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69 Goat restoration costs
Hi goat people,
Looking to restore the body on my 69 GTO. The body is not in bad shape but does need work to put it into "like new" condition. An initial estimate I got from a local classic car restorer in Southern California amounted to $46K. I had budgeted half that amount. Does that sound reasonable? Is it really that much? Should I shop around? Thanks! |
Just to add to this. I was actually quoted $43K with $37K in labor and $6K in parts
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Seriously, impossible for anyone here to give you an idea without a better description of the issues and photos would be a huge help. |
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If we assume the shop has a $100/hr shop rate that's 370 hours of labor, but labor rates are probably higher than that in your area. Whether that's too much or not enough will depend on how much work is needed, and if they do the final finish to just an OK level, or to a concours level.
As far as that goes, their quote should really only be an order of magnitude estimate - there's no way for them to know exactly how much work will be required until they strip the car down to bare metal. |
I was quoted $40k in San Diego just for a paint job. Clean, California car with original paint so not a rust bucket at all.
Not sure what is included in your $46k. Is this a frame off? Interior resto included in that price? |
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Thanks Mulcah, but this goat has sentimental value as I bought it as my first car when I was 16 and now I am 50 and finally have a little money to make improvements. So buying a new goat and selling this one is not an option.
From the estimate, which is too big of a file to attach, says 324 hours at an average of $114/hr, so about $37K in laborAttachment 538198 Attachment 538199. There is $22,750 just in paint work alone, with the remainder being disassembly, media blasting, chrome, weather stripping, polishing, felts, parts. The body is not in bad shape right now, very little visible rust, paint is decent, some scratches and dings. |
I'd consider the following:
DIY Shipping the car to a well respected painter/restorer outside of commiefornia. |
I don’t fall in love with my cars....that’s the problem with people. Your going to have more than twice as much money into it ...than it’s worth. In this case....it’s not cheaper to keep her...lol. But if you got the flow...it’s a go.
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What is the scope of the estimate? Full ground up nut and bolt restoration? Just Paint & body? How about interior, chassis/suspension and engine? $6k in parts seem light to me. You'll also probably end up with a final cost at least 1/3 more than the estimate.
IMO, being in California doesn't really have much to do with the price. If you drop a fully assembled car off at a shop to do a resto, that's a pretty time intensive operation. There's a lot of variables depending on the depth of work and products their using. $22k for paint and body may be a little on the higher end, but it's not totally out of the ball park. Also consider that a shop is likely going to farm out work like upholstery which is going to up your cost. If you are hands on, consider what work you'd be willing to do yourself. For example, disassembling and stripping the car for paint at home then reassembling would save you a couple thousand. Likewise, pulling the interior, ordering parts, and finding an interior shop on your own would whittle down the cost too. That's my two cents, anyway. I've rarely had a large chunk of change to invest in my car at one time so I've had to get crafty about restoring it. Then again, I also enjoy getting my hands dirty. |
Maybe inquire abour hourly rates elsewhere in well-established restoration shops in the midwest or lower cost-of-living areas out west. If you can find shops who perform similar quality work for 60 or 80 bucks per hour, it may be worth shipping you car and a couple plane trips.
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Shop around and find a guy who does body work and paint on the side. Ask to look at some cars he has painted. If you don't need a lot of metal work, you should be able to get it done for $10-$15k. That's body work and paint only. You can do the rest yourself.
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drive it and enjoy it !!!!!
spend the money on making it safe and dependable and DRIVE the tires off it !!!!! new tires if yours are over 5 years old.... brakes ... radiator ..lubes .... etc ..... it looks great !!! nothin wrong with patina and a little bling here and there ,,, it shows it get used and enjoyed,,,,,, I respect that alot .... nice paint jobs are a pain in my AZZ to have around ..... let alone use and store ..... cats dogs kids birds dust n dirt just my opinion of course ..... if you do have it done ... dont give deposits ... or just buy the materials .... I have seen many cars be held hostage in paint shops for years .... with the country slowly opening back up this fall ... "I" feel shops will take in all kinds of work and many large projects will be put on the back burner .... as stated above there are gentleman in the business ... but ,,, there are alot of salesmen also .. just remember ... it often takes twice as long as they quote or more.... and you will miss driving it for 2 years ... at least ... Scott T |
I agree with Scott 100%. I enjoy looking at original or older cars then I do restored ones. Enjoy it but IF you do restore her count on adding time and coin. Their just like a house in that sense if not worse.
Cheers |
Just my long winded 2 cents, and we know what opinions are good for :>). I understand where you are coming from. I bought my car when I was 22, and am now 62. Car was beat on way back when, was at my marriage, did tire smoke shows with my kids, Dad helped me with things along the way and taught me. etc. That has value and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. The car now is pretty, strong and functional as I chipped away over the last decade. It could have been done sooner but life gets in the way. Decided to make it stronger, dependable and also safe enough to hand off. I am a home garage guy so did my own detailing and interior. But I had the car stripped and painted and re-decaled (76 TA) by a real pro whom I have known forever, so trusted. Same for the engine. For more fun and driveability I did the EFI thing, coil over, lowering, Wilwood etc. and it is a real hoot. Okay. Cost. I spread it out. Is it worth what I put into it? Not sure, probably not but within reason, and because I spread it over a few years, I don’t really care. Is it cheaper to buy a finished project – from my experience yes, but that is moot for you, me and other’s like minded. It’s a hobby thing isn’t it? Your quote, I have no idea what it covers and what needs to be done. It does sound dear if you are looking at the body only, assuming it isn’t a total cheese factory. But for sure, as we have all or mostly all experienced, there will be surprises and they aren’t free. So, check around, focus on what your really want, use someone you really trust and don’t look back. It will never be financially effective, or almost never, especially when outsourcing. If you focus on body only, and have a pretty good understanding of its weakness, maybe go for the body work and paint based on a really good job but not frame off (unless the framed is f—d), and drive it saving some paint for the inevitable chips of being a driver. If it is to be a show piece, then ignore everything I wrote.
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When I repaint a rustfree and straight car (just needing dings and little dents straightened) it costs me between $12-25k for labor and paint and supplies. The going rate here is about $50 an hour. The low end is for a car that doesn't need the jams repainted and the higher end is for a car that the front clip comes apart to detail things like all the jams, front tubs, rad support etc.
Now this is at a body shop (a very good one) not a full resto shop. They don't have the expertise or the space to do full resto's. They do very nice work but I deliver them a car with all the trim removed and I do my own re-install of the emblems, chrome trim, interior, weatherstrip etc. I agree with the comments on shopping around, big cities, especially in California where the government has made doing business brutally expensive is not the place to go. |
Assuming this is NOT original Paint on the car now?? If it is, do what you need to do to keep it drivable / reliable and pass it on when your gone if the sentiment is there. At 50, you probably have better things to throw $50k at and unless it has some really unique options, the value post work just won't be there (Except to you of course).. At 60, I'm in the same boat with my 69 TA but it aint going anywhere.....
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Some people are happy with what is called patina these days, others prefer a car that looks like new or better. I fall mainly in the second camp, and have found it's not that hard to maintain a car with a real nice paint job - you just have to be a little more careful about where you park and how you wash and wax the thing.
If you determine that's the going price for what you want, and you have the funds, go for it. There was a recent discussion about spending more on a car than what it's worth if you were to sell it, and many people responded saying how they spent the money for their enjoyment and not for investment purposes. There's nothing wrong with that, if it's your choice. After all, people spend all kinds of money on other hobbies (golf, skiing, going on cruises, etc.) and they have nothing to show for it at the end; with a car, you will still have something you can enjoy for years to come. |
I like the drivers.....and I don’t judge....some cars look better untouched....and don’t have to worry about them
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Sentimental value clouds my thoughts about my rust bucket 69 GTO. Your car looks pretty damn good like some others have said. You have some tough decisions to make. Good luck!
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The price of a paint job in California isn't that much more than the rest of the country, modern paints are expensive and any painter that values his health and reputation for quality will use booths and proper respirators while taking his time with the eye for detail needed and all of that adds to the cost. If you want the shop equivalent of the rattle can or Earl Scheib\Maaco, it will cost a little less but likely be obvious. The only real problem with doing paint and body in California is the guys there are less versed in rust repair and metal work compared to other locations.
If the car is half as nice as the pictures you posted, I wouldn't do a thing to it except enjoy it and freshen up the wear items and maybe fix worn interior pieces like seats. I still have my "first" Lemans (in spirit after a deer wrecked it) from 1999 and I'm super emotionally invested. I sent it to a "quality" shop who disassembled it and painted it and made it look great... but they went out of business 3/4 of the way through reassembly and lost half the unique parts and burnt the tranny in it. I shouldn't have sent it anywhere and should have just enjoyed it. As it is I am roughly $19k lighter in the wallet and finally drove the car for the first time in 7 years last Thursday and I still have a car with no mirrors, wipers, seat belts, or interior\exterior trim pieces and a burnt tranny. I guess I'm just saying: be careful. You're invested in this car and love it, but if it were me I'd just drive it and enjoy it. If you want a super nice car, get a project beater you aren't that invested in and do that instead while enjoying having the sentimental car in the garage next to it to drive when the resto gets you down (and it will). |
Full restoration anywhere is 40Kish. Some are more. Some are less as with anything . Maybe cheaper in the heartland, more in the city. Sometimes you get what you pay for... sometimes you find a good deal. That's life. Also consider that GTO parts are more expensive than some others. Especially if you want original anything!
And what about the engine... you can spend 10K easy on a good rebuild. What do you do with anything... get 3 or 4 estimates. Then it's your car and your money. DO what YOU want. |
oh
and you wont be posing like that on your front bumper after a paint job ..... the chances of cracking the paint on the endura goes sky high often after paint jobs .... and the pressure of leaning on the top inner edge will often cause spider webbing in the paint .... Scott T |
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That's a problem I don't have . |
I should have looked at your photos before commenting. If that's your current condition, invest that cash in something with a high rate of return.
Very nice looking car as a "survivor". |
Nice looking car as it sits, I’d do whatever small repairs it needs and leave it be. If the interior is shabby then freshen it up, but seriously shine up the paint in a way that doesn’t remove excess material and enjoy it.
Nice survivor, it has value as a 50+ year old car that’s not seriously deteriorated and not in need of a full restoration. |
X20 leave it as is and drive the hell out of it. Car looks great, maybe put some money into the drivetrain if you're into that. Is that a Warwick Blue car?
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It's your car, only you know what you want. However, a couple things to think about. First, if you spend that much on high level body and paint work, chances are that you'll want to improve other areas as well...interior, engine bay, etc. Before you know it, you're another 10-15k into it. Second, the deeper you get into it, the longer the car will be down. You might be able to find someone to take on the project as a side job, which could be a lot cheaper. But this approach often extends down time and increases the chances that the car doesn't get finished. I have low risk tolerance, so I would gladly pay more for a shop with a good reputation for finishing projects on time and within a set budget.
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https://pics.imcdb.org/0is6/gto015742.9476.jpg Movie got funnier every time I watched it. |
Luiz, can you post some pictures of the flaws the car has? Looks like a dang nice car already in the pics you posted. I know overall pictures can be deceiving. Just curious what kind of work it needs. Cost is most genarically speaking a combination of where its at now & what level you want to bring it to. Most shops that completely disassemble & restore can run 50K & up. Repaints without disassembling too much maybe 20-30K. But heck, if the car means that much to you you look at the money we spend on new vehicles today & you loose 20% of that the first year.
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Now, we've gotten into the topic of a 'full restoration'... The original post stated
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Just going by the pictures posted, the most I'd do is find a GOOD paint shop and just have them touch up the paint. Common back in the day, but I don't know what kind of paint is on the car, how hard it would be to match etc.
If that is original paint ... I wouldn't touch it. I'd consider that outstanding original paint. |
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If it's as original as it appears .... I would do nothing but drive it and replace the normal wear parts with the closest to OEM or NOS I could find.
I can almost smell the original from the photos :) |
Thanks everyone for your opinions, most of which I have been tossing around in my head for the last 20 years of the 35 years I have owned it. It has been my Ship of Theseus problem which is one reason I started this thread so I could get help thinking of this in a way I wouldn't regret. The patina vs as new has been a huge struggle for me to decide when it comes to the aesthetic parts. The car isn't bad and there is alot of history in all those dings and scratches. Each one recalls memories of my teenage years when I made them!
So I have been slowly doing a resto-mod on the mechanical parts so it is safe, reliable, and more fun to drive. Already sank $20k into engine rebuild, new transmission, new rims/tires and new suspension system plus a few other minor mechanical items. Drives great now! And ya, I have half-a-dozen other things I could do instead of spending $45K in body and paint work. After all, the body is not "that bad" as the pictures show. And I can drive it without worrying about every pebble and nick that I accumulate over time! So during this down-time, I decided to tear out the interior and restore it myself. Which has given me a bitter-sweet feeling of removing history (I lost my virginity in that back seat!) So I think I am going to keep the old interior parts in boxes so there is a physical preservation to my memories. And put off the question on what to do with the exterior. Perhaps once the interior looks as new, then it will make the exterior crave a quality resto job. |
I would consider shipping out of state to a shop with a good reputation. Those prices seem way out of hand unless you are talking frame off resto. I had a special edition Trans Am painted about 8 years ago for 5 grand and it was a very nice paint job car had no rust issues just older faded paint.
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Having done this for over 40 years like many people here, I have some suggestions:
1. Remove EVERYTHING from the outside and inside of the car yourself. Bag and tag and take pics of everything. You will save $15K doing this yourself, and YOU get to know your car intimately after having owned it all these years. 2. Have you ever seen FantomWorks on TV? If so, you know that no matter what you THINK, once you get into it, you will actually KNOW what you have and what you need. 3. What is your plan for the engine compartment and trunk? If you have to remove the engine, etc., to redo the compartment, that is a whole ‘nother job…requires lots of expertise and equipment and then replacement of stuff that will look bad against a repainted firewall or inner fender, etc. This is a topic all unto itself… 4. Purchase all the parts you might need from AMES or wherever—used parts for things that are not reproduced, etc. AMES has pretty much everything, but I don’t know your specific car, so… 5. STRIP the body yourself. Buy some aircraft stripper—it ain’t cheap but will save you thousands in labor costs. ALSO, you now know what is wrong and right with the metal. Be sure to use the protective gear. This takes a while, but is well worth your time, and once again, you are doing the work yourself, so it means more. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxpbQOombv4 6. I suggest this over media blasting as that can deform the metal. HOWEVER, if you have a good blaster in the area who uses the right product and knows what they are doing, you can check that out as well. It is cheaper and faster, but MESSY! You will be vacuuming out media for days... 7. These two things will take you a couple of weeks of work—gotta stay home anyway, right?—and you will actually know what is what. 8. Either tow the car to the body shop or have him come out to see what you have once everyone can actually SEE the metal. An estimate then is much more accurate than what you are doing now. 9. Paint is hella expensive today—plan on at least $2-$3K for materials, including sandpaper, etc. (a pint of paint for my C2 recently was $100.00!) If you are handy, you can do some prelim sanding yourself, but if not, let the experts do it. 10. Once you have a bare car, let the experts take over. At that point, you should be looking at a $15,000 to $20,000 job for an AMAZING paint job if the shop is any good. 11. This assumes you have checked out at least 5 cars they have done at least 3-5 years ago. Fresh paint only looks good if the prep is right and the application is correct. 12. Then, decide what you want. Epoxy primers, sealers, two-stage, water-based (CA—different rules, I would guess) etc. based on what the shop thinks is best and what they are comfortable doing. 13. Get a few estimates, go to car shows and ask who painted the best cars there, etc. LOTS of homework is worth it. 14. Set a time with the shop—no 5-year paint jobs, etc. How many times have you heard about “car was there for 5 years, I paid $50,000, and it is a mess” stories? Pay more, get a good shop. Period. No one does this work cheaply that does it correctly with excellent results. There are NO SHORTCUTS in this. 15. Be ready to replace all the stuff you removed/purchased yourself. Possibly you want the shop to apply emblems, etc., to make sure you don’t mess anything up, but if you are careful, you can do it all yourself. I have many times, and it is kind of fun (after the banged knuckles cursing, of course.) Cheers! |
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Check out a vinyl wrap company, they do amazing work now a days and although you can't get every color, there are lots of great options. It costs a few grand to have a company do a professional job but it looks 95% as good and holds up well. Vinyl wrap has come a long way in the last few years, it can look like normal paint, not just matte or metallic gold.
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There are very few shops in So cal that will touch a older car as their bread and butter is insurance work.I have a pontiac friend that owns 3 body shops and he only does his own cars,BUT the body shop biz sucks right now so maybe check around to for a non resto shop.Also remember they usually lie on how long it will take.You can read tons of threads on all the car sites about body shop hell.I had one in the paint for a year!Another friend had one for 2 years.Be very carefull.Tom
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The price that you were quoted seems like a cosmetic restoration, body/paint, interior and trim. If you were to have a complete restoration I would expect 50k plus.
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