My new project 1980 Turbo T/A
 

Hi all... new to this forum. I recently bought a 80 Turbo Trans AM WS6 and was looking for your thoughts on direction. The car is original Silver with a red cloth interior. It's in very original condition, but the motor is shot and IMO not worth reviving just to state it's numbers matching.

Here's my thoughts...

1) Only needs one spot of body work on the Driver's side quarter. I'm going to pay to have that fixed and repainted.

2) Pull the engine and trans and put them on a stand so it retains its numbers matching drive train. Install a crate 350 with a rebuilt transmission. The car should run fine and the crate engines can be had in 350HP long blocks for $3200.

3) Either leave it like it is and get it running, or put some 17 inch honeycombs on it and paint it either green or 80 Maroon.

Thoughts?

https://i.imgur.com/j9sUvDw.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/yMUJQrt.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RyxqhMh.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/SqpZG9z.jpg

My thoughts are cover that crappy Edelbrock air cleaner to keep the rain out. :eek:

I'm working on it. The engine in my 75 has 72cc D-port Edelbrock heads and a Performer RPM through RAIII exhaust. The cam is one Butler recommended. I told them the parts I was using and I wanted a quick car, but didn't need to shave off a 1/10 in the quarter. It runs great, but the Ram Air shaker I have for it won't fit. The fuel lines need to be moved. I've already cut the modified Performer RPM base plate from Butler... just need some time. Until then a trash bag under a car cover keeps the rain out. BTW... roller tip rockers fit under the stock chrome covers using two gaskets.

https://i.imgur.com/AxUprF9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/i4Lqy3Y.jpg

nice looking bird. personally i would keep/rebuild the original turbo engine... especially over a 350 chevy!! why is the motor "shot?" the 301t isnt the most loved engine but can be made to run pretty decent with not much work. $3200 will build a 400 pontiac to have just as much power as the crate chevy & will be a much easier install.

as for paint, do it the color you like but IMO, silver on red is one of the best looking color combos for these cars... & green will NOT look good with red interior. dont get too crazy on the color combo, green on red will not have much resale value come time to sell it.

& roller tip rockers fit under stock valve covers with a single stock gasket. & in the future please resize your pics to smaller so they can be viewed better, those are way too big for forum use.

Thanks for the input. I'll disagree with you on the cost to build a Pontiac engine. Everything, and I mean everything costs 2X what a Chevy engine costs. Do you still need a Pontiac engine... yes. The exact engine I wanted in the 75 is there and running beautifully, but I paid for it. The onlu original parts on it are the block, rods and crank... everything else is new. Do I advocate a Chevy?... No. Do I poo-poo the idea... no, as it's cost effective.

I'll disagree on the 301 too. It's a dog engine and everyone knows that. It was the end of an era and the turbo 301 is not a good engine. Replacing it with a 350HP 350 Chevy (also GM BTW) with a warranty is a reasonable compromise IMHO. I know the haters will hate, but let's get real here. What is the most bang for buck?

What I'll most probably do is install the crate engine and leave it as is. If the next owner wants to revive a putrid 301 that's number's matching then they have the choice. They won't... why would you if the car runs well?

would have to disagree with you on the cost to build a mild street pontiac & most others on here who have done it probably would too.
yes parts are cheaper but machine work is machine work & costs the same for most motors.
i didnt mean aluminum heads & stroker kits or custom pistons etc, just a good mild street engine with common parts.
you can build a 350 hp pontiac 400 with stock crank & even rods at that power level but the RPM forged rods arent much more than rebuilding stock rods...
a good cam selected with a very easy to reach 9-9.5:1 comp & you're easily at that HP with more TQ than a SBC. & the stock mounts, fuel lines & wires hook right up.

im aware there are a lot of haters on the 301 & 301t, but have you ever owned one that ran right?
they were within 10 HP of a 78-79 W72 400 rated at 220hp, the 400 had more tq & that meant faster off the line or seat of pants feel, but at a 30-40+mph roll they will hang right with the 400s.
i own an 81 301t & its 99% stock, runs 14.8 in the 1/4 not full throttle on hard old street tires, not "fast" by any means but almost a second faster than a stock W72 400 times.
& there are lots of guys running them into the 13's & a few in the mid 12's using stock heads, turbo, carb etc in a NHRA class. so they arent as bad as the rep they got over the years.
keeping the 301 was just a suggestion mainly for resale value depending on what you plan to do with the car. if youre keeping it for awhile, do what you want to it, if it will get sold, staying pontiac will most likely pull more money.
bang for the buck? pontiac all the way! ;)

just my thoughts.

You are categorically wrong on multiple assertions in this reply. Here's is a Chevy engine from Jegs shipped at <$3200.

https://www.jegs.com/i/ATK-Engines/0...791+4294829509


If you want to back up your stand that you "can" rebuild a Pontiac for less than a Chevy, please provide an example compared to the one posted.

The 301 is a dog engine. If you want to tweak it to eek out a little more horsepower, you will still wind up with way less than 350HP, and it will cost you a ton to do that; not to mention the difficulty in dealing with the turbo...
which is prolly bad and needs a rebuild.

The 1980 Camaro had a Chevy engine. This isn't a GTO that never had a Chevy engine. That means the parts you buy for it are plug and play.

In this day an age one must factor in all the variables in order to make a sound decision. IMHO, the Chevy 350 in this car is the only real viable option. If you disagree, please explain the error of my plan.

https://cdn.kapwing.com/final_5ce487...b67_714465.jpg

Don't forget to change all of your accessory brackets and trans....but sounds like you got it all figured out.

not trying to argue about it, i didnt say for less, i said you could build a 350hp 400 long block for $3200.
it is a fact that you can build a 350hp pontiac 400/455 with common parts that arent that expensive, i've done it & there are plenty of examples on here to back it up.

its obvious you dont like the 301t & thats fine... i never implied it was a high hp race motor. but when running right they are not too bad for what they had to work with.
also never said make the 301 350hp or compared it to the crate sbc, was just a "thought" on keeping it depending on what the plans were for the car...

& by things hooking up easy i meant you dont need to change or reroute factory fuel lines, change motor mount locations or modify wire harness etc.
sorry for mentioning a few things when you asked for thoughts... sounds like you got it all figured out with the chevy. :rolleyes:

This is why I bought my 81 turbo, all original. Mostly everyone that buys these cars chucks the engine , which will be good for the guys that keep them they way Pontiac made them . It will never be a fast muscle car but a great car that the Pontiac guys tried to make a great effort and engineering to keep the Pontatic V 8 Alive . I have had over the last 40 years cars that had 500 to 600 hp for me those days are over . But I am sure if you keep it silver with the red interior it will a great looking car , good luck

Ok, maybe you can rebuild a P400 for $3200.00, but unless he has a P400 laying around he has to buy that too.

can buy a P400 block/crank/heads for $250-500... doesnt change the fact you can build a 350hp 400 for 3200 or less.

My 81 T the guy had started taking the 301 motor apart and was going to do a 455 swap but not all the parts for that. Put a stock style 400 together in it for my kids to drive to high school with 6X-4s I found at a wrecking yards I pocket ported and threw a vale job on.. Getting the interior back in shape on it cost more than the motor to build. Heck last weekend put fresh gas in it and fired it up again.

The 301T has head studs and supposedly an Ultradyne cam in it Was running a Holley 3310 on it when it was running but I never saw it run.

Just want to clarify that I have two extra Pontiac engines (both 400's) a 73 block/crank only and a full short block out of a 75 big car. I also have the RAIII intake and multiple sets of rebuilt 400 RAIII heads (#48, #62). If I start with what I have, it's still going to cost more than buying a 350 Long block rebuilt at 350HP. I'm not knocking a Pontiac engine... I love them. I have 2 69 350HO convertibles and one has an original 4-speed engine (not running) and the other (running) has a 68 Catalina 400 rebuilt and it runs awesome. The bottom line is that, IMO, this particular car would be better off with the Chevy 350 for $3200 shipped. It would have a Chevy $1200 rebuilt transmission and engine with a warranty when I go to sell it. I get Pontiac love... I bleed Pontiac blue, but in this case, logic has to set it up so I don't lose money on it. It's a cool car because it handles and 1980 sucks for performance. I'll correct one wrong and right the other.

I vote keep the silver color!!!

I'm in. All I'll do is make it run well and leave the rest of it as is. I'ts very unique.

Putting a crate motor with a warranty is almost a no brainer imo.
For all the naysayers, I had my 400 built, lots of extra HP, for $3200. I just got a quote from the same guy to do the 400 for my 79, same price.

I will agree that if you have an engine that the rebuild cost can be done (with connections) for about the same as a crate long blocks. But, and this is a big one, when my mechanic rebuilt my engine in the 75 T/A, I gave him and original pile of parts. When he started going through them and pointing why I need a new timing cover, etc., I bought it. He didn't make money on the parts. I bought them (mostly from Butler) and took them over. Here's a list of what I replaced on the internals:

oil pan
timing cover
harmonic balancer
valley pan
windage tray
pulleys
motor mounts

When you add it all up, if you have 3 timing covers and make one work, you do that, but when you pay for all this stuff, it's not cheap. I love my Pontiac engines, but when I know I also want a rebuilt 400 transmission and it's only $1200 for a Chevy with a warranty, ok... I get to drive the car. When the hood isn't up, it's still a hot rod. When the hood is up, at least it's not a 301.

Thanks for the input... I won't change the outside other than get the dent painted, and I'll clean the interior and add a stereo. Should be a cool car when I'm done. What I didn't realize until now, is that this Trans Am is about the lowest flash T/A I can imagine. It only says T/A on the deck lid and on the fenders, no bird and a neutral color. Whoever ordered it didn't want to be noticed.

I'd keep it Pontiac V8, the supposedly cheaper cost of 350 horse chevy 350 build doesn't hold water. When you're done, what do you have? Another no one wants it bread & butter Chevy 350 in a 2nd Gen Bird, in other words, you just shot off a couple toes.

In a traditional Pontiac V8 swap, the 301 Turbo engine's PS pump can be used in a swap, so can the 301 Turbo's crank pulleys, you'll need two common (& cheap) small stamped steel '71+ PS brackets, either a '71-74 Pntiac v8 front alt mtg plate (or a '75-79 version), & a 481040 wp pulley. $50-60 outlay plus ship by most longtime used parts vendors.

IMO, by 1980 the hood bird had about run its coarse. Wild graphics were a product of the '70's. I remember when I got my '82 firebird I got a lot of comments like 'does it have the silly bird on the hood?' In retrospect nothing says trans am to me now like that massive decal of a fire breathing pheonix!

I'm just going to disagree with you here. If this was a 73 T/A, I would agree. Pumping life into an exhausted 301 can be done, but poker aint free. I'll give the next owner the option of bringing it back to its glory days with the original drive train on an engine stand.

I realize I'm slamming the 80 turbo 301 hard, but it's the truth. If you have an 80 low mileage turbo and it runs great, then super duper. It is what is was back in 1980... a lot of people like that, including me. It's the best they could do back then, but things have changed. My point is that this car, will be a better ROI if I install a Chevy crate engine. ...we'll see.

I agree. The red 75 gets me thumbs up every time I drive it. People take pics of it at stoplights. But this car is a plain Jane... by design. I like that about it.

So the tables have turned... seems like this car had a bird on the hood originally and the paint is not original?... hmmm...

https://i.imgur.com/Qxmamsp.jpg

A lot of things happen to a car over 40 yrs time. I think you are right on with your assesment of a motor swap. You are spot on that in 1980 that motor was the best GM could come up with. I think I read that it was supposed to be the 'new' motor for the 3rd gen cars. If so, theres likely a good reason the 3rd gens went a diff. direction. In 1980 it was more than a potent motor, I would guess the only other car that compared would have been a vette. But by todays standards it just doesnt compare.

@thews;
Come on, you had to know you were going to get some static for coming to a Pontiac enthusiast board, to talk about a Pontiac powered T/A, that you want to swap to a chevy.

In the end, it's your car, so do what you want.

You should know that I agree with 78w72.

The much maligned 301/301T is actually a much better engine than most would lead you to believe - and if you decide you need to sell the car at a later date, odds are you will get a much better return on your money if you leave it original, or at least Pontiac powered;
Chevy boys will like the engine, but whine about the model;
Pontiac boys will like the car, but whine about the drivetrain.

"ol Pinion head makes some good budget minded points too.

And please quick hot linking gigantor pictures - they make threads harder to read than they need be.

We'll agree to disagree. Let me take a wild guess that you own a 301 car. There's nothing wrong with that, and if this engine ran I would make it run well. We can beat the dead horse until it's nothing, but the 301 was a product of 1980 and they did what they could at Pontiac Engineering. Technology has advanced and it's simply not cost effective to rebuild this engine unless you have an uber rare #'s matching car. Chevy guys will buy Camaros. Pontiac guys will buy Pontiacs. I've owned many Camaros and Firebirds/GTO's and I love me some Pontiacs. In this case specifically, when I push the gas pedal and get 350HP, that's all I care about. I really don't subscribe to the #'s matching stuff unless the car's rarity warrants it.

When did you become the boss of me? Stop telling me what to do. I like big pictures because you can see detail. Small grainy pics don't show enough. Are you the boss of me? Just curious, because I wasn't in that meeting.

Bought this for the car today. May not be "correct", but correct enough for me. The car has a blank hole, but the wiring is intact. This came out of an 81 Corvette. Restored by an old timey Delco radio tech... nothing beats experience when it comes to stuff like this. I have a Nakamichi tape deck in my hoard of things, so this should be fun. Check out the Tektronix old school Oscope behind it... money. FYI I paid $300 for it. Love the red LED's.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/6dMAA...q3/s-l1600.jpg

I've got a heat shield that mounts under the hood in great shape if you need one. $40 + freight.

Cool radio. And I like your pics :D

Get PHS to check for Invoice #2 on your car.
This Invoice has it being used as a Fleet Company Car for the GM Parts Division.

A lot of times - Cars with this program were usually ordered by a department head for their 3 month/3,000 mile use - and the car type/color/equipment selected by a lesser tenured co-worker who wanted one at deep discount when it was turned in.
aka Big Favor
That is just 1 scenario.

The senior staff member may have wanted himself and bought it afterwards.
Or he may have just driven it and then let it go into Zone Inventory available for any employee or dealer to purchase.

Luckily it doesn't seem to have stayed in Michigan for very long.

What is the build date on the cowl tag ?

Not everyone can build their own engines.
The labor for that can really drive up the cost of doing one, on top of machining costs.
So i figure that is part of your balance sheet on the 350 Chevy

Most guys are probably thinking 400/455 swap as opposed to 301 Revival.

Len Williams sells Pontiac Longblocks outright for less than the 350 crate engine, i think.
A 400/455 Pontiac engine will hold more value and desirability in the car , if it needs to sell later on.
You could re-use the existing transmission and a lot of other stuff too.
Exhaust, brackets, pulleys, lines, accessory hoses, etc...

Chevy swaps can run into a lot of changes

Update on this car. I found a rebuilt carb for $100 (non-turbo) and bought it thinking it would bolt in... it won't. I took the original carb and rebuilt it using a lot of the parts off the rebuilt carb. Changed the plugs, distributor cap, wires and PVC. Got it all back together today and it fired up blowing white smoke, but it does run. Pretty excited about get it running like it is. The car only has 91K on it, so I was wrong to just assume the engine was shot.

glad you got it running. might be able to work some bugs out of it & store it in good running condition while you wait for the chevy engine....

FYI on that radio, it was not original to a vette, but might have been in a vette... the red LED radios were specific to 79 10th anniv & 80-81 pace cars. vettes & others cars of the era had yellow led's. that radio is from a 1981 pace car. nice radio & worth quite a bit... but keep in mind these old radios are designed for 10ohm speakers only, you cant hook them up to modern 4ohm speakers & expect them to live very long, so if you plan to use that radio, its a good idea to be sure you have 10ohm speakers... & factory 10ohm speakers sound like crap! i'd go with that nakamichi deck & modern speakers if you want decent sound.

Thanks. There is no radio number sticker on it. In my collection of Pontiac stuff I have two old NOS 8 tracks with green LED's. They are aftermarket units that supposedly fit into a second GEN Firebird. The cool thing about green LED's is that they were around for a very short time (just like 8 tracks) before LCD's came out.

Sorry if you mentioned it previously, but that stereo looks like a casette, not 8track. I have an 8track TATA radio and it looks very similar but is different. There is no eject (not needed with 8tr) and no treble bass adjustment. Just a curiosity but do you know if the cassette radio was available for the TATA?

not sure if youre asking me or thews, but as far as i know, the TATA red led radio was 8 track, the cassette were available for 80/81 pace cars.

Yes, It was a question. I have not see a TATA with a cassette, and after seeing this particular radio I wondered. Thanks for the answer.