Anyone run pro Systems carbs
 

Upgrading to a dominator carb (alcohol) and have been checking around w various builders. Pro systems has best price and appears to have good reviews but they recommend their vacuum fuel regulator for electric fuel pumps.
My old carb (975cfm 4150) was built by Rupert and I liked it (Used standard pressure reg w no vacuum line to carb). I called Rupert and his price for a rebuilt old gen hp dominator he had lying around was only few hundred cheaper than billet APD new carb.
Just looking for any feedback on racers using pro systems set up.
Thanks

Pro Systems made me a 1300cfm dominator. Ran great. Never a problem. And if you have a question, Patrick usually responds within a day.
I recently bought a used PS 1050 dominator with billet metering blocks. Hope to be trying it out soon.

Pro Systems buys the same Holley Components, for example: Shaker455 and a few other carb rebuilders/tuners. I have inspected their calibrations (when people sent me their carbs for another opinion) and found that their carbs were similar to quite a few other Carb builders stuff. Braswell, Rupert, Sean Murphy, etc.

If you are concerned about price then PRO Systems surely fits into your requirements.

They buy parts from the same people I have purchased parts from for the last 20 years.

Tom V.

Boosted carbs I like C&S, then CSU for their Blow Thru Carbs.

I understand the folks at Pro Systems are Pontiac people. Know them very well.

Thanks for replies
Figured best info would be from people who have actually raced them

I bought a Used billet apd on shakers advice actually. Why mess around. I haven’t run it yet. It will keep till next year

I never heard that Patrick is a Pontiac fan but he does build one damn nice carb.

He is also the only one I know of that gives you his personal cell number in case you have an issue any time, anywhere and he answers it.

If you want a race opinion then talk to Jim Hand. It was not a Dominator Carb, (it was a HP 1000) and with
that carb he ran his best time ever in his wagon years ago.
He had me look it over and I gave him the info on what was done to the carb. That is the only Pontiac
"Pro Systems" carb I have been involved with. Lots of other people' Race Carb Dominators though.
Think I have done about 500 for people back in the days when Holley did their Track rebuilds for free for the racers. Send Jim Hand or Tom Hand a note if you want.

Tom V.

Since I used to build them for the racers I would say my comments are appropriate here in the race section.
Doubt if many are anywhere close to that number.

Thanks guys, I think I’ll call pro systems this week and talk a little more with them. I’d like to ask a few more questions about their fuel regulator they say you need to use if running an electric pump

I race a pro systems dominator,no issues at all..great carb. Patrick also helped me with some tuneing for the street. 535 pump gas best pass to date 10.06 &134..3750#
Hope this helps

Tom v no issues w your comments, all input appreciated

Mine of course I have 2 of them!



GTO George

I know some guys running alcohol May Race Carbs. They run real consistent.

I hear he is a fan from a good source. Its my understanding the high end Pontiac cabs have extra fuel in the mid range. I have a Dale Cubic 1400cfm carb and talked to Dale about it. He also told me Pontiacs take a higher cfm carb due to their long strokes. Lot of "suck" to them.
I am dealing with Performance Carb and they tell me a 1050 will run better, ET better than a 1150 Vizards program tells me to run. I am sending my 1050 with their billet metering plates that turn a 3 circuit into a 2 circuit back to get calibrated and their annular billet boosters installed with double the holes the Holley ones have. Cost about 375$ to have it done. And they told me they can make sure their is extra fuel in the mid range. Will take calls at the dyno/track for tuning advice.
I hear the billet head/block Visner guys are Pontiac fellows too. Its why they make the parts. Have to love the brand, not much demand for a Pontiac billet block. Make a lot more money building parts for other brands.

What is considered mid range?
On my engine i've had to lean out the intermediate circuit. Both cubic carbs, every engine is different though.

I tried 2 different custom built Pro System carbs, both slowed me down this was in the late 90's early 2000's.Back to back test with a Barry Grant Race Demon and a Holley HP. BG was always faster. Patrick had a Trans Am drag car at one time many years back.

I remember that conversation at Norwalk, years ago Mike, When you told me that the Pro Systems carb was slower than the BG or the Holley you had.

The BG carb you got was a good one. When Cliff Dynoed his 4781 Holley carb and KRE told him do not touch it, it is perfect, I was glad that he had a Holley carb that was comparable to his Rochester Q-jet.

Tom V.

So what are your specs and which formula or program of David's (Vizard) are you using? If I had that information earlier this morning, I could have ask David when I was talking with him.

Stan

I called him asking if the carb I have would work for a dyno test on the 461. He said there was a small chance but it would fall on its face at part throttle.
Asked about Pontiacs needing more fuel, used the term mid range and he confirmed it. Also wanted to know why Pontiacs can take so much carb and he said long stroke. The discussion never got technical just wanted to know if trying the 1400 carb was crazy or not.

Engine is the basic specs I gave you awhile back but different cam. .440 lobe, .264.274, 112.
Only thing I know about the dyno program is it is the 800$ version and you are supposed to be a engine builder to get it.
Since I bracket race the 1150 carb is not needed vs the 1050. I should dip into the 9s as is.
Since I am a Native Tribal member they are giving us 1250$ for Covid relief. I could buy the carb but a 650,750, 850, 1050 and 1400 is enough. Need to thin out my carb and intake collection as it is. I sold my NW intake but want another one, I might have a intake fetish/problem. Is there a 12 step program LOL ?

BTW, my carb guy at Performance Cab tells me wet flow on a 1050 is 1121 cfm and a 1150 has 1176cfm wet flow so its not as big a difference as you think. Its one of ghe reasons he tells me the 1050 will ET better with a heavy car vs a little more power on the dyno with 1150. Smaller bores, more velocity get the pig moving.

I have tried a number of times to get you to tell me who has this program or what this program is called so I can get a better idea of what is being used. For the past few years David has give to the people who attend his seminars his TMC (Torque Master Cams) Program which he also does sell. I did the computer programming of TMC (Torque Master Cams) for David.

Stan

Years ago I bought a brand new standard 2 circuit 1050 dominator from summit and did basic tuning on it for best ETs. Couple of years later I bought a pro systems new from them set up for my combo. Ran exact same numbers at the track. Tried tuning it but it didnt make any difference. The only difference was the PS carb idled a little cleaner/smoother.

Stan, it does not really matter to me what the program is called. Only thing I care about is the cam recommendation and the estimated horsepower. And that my friend took the time out of his day to do all the inputs. This cam will work with my converter, tires and gears as it. Get it all done under 6700RPM.
If I can make the 720 or so horsepower in a 6500RPM 461 I think it will be an accomplishment. Getting it done on pump gas, no high RPM and without having a bunch of head work with all the expensive offset rockers and lifters would be something.

All I do know is, tell Patrick exactly what your engine's specs are, what tranny, what gear and full weight and he will build you the carb you NEED. Tell Patrick what you WANT and you'll get what you get. Most everybody I know or have talked to said that they bolted their Pro-System carb on and the only thing they needed to do was adjust the idle.

I bolted my Pro-System carb on, adjusted the idle, made several passes, pulled out the NGK's and not only did they look good..... They were perfect! Can't thank Patrick enough as it would have taken me 1/2 the season of jerking around to achieve the same results.

Yes it clearly matters to me as the released version TMC which is David's present software only works for SBC and SBF. There is a beta version which has Pontiac and to the best of my knowledge only 4 people in the world have a copy of it.

Stan

I was going to say the same thing about TM. I've heard of Vizard's Cos-Cam and Cam Master, to my knowledge they were never available for purchase.

An image capture of this mystery program would be very interesting..

Why would it matter to you ? Its a program my friend paid 800$ for and you can get updates for 150$. So once you buy it for 800$ you have the ability to keep it the latest and greatest down the line if you chose.
Is "your" software out of date or something ? Only thing that matters is my buddy has it and was able to talk Vizard into letting him purchase it. Not anyone can buy it.
I am not going to pry and ask for screen shots or anything like it. Just happy he is kind enough to let me use it.

My point is I don't know what software you are talking about. I got to David at a bad time today. He and his wife were traveling in their car. I will see if I can talk to him tomorrow and found out what this program is. The only name of someone you have talked about that I know and who might have some of David's software would be Mike L.

Stan

Sorry to jump in here, but why is this important? And im not defending anyone I just dont see the relevance of what program he is or is not using. Thanks.

Scott,
Just finding to find out what he used. As I would ask David Vizard about it.

Stan

Ok. Just wondering. I didnt see what difference it made. Whats the point of calling Dave V? To prove his formulas wrong or to check to see if Dragn is actually using them?

Scott,
Why would I think David's formula is wrong? How would David even know who Dragncar is? I wanted to talk to David to see if he ever had software that does what Dragncar says he is doing or maybe the software Dragncar is using was not done by David.

If you call Comp Cams give them your specs and they recommend a cam and then you call Lunati give them your specs and they recommend a cam. The 2 cams are not the same. Who is wrong, who is right? Just like with the carb recommendations you would need to dyno or race them to know.

Stan

Dont know how David would know Dragn. But he names drops all the time.

Lol.

Get you panties un bunched Stan. This is a thread about Pro Systems. You are fishing and I will not let you dig. Its your problem, not mine.
Don't know David V, know someone who knows him and thats it. Not giving it up either.

Actually because of your posting history :jaw: I am just doing some fact checking. :D

Stan

I think you are just mad that you do not have the latest and greatest software and do not know how to handle it. Like it must be some sort of mistake if Stan Weiss does not have the best dyno simulator.
You are making a federal case about me having a friend punch in my numbers with a 1050 then a 1150. Big deal, get a life.
I just thought it was interesting that one guy says 1050 will ET better but a 1150 will make more power.
Just keyboard racing man. The real racing will start when I get off my lazy @ss and put this thing together. Working six 10 hour days right now so I have to force myself.

LMAO.. Stan is developing the newest for Vizard.

:popcorn:

During the early 90’s David Vizard's Cam Master program was conceived and began to take shape. David and Denny Wyckoff at Motor Machine & Supply in Tucson developed the program, a comprehensive computer program that offered precise cam selection. It was a empirical program based on over 50,000 individual engine dyno pulls on various engine combinations. Written up in National Dragster and other magazines. Cam Master was not duration-driven but overlap-driven. The event timing of the cam, dictated by the duration of the intake and exhaust, together with the Lobe Center Angle (David used that term for lobe separation angle) and the advance/retard position in the engine. Once the overlap to suit a given application is decided, everything else falls into place. It was Denny Wyckoff that ran the program for the public thru his shop. Since then David has brought out different programs.


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Patrick James at Pro Systems method of choosing a carb size is a bit different. Posted before and again here for interest and noted the information provided does not represent any endorsement of the method..............



Choosing A Carb Size

One of the most asked questions we receive at PRO-SYSTEMS is, how big will my carburetor be, how much will it flow? Most customers are expecting to hear big numbers. They want to hear that their 4150 will flow 1150 cfm or that their 2 inch throttle blade Dominator will flow 1400. Unfortunately, that’s not going to happen. In all the designs I’ve flowed, designed, calibrated and tested, it’s just plain physically impossible. Builders will give out dry numbers (meaning cfm ratings without the disturbance of the fuel cone) but these numbers are not what the engine actually sees and are for reference only. Some builders still use the inflated cfm creating 28 inch rating used by an aftermarket manufacturer. Enough has been said on that subject.

But really cfm is not the main level of importance. Fuel shear, atomization properties and fuel curve are your main areas of concern.

To size a carb for the application, you’re looking to achieve minimal restriction at the finish-line yet have enough signal at launch as to be sure that the booster is atomizing the fuel and supplying the proper air to fuel ratio.

Horsepower equals air flow (of course). Launch rpm/trap rpm equals a reference of the range of the air flow.

If the carb is too big or signal/curve is too poor at the launch rpms created airflow, the fuel does not properly atomize and plates out (turns back to raw fuel) on the intake. Losses of 10-12 percent of available torque at launch can easily be recognized without a lean cutout or backfire. Then as rpms increase, the plated fuel is picked up and alters the air to fuel ratio down-track as it is cleaned out of the intake. More loss of power. So you jet it down to compensate for the plated fuel being picked up and the launch gets even worse. See the dilemma.

The wider the range of rpm you’re going to subject the design to, the more you need to look at the range of airflow and available options.

I’m sure you remember this old formula:

CID x RPM x V.E. / 3456 = CFM

Well that formula is still being quoted by magazines and companies etc…but times have changed and carburetors are operating on almost immeasurable amounts of vacuum. 10 years ago a carburetor would require 10 inches of water to pull signal and shear fuel. Now they can can pull and shear fuel at only 3. Remember 20.4 inches of water (wet) is the cfm rating guide with reputable designers so we aren’t looking to match cfm requirements with cfm ratings.

20.4 = 1.5 hg.

You can see that going from 10 inches of water as a requirement at launch to only 3 inches as a requirement really allows a serious increase in cfm size. This removal of restriction really pays off in cylinder head flow numbers and hp of course. Imagine altering this upstream restrictor when flowing your heads.

Because, most of you have specific application designs, a custom shop/unit is typically the plan.

In the future, use this calculation as a general rule on a modified carburetor:

CID x RPM x V.E. / 2820 = CFM
350 x 6600 x .9 / 2820 = 737 CFM

Now you’ll be a little closer.

A .9 Volumetric Efficiency (V.E.) number represents a pretty good combination and a 1.1 V.E. number represents an all out assault on the engine blocks stress handling capabilities.

Remember, if we have a heavy vehicle and a two speed we will require a slightly smaller carburetor, than a light vehicle and a stick. Also, if we have a booster/emulsion/air bleed configuration designed to operate and shear fuel at lower rpms we can increase the cfm. An increase in cfm is usually a guaranteed increase in power, but it takes a design that’ll still pull and shear fuel at launch to pull that off. That’s when the builder starts altering the entry and exit angles of the booster, the emulsion layout, air bleed configuration/well diameter, etc. All in an effort to fan the fuel cone to increase impact, supply the proper air to fuel ratio throughout the rpm band and emulsify the mixture prior to decrease plating for the air speed being encountered. All those mods cost money and they’re not easy to do.

But return on investment is the deal when purchasing a carburetor. Oftentimes a customer is thinking of purchasing a this or a that, when the same money spent customizing his current model will yield more performance.

Remember, as we talked about earlier, the loss of torque we record at launch and the subsequent rate of acceleration you lose at the start of the race will be carried throughout the rest of the shifts. So a good leave (excellent fuel shear and proper air to fuel ratio at launch) is getting the reciprocating mass to carry this rate of acceleration to reduce E.T.’s. But if you have too much restriction at the finish-line, the mass will be slowed as a result and E.T.s will increase and none of us want that.


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Are any of you running alcohol using a fuel pressure reg w vacuum port ( vacuum reference) running to carb
Pro systems said I need one when using electric pump to help at idle and wot.
APD said do not need one and magnafuel said dead head reg w pro 500 pump would be fine

I have a magna fuel 500 pump and a aeromotive regulator, I only use return line from the regulator....the one at pump is removed and blocked off. I don’t use the reference/vacuum port on the regulator and it idles fine



GTO George

Thanks George
I never ran one w reupert 4150 carb and little bg280 pump but this seems to be what a lot recommend when using electric pumps - supposed to idle cleaner and allow pressure increase on top end.
Carb w fuel reg from pro systems around $200 cheaper than just carb from APD

I had my carbs rebuilt at APD $625 each, don’t know if there any good yet I still haven’t fired it up .....let alone take it down the track.


GTO George

Nope, My Aeromotive A2000 has a bypass at the pump that returns back to the tank. I send it to the front at 28 lbs, then its deadheaded with the large Holley regulator set at 8psi to the carb. Idles clean and has plenty at the big end. I believe in the KISS method if it works.