mostly not heavy on electronics, you can fix them cheaply. Same engine that the military Hummers used until AM General quit making them.........:third:

I guess I lucked out with my two so far...........LOL

Plus they used cast cranks (in a diesel !) which was a weak spot as well. They also tended to run hot but GM fixed that around 1995 with dual thermostats. There was a control module under the intake that liked to go bad and the solution was to relocate it. Imo if you leave them stock except for updates and don’t overwork them they’ll do ok.

I just preferred the International 6.9 and 7.3s that Ford used a lot more as they were pretty tough engines. You just can’t expect them of the 6.5s to compete with these new diesels but they are much more simple and cheaper to repair.

Menards has VR1 $4.99 qt.

Lucas Hot Rod & Classic (High Zinc) 20/50 oil works well for my old school engines, no additives needed.
Some say it's pricey, I say you pay for what you need

Rotella T with a ZZDP additive.

I use Amsoil Z-Rod 10W-30. Brad Penn and Joe Gibbs driven have similar offerings, and I am sure they work just fine.

I am not one to play chemist by adding a bottle of ZDDP to the oil. How much is enough? How much is too much?

Here are the specifications on Amsoil Z-Rod for those that are interested:

Silicon = 4 ppm (anti-foaming agent in new oil, but in used oil, certain gasket materials and dirt can also add to this number)
Boron = <5 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)
Magnesium = 11 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)
Calcium = 2908 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)
Barium = 4 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)
Total detergent/dispersant (anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge) = 2927 ppm
Zinc = 1431 ppm (anti-wear)
Phos = 1441 ppm (anti-wear)
Moly = 52 ppm (anti-wear)
Total anti-wear = 2924 ppm
Potassium = <5 ppm (anti-freeze inhibitor)
Sodium = 0 ppm (anti-freeze inhibitor)
TBN = 8.3 (Total Base Number is an acid neutralizer to prevent corrosion. Most gasoline engine motor oils start with TBN around 8 or 9. And in use, this becomes depleted over time as mileage accumulates)
Viscosity (cSt at 100*C) = 11.6 (cSt range for SAE 30 is 9.3 to 12.4) And cSt (centistokes) in general terms, represents an oil’s thickness.

This oil is suitable for Classic Cars, High HP Street Hotrods and Street/Strip cars, as well as many dedicated race cars (including flat tappet setups and those with bronze dist gears).

ZDDP = small bottle to oil change, NO Chemistry degree needed! Its under 4 ounces.
Funny the anti foaming stuff gets posted. This is why you don't need the oil over 212 degrees...

Yeah, it's about as complicated as mixing oil and gas for your weedeater.

No Kidding. That's why my weed eaters run off of 110.

My question would be: What is the ZDDP content of the oil you are starting with before adding your additional 4 ounce bottle of ZDDP?

Surely, there are many different oil brands out there. Each oil inherently has a different ZDDP content to begin with. Some oils could be so low in ZDDP that a 4 ounce bottle won't do enough good, while oils already high in ZDDP might not need a stitch of your 4 ounce bottle of ZDDP additive. In summary, different oils will end up with different ZDDP levels using your same 4 ounce bottle of additive.

That is the only reason I make my "chemist" comment. At the end of the day, can you be absolutely sure you are arriving at the correct balance of ZDDP?

This is why I would rather leave this job to professional oil blenders. I trust them to know what the correct level of ZDDP actually is, and I trust them to produce a consistent and repeatable product, bottle after bottle.

I use Rotella T . It has zinc, but not enough. Too much will hurt Nothing.
Aside from all that, the biggest concern for zinc additive is with a fresh cam and lifters. Cam lobes do harden over time, and They really do not need as much as a fresh built engine might.
When you get deeper into this, racing oils have plenty, but are not synthetic, and are Made to change more often.

Link to Driven motor oil, Nov. 11 2019 video with oil analysis from 2 racing engines showing indeed too much ZDDP will cause more wear.

https://www.facebook.com/DrivenRacin...9323793001882/

Driven motor oil with oil analysis results compared to Mobil one racing oil showing more wear with much more ZDDP in a Nascar Truck series engine, and also a 360 sprint car engine. When over a certain threshold the package with more ZDDP actually shows more wear than a lesser amount of the same additive in the Driven oil.

More is not better, and actually when it's too much of a concentration it actually accelerates wear rather than fending off wear.

Making your own cocktail of oil additives isn't just as simple as pouring in 4 ounces of a concentrate containing ZDDP, and calling it good. The balance of the additive package is critical. Without doing oil analysis you're shooting in the dark mixing additives yourself.

It’s my understanding that stock engines with mild valve spring pressure don’t need as much zddp as a engine with a hotter cam and stiffer valve springs.

Ive sorta begun to come around to this way of thinking. Disclaimer here, I dont pretend to be an expert on this subject, but after reading, and hearing a fair amount of smart people talk about it, I think there has been a snapback effect to oils losing zinc levels. To the point where people are paranoid about it now.

In reference to stockish motors that dont have a lot of spring pressure, and arent running aggressive ramps. Seems like nearly all cam failures happen during break in. Once your cam is work hardened, I have a hard time seeing it go bad due to an 800 ppm zddp level instead of 1200 ppm.

The ONLY thing Ive ever seen than made me question this a little is I saw one study that said in paraphrase "After break in, the only time your cam really requires the additive zinc package is during the couple of seconds during startup when the whole engine doesnt have proper oiling yet."

Another note with regards to cam failure is that I think some of them come down to good old fashioned user error. How many people rebuild with stouter valve springs than they need?

Gee, had No idea this thread was about racing engines.
Since the old Castrol GTX days, and the reduction in Zinc, and installing 4 OZ extra in my Drivers, I have had no issues. I did get my oil tested a few times as one of my customers was a oil testing facility when I was working. When zddp first was offered, I used it in synthetic oil. At 15,000 miles used, the oil still passed all tests for its certification.
But, like most folks here in the Lobby, I was , and am not "Racing"
Basically speaking ALL current Motor oils from 5 Winter and up to 40 Summer will be 30X better than the non detergent motor oils of old. .

The ZDDP is the cheapest additive that chemical engineers could use to fend off flat tappet wear especially during break in. There are other additives that are able to do the same thing, but they are more expensive. It's perfectly plausible to have lower ZDDP concentration and still have other additives carrying the water, instead of ZDDP, you will pay more for oils with other wear agents substituted for ZDDP.

As the engineer says in the video I referenced said, the balance of the additive package is needed to get all the additives working in the same direction. Kind of like getting all the parts in a performance engine working in orchestration. One single part won't give you optimum performance if all the parts don't compliment each other. Balancing the formula to get the most from the sum of all the agents get the best result.

Gee, nobody said anything about only street engines, the topic was flat tappet engines. Flat tappets are used in all kinds of engines last I looked. The example that Driven used to illustrate about additives, and balancing the package. They happened to use 2 race engines because they show wear more rapidly. The point was made that too much ZDDP will cause more wear, not less. There is a point that the additive stops being beneficial, and causes galling and pitting.

The engine doesn't have to be a race engine, but I'm sure the blanket statement that, "you can't use too much ZDDP" made by you was only for street engines. It really doesn't matter as long as it's an IC engine, it applies to all reciprocating engines and wear properties of the oil.