Tesla
 

Hey , guys
a couple of days ago I drove my bosses Performance Tesla 3.

Ever since that time I'm kinda wondering what the h#ll I'm doing with the GTO.
I've bought that car 20 years ago because of the performance possibilities it presents when building it yourself as a hobby.

Performance wise I'm no competition for a Tesla , it will leaf you burning rubber without any sound or drama.
And I have to say I really love that and respect the tecnology behind it.
Because they don't blow hugh amounts of unburned fuel into the air , leak oil everywhere and need very little maintenance.
Only thing is the batteries , don't know about the future implications of those .

It just kinda put a negative spin on my hobby.

Just venting.

You can’t beat the torque of a DC motor!
Not sure I could deal with no sound though.

There’s not many new cars out there, that don’t outperform an original GTO in every way. A few days ago, some guy was riding my butt in a ‘67 Chevelle like an idiot. I just left him behind on the turns and other street conditions. I was driving my Subaru Impreza.

You'll want to be far away from one if it gets into a good wreck...

"We do not have the battery technology to support an electric car safely and cost efficiently"... A retired engineer from Westinghouse who worked on the electric sky way system told this to me. He is a customer of mine..

I think it’s a completely different side of the car culture. Our Hellcat will blow the doors of of anything else o have bone stock- with cooled and heated seats. It doesn’t leave you smelling like exhaust and everything works. Style wise it does not compare to my GTO. Some people notice it- but nothing like the old car.

Well, if 0-60 performance is the only thing you care about, then you’re definitely driving the wrong car.

I drove one of the “super performance” Model S’s some time back and started a thread about it. I liked it more than I expected, but if I was the type of guy who would spend $150,000 on a car, I’d make a different choice- because that’s not the only thing I care about.

When I got my GTO I wanted to turn it into a nasty pro touring style beast that could blow the doors off most cars..
Now that I am little older I'm no longer interested in that but the big thing to me with these cars is.. a newer car will look dated in 5 to 10 years and tech and performance they will be dated while our cars will still be classics and still look good.. a tesla 3 will never be that.

In the end you truly want a fast performance car.. in my opinion just get a used 911..

There is nothing like the sound of an American V-8 muscle car.

My wife test drive a standard Model Y and 3 last weekend. She loved the performance but didnt love the rest of the car. I dont want to bash the brand because I admire what Tesla is doing and their innovative methods. But from one car guy to another.....there are other EV options that might peak your interest. They are very exciting to drive....and the motors do make noise. It does take skill to get the max performance from them as well. A good driver will learn the traction limits and be able to apply just the right amount of throttle to get maximum grip and acceleration without spinning the tires. Tires dont last long though because the very high torque at low speeds is hard on the compound. But quite fun still. A strong EV can be a driver's car just as much as any internal combustion engine car can.

I am going to purchase my 3rd EV next week. I shopped around and did try the Tesla models but they aren't for me. There is more to a car than just being quick. If straight line performance is all that mattered then I would be a Challenger or Cuda kind of guy. To me, "performance" is acceleration, braking, handling, style, comfort etc. Which is why we like Pontiac models because they think the same way when they built the GTO and Firebirds.

It is only a matter of time before EVs become mainstream. They are superior in almost every way compared to an ICE vehicle. I decided my next EV will be the Mustang Mach E Premium AWD Standard range. I dont want the extended range battery because it makes the car heavier and that affects performance (acceleration, handling etc). Range anxiety is something that affects new adopters mostly. Those of us that have lived with an EV for a while realize that 200-250 miles of range is plenty.

I really liked the Jaguar I-Pace First Edition. Pricey but very very nice and fast. Many dealers are offering about $20k off MSRP so that gets it closer to my budget but still about $18k more than the Mach E. Another nice choice is Polestar 2 (Volvo subsidiary). That thing is pretty cool and also very fast.

Battery life is not an issue as long as the model you choose has thermal management system with liquid or gas cooling. Air cooled batteries will degrade but liquid cooled batteries will likely last the life of the vehicle as Tesla has proven. The Model S has been in circulation for almost a decade and even the early models are still going strong. EV batteries will have a second or third life in other applications so they will be recycled for certain. They remain valuable even when the vehicle eventually wears out so there isnt much environmental concern about the batteries ending up in landfills.

Hopefully late next year the Rivian truck will be available. I will gladly sell my RAII convertible to buy one of those things and hopefully still have quite a nice sum left over. I guess we will see what happens. I like the deuce but I dont really enjoy driving it that much because it gives me anxiety to pull it out of the garage. Kinda sucks because they are meant to be driven...

I recently had a ride in a Tesla Model X in Ludicrous Plus mode and I was blown away. It actually pulled harder than the 850-horse LSX Solstice I was in back in 2007, mostly due to the AWD system. It could run a 0-60 in about 2.8 and we ran it up to 81 mph in about four seconds. Keep in mind, this is a car that weighed over 6,000 pounds with three people in it. You owe it to yourself to try one out but be forewarned, it will make you question every belief you have about performance cars. If you aren't ready for that awakening, I would suggest not doing it.

Thinking that your GTO will be King of the Hill once you get out on the road is not like the era they originated in. There are many cars that will put our GTO's to shame, 4 cyl turbo cars right up to modern day hemi's.

I got to drive a 2020 turbo V6 Mustang my brother rented. Incredible acceleration and the hard, and I mean slam-bang, shifts were really annoying - and I always have an automatic with a shift kit on "our" era cars. No room for me at 6'4" with the pedal/foot area way too small. I don't think I could drive a stick car with so little foot area. The gas pedal was too high and I had to lift my foot somewhat off the floor to push it which became uncomfortable. Electronic gauges actually had 2 mode setting - but it looked more like a video game than a car, and I like analogue gauges and some chrome trim. Different suspension setting you could choose. I would not want to go on a long trip with it, nor purchase one at the prices they fetch.

I've rented/drove a Chevy Sonic turbo a number of year back and it was a blast and may have given most GTO's a run for their money. I actually was comfortable in that tiny thing. Then I rented/drove a Mercedes "Wolfburg Edition" that was real peppy, but that thing handled like a slot car as I wrung it out through corners. That car would have left a GTO behind on a curvy road, and I could make my GTO's and others cars "talk" pushing them around the local back roads when I was younger. My brother's 305 HP V6/8-speed auto 2013 Challenger would have put shame to my dads' 195HP 283 V8 "3 on the tree" that I thought was really fast and burned rubber when I wanted it to. These V6's nowadays have more HP than many of the HP V8's we grew up with.

So my opinion is that many of the newer cars will outperform our stock or slightly modified GTO's and A-bodies in general. I don't own my car because I think I can hit the streets and put to waste an SRT8 Hemi or turbo Honda (25 years ago that was a different story, I could put to waste most cars on the road). It is about recapturing a bit of our youth, body style and looks, hood scoops and badging, chrome, analog gauges, shifting, burning rubber, the sound of a lumpy cam cackling through dual exhaust, thumbs up, cruising, and car shows. Now if I could just get some MPG's out of it.........

I rode an electric motorcycle - Zero FX - w/ upgraded battery/motor, for almost 5 years. Clutchless, direct drive. I don't think there was anything that was faster 0-60 in a real-world street race, 2 wheels or 4. No maintenance in 5 years.

I like and appreciate them Teslas. But would never buy one.

There is a necessary ability to maintain appliances and cars on one's own.

Battery Life matters.

I believe all of this to be true...The battery technology and this...

There was family here that owned three Teslas. Family's three children and their friend in one of their Teslas, car accident, Tesla caught fire, windows inop, witnesses watched a all four perish because they couldn't get out. I have seen several catch fire and one actually blow up in videos. They're far from perfected.

The quickest 0-100 mph stock passenger car I have ever been in was a Tesla PD90 with ludicrous mode. Something like 2.8 sec 0-60. Guy I work with picked it up used cheap with about 30K miles on it. It was a blast to drive and ride around in. Would I want to own it? No. It just wasn't for me. Too I-pad tech for my taste. But the car wasn't designed for a 60 year old guy like me. It was designed and built for late 30's tech savvy up and coming yuppies. Appreciate the tech, but allot of annoying little things about it weren't for me. My school is now an Official Tesla Training center, one of only a handful in the US. We have a number of donated Tesla's to play with now. I should be learning more about them and getting a feel for the technician pool as well in the coming months. The first group of Tesla students started June 15th, so pretty new to us.

You're right, what the hell are you doing keeping your Goat?!? Owning one is more than just performance, especially compared with today's technology. It's being willing to get your hands dirty changing the oil, dialing in the points, repacking the wheel bearings, listening to the "sound or drama" of the trips opening up. Where do you think the juice for this electric car comes from? How 'bout coal and gas fired plants!? Sell your GTO, your negative spin will disappear. Just venting

Coincidentally, Jay Leno just posted a video about the Tesla Model Y: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH79SuivdAQ

Im sure Teslas are great cars, for the price they should be. I would love the idea of having a vehicle that I dont need to go to the gas station a couple of times a week. Its a shame that they are only available to the upper class. However I think buying one with the premise of saving the environment is completely wrong. The electric comes from somewhere, and I just read that the fed gov is talking about subsidies for installing charging stations!!
I dont drive my Trans Am for performance, I drive it because I like to drive it!!

Tesla is still trying to figure it out.
The whole electric car "thing" is an evolving experiment.
Sure a vehicle powered by an electric motor and a fully charged battery can be a hoot, but it comes with a lot of baggage that starts with the batteries and ends with the batteries and the fact that electricity doesn't just happen in between.
I'll pass.
I'll keep the GTO and all that comes with it and when I need day to day transport I'll stick with something that burns unleaded.

If you consider the torque of a DC motor, just think that GE, and Electromotive have been building diesel DC locomotives for many decades. The diesel engine generates DC current, which runs DC motors coupled directly to the drive wheels.

This combination pulls many tons of weight efficiently with no mechanical couplings. The system has been used because of the torque needed to move a train. There are no batteries used in the drive system of these machines, just a gen-set coupled through contactors.

If this type of a system was used in an automobile, it would be probably near impossible to beat as a performance car, and no batteries, or charging stations.

FWIW, I used to work in the GE locomotive works in Erie PA, so I do have some background in these systems. I also worked for Crown lift trucks as a service tech, which are fully electric lift trucks. I've always thought the DC motor drive system run by a ICE engine would make a phenomenal performance car. 4 wheel drive would be a necessity, IMO.

:3gears:

:burnout:

:focus:

No new car has the "character" or feel of a 60s era GTO but the GTO is a primitive car compared to the new ones. Boils down to whatever floats your boat.

Chances are that you have a newer car, so you have the best of both worlds. That being said, I wish that I could get an old GTO (or maybe a LeMans or Tempest) and do the full blown restomod with the fabricated frame, updated suspension with independent rear and everything. I'd like nothing better than to surprise a few people.

I was at the Classic Car Museum in St. Augustine several weeks ago during the grand opening. Saw a picture/poster of a mid 60s Vette with the caption underneath, " They don't write songs about Volvos". Or whoever else you might want to name other than Vettes, GTOs, 409s, Lincolns, and a few others.

All I can say is "Planned obsolescence" Most of our classics are 50+ years old. Comparing them to modern day cars just isn't fair. It's like comparing them to cars made in the 20's Very crude. Do you think in 50 years anybody will be restoring and driving a 50 YO electric car? Nope, Hell even getting parts for cars made in the 80's is near impossible. I wouldn't mind owning a Chevy Volt at least it can't die in the middle of the road with a dead battery. I fully believe at least for now an electric car needs power redundancy for dependability.

In the link I posted earlier to the Jay Leno video, I think he makes a good point - he says that while electric may become mainstream for general transportation, internal combustion cars are always going to be around.

Like SRR said above, comparing classic cars to current day electric vehicles is kind of apples and oranges - just because an EV is faster it isn't going to change the experience of driving your classic.

If i wanted to spend the cash, I'd love to have a Tesla. I'd have another car for the longer trips. i really don't need another car.

george

I know this discussion has largely been about Tesla as cars and their attributes, I just want to introduce the idea that you consider Tesla as an investment. There is some evidence that Tesla is one of those companies that will be a 10X or 20X investment over the next ten years. There is one analyst with a $7500 price target on the stock. (Its currently at $1000).

FWIW

Frankie, I just posted a comment on the YouTube link Stuart posted. I want to see the comments on that. I didn't anything pertaining to your post on the fatalities from the fire. Keep track of the comments too.

Why not have both? And they were both built in the same plant in Fremont. Long trips are not a problem. We have gone from So Cal to Dallas a couple time. Just have to stop 3 time a day. 20 minutes in the morning, 1 hour for lunch and 20 minutes in the afternoon.
http://tigerefi.com/images/post/Tesl...GTOSmaller.jpg

One million cars later
 

It's not a negative spin, but a paradigm shift that places vehicles in their proper context. With a few drag-racing exceptions, like White Zombie, before Tesla, electric cars were pretty much a joke, performance and range-wise.

We are privileged to live in an age where you can experience a Tesla and still enjoy the classics. Each vehicle from every era should be appreciated within its context and not diminished by newer standards of performance.

But for some of us that strongly associate Pontiacs with strong acceleration, Tesla realigns that perspective and the negativity you feel is the sadness of knowing that our beloved Pontiacs are no longer the king of the hill. But that's OK, because Pontiac, as a manufacturer is no more and the American car company, Tesla, has surpassed one million cars of production. Respect.

I love my 455 TA, but am not so deluded as to challenge a Tesla especially from a dig, and appreciate the advance of technology and performance. That in no way diminishes what I feel when I drive it.

THEN GO ON A 300 MILE TRIP WITH YOUR tESLA and have someone drive your GTO,, GTO gets there in 5-6 hours,tesla gets there in 17-19 hours with battery recharge YEP thats the way!!!!

I'm not arguing for or against Tesla. But your friend is wrong (and obviously doesn't work with electric cars or current battery technology). Going with the facts, Tesla has a lower rate of fires, fatalities, and crashes. The fuel fire percentage rate for gas cars is actually greater than electric cars. You can find horror stories of any car, as well as good ones like below.

https://interestingengineering.com/t...0leg%20injury.

as said lots of new cars smoke 'fast' old ones. it you want stop light to stop light you cant win unless you have one or two turbos, and then you have to set the suspension up right: $$$$

i guess the tesla is so quick because it weighs so much. over 6000 lbs? that's a lot of traction for that engine to really get to the pavement. you'ld have to be on street outlaws to compete with that.

my cousin gave me a ride in his v-6 whatever it was luxery car a few years back and snapped my head like i remember my high school buds 66 396 did. just took off. bone stock. depressed me too so i feel your pain. and here i have a stockish 400 engine sitting on a stand, realizing it wont be good for any kind of a drag race. just a putter.

there is a trade of btwn electric and fossil fuels. cant have electric w/o the biomass it takes to mine it, mfg it etc. but there is at least one company that is recycling these batteries. if anyone needs to know just pm me. sb

Interesting . . ,

https://www.foxbusiness.com/technolo...nge-california

Since Teslas have a range of nearly 400 miles these days, a 300 mile trip should be no problem. If for some reason a person did have to stop for a recharge, the Tesla Supercharger stations can recharge a car in around 75 minutes or less.

I would imagine the number of registrations of all cars fell during those months. As far as that goes, there's another news story from a couple weeks ago that says the Model 3 was the best selling car in the UK for the second month in a row.

Good point, Tesla isn't right for everyone. Just like my hot rod isn't either. Not sure how often you are driving your GTO 300 miles without stopping, I hope you do get to enjoy that often. But 90% of Americans drive less than 30 miles a day.
BTW, no offense, but your range and charge time to go 300 miles is not correct.

All I'm saying is just because it isn't for you... well you get the idea.

Do you define performance on the basis of a stopwatch? If so, 50 year old technology cannot compete with today's technology...that must be called progress.

I think performance is defined more subjectively...it is the feeling, the experience, the emotion in a driving experience.

Does anyone really NEED a car to go from 0-60 in 3 seconds? I sure don't. And quite honestly if it went from 0-60 in 3sec or 0-60 in 4sec I probably would not feel a thing different. But it sure does feel good when I go fast...and loud...and with a car with my own blood, sweat, and tears put into it.

So have a car just for that kind of experience and nothing else...my GOAT does that. Maybe a Tesla does that for another kind of person that thinks money can buy that experience. Then have another car just to get you from A to B with ease...my $10K Chevy Cruise does that :).

Boils down to whether or not you want to work on your car or not.
I would hate to be at the mercy of someone else or someone else's technology.
For cars to do a decent job ( comfort, air conditioned, performance-handling, simplicity, decent mileage, cars don't need to be that complex.

Only the new long range Model S has a "claimed" 400 mile range.

The standard range model 3 has a "claimed" range of 220 miles.

The reason I said "claimed" is that in real world testing, Tesla has proven to not be able to get their "claimed" range. The following is copied from Inside EV's - a respected EV site - most manufacturers are exceeding their claimed range - but NOT Tesla.

The list is as follows:


1. Hyundai Kona Electric, 259 miles (258 EPA miles)

2. Jaguar I-Pace, 253 miles (234 EPA miles)

2. Kia Niro EV, 253 miles (239 EPA miles)

4. Tesla Model 3 Performance, 239 miles (299 EPA miles)

5. Tesla Model X P100D, 233 miles (289 EPA miles)

6. Nissan LEAF e+, 217 miles (226 EPA miles)

7. Mercedes-Benz EQC, 208 miles (259 WLTP miles - anticipated 220 EPA miles)

8. Tesla Model S 75kWh, 204 miles (259 EPA miles)

9. Audi e-tron, 196 miles (204 EPA miles)

10. Renault ZOE R135, 192 miles (238 WLTP miles)

11. Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus, 181 miles (250 EPA miles)

12. BMW i3 120Ah, 165 miles (153 EPA miles)

As to Tesla superchargers - they aren't everywhere - and there have been many cases on holiday travel weekends of waiting hours just to get the opportunity to hookup to start charging.

Last Thanksgiving weekend between LA and SF in CA...

This was in CA - where most of the Tesla superchargers are located. Around here, they are few and far between outside of the Twin Cities. The other EV chargers take much longer than 75 minutes to get a charge.

I don't care if it's a holiday weekend or not, I don't have to wait 5 minutes to get gas on whatever station I pick to fill up right off the interstate.

Electric cars have always felt fast. The EV1 from the 1990's will smoke the tires. They make a lot of torque form Zero. Tesla is a nice car but it is out of my price range. It seems as Tesla is not about advancing electric cars for everyone as their charger is only good for their car. They and all of the others should adopt an SAE standard charger so any electric car can use any charger around the country. It would make more sense.

There are a number of Tesla supercharger locations spread around major routes in Minnesota, there's a map on their website showing their locations. A person could get to most parts of the state without issue, except for maybe the extreme north part of the state around International Falls.

You're right that it's the long range model S that has a near 400 mile claimed range, others are less.

However, all this is not the point. Like mback12000 said above, a Tesla (or any EV for that matter) isn't for everyone, and no one is saying people have to buy one. If you find yourself making long distance trips often, particularly in areas where chargers aren't available, they're not for you. There's nothing wrong with that.

This fact many people miss is that EVs are not generally charged like a gas tank is filled. You typically don't wait till your battery is empty to plug it in. More like your phone, you plug in it every night regardless of what the "tank" is. And so for most people, most of the time, your battery is full every day when you leave for work. Is your gas car like that? I used words like "generally, typically, and most" because the statistics are clear on car usage - the vast majority of us drive short distances the overwhelming percentage of time. So the situation of needing to find a charger on the road during a 400 mile drive is a rare exception. If you're that exception, it's not for you.

BTW, you obviously need a convenient place to charge at home. If you have a garage or driveway, it takes about 10 seconds to plug in and charges while you sleep. Most owners spend less time charging an EV than refueling a gas car.

When you say major routes, for the most part, you mean the interstates.

Interstates don't go to many parts of MN. And remember - per EV Insiders, most Tesla's can't make it 250 miles without a recharge.

I'm from Hibbing, MN (100 miles SOUTH of International Falls). If I wanted to go to Glacier National Park (like I did when I went to the National Boy Scout Jamboree in 1969) - the shortest and fastest way to get there is Hwy 2.

There isn't a supercharger in Hibbing, there is one in Grand Rapids (only 2 chargers) and then there isn't another one until you get to Glacier - which is over 1000 miles from Grand Rapids.

I currently live near Rochester (which has one super charger location).

If I want to take Hwy 63 south - I don't find a supercharger until I get to Kirksville, MO - 300+miles away (only 2 chargers).

But let's say I wanted to visit my buddy Radar O'Reilly (MASH) in Ottuma, IA - It's 240 miles one way and I can't make it back to Rochester, so I need to drive 120 miles out of my way to Kirksville (roundtrip, assuming I can make it to Kirksville) to get to a supercharger so I can make it home, hopefully....

North on 63 - I won't find a supercharger on my way to Ashland, WI at all. Once I get to Ashland (240 miles one way), I either need to drive 70 miles west on Hwy 2 to Duluth (140 miles roundtrip) or drive 210 miles east on Hwy 2 to Escanaba, MI (420 miles roundtrip).

Interstates aren't the only places that take people where they want to go.

Tesla has a decent product. They are fast. But they still don't have the infrastructure to support their charging needs (if you want to use a supercharger) unless you only use the interstate system.

And assuming you find one that isn't being used, it's 75 minutes to "fill up".

There are many, many reasons to NOT buy an EV or even a hybrid for that matter. But having choices is a great thing and will actually help keep a lid on gas prices. If they really catch on, which is doubtful, expect electric rates to surge for grid updates and the like. When I get in a vehicle, I don't like to be overwhelmed by the technology and feel like you have to hold a degree in computer science to pick up a couple groceries at the store. Some people love that. That's fine for them. I also understand that the weak electronics in the EV's, Tesla included, will be the first thing that dies and leaves you stranded on the side of the road helpless. When a refrigerator, range, dishwasher or microwave is lucky to last 5 years, why would someone assume an electronic car would be any better? It's the same cheap, crap electronics, mostly made in China. Repairs will be astronomical as these cars age. Everyone is so worried about the batteries, but other major components such as the motors, controllers, inverters, and cooling systems are each thousands of dollars just for the components. If you mostly drive in a 50 mile radius of home, buy new or lease and keep it 3-5 years, an EV may be a very good deal.

That's why I said most parts of the state, and not all parts of the state.

But again, that's not the point. If a person wants to drive hundreds of miles at a time, particularly in more rural parts of the country, an electric vehicle is not for them. No one is denying that.

Let me remind you what you previously posted and I quoted:

You have one (1) north/south Interstate (35) that is mostly on the extreme east side of the state that only gets to Duluth, 1 true east/west Interstate (90) that runs about 30 miles north of the Iowa border in extreme southern MN, and then 1 northwest/southeast (94) that runs from the Twin Cities to Moorhead.

From Duluth to International Falls is 160+ miles - with no Interstate highway. From Moorhead to the Canadian border is 190+ miles

The total void of Interstates between I94 and I35 between Duluth and Moorhead represents about 60% of the state, so it's far from the "extreme north part of the state".

And let's not forget - if you want to go from the Twin Cities due west on US 12 - no Interstate system once you leave the metro area - all 180+ miles to Ortonville. How about Rochester due west on Hwy 14 through Mankato, New Ulm, Walnut Grove and on to the SD border - no Interstate system for 225+ miles.

Just look at the map of MN and see how much of the state has no Interstate system available for normal travel plans...

https://geology.com/cities-map/map-o...ota-cities.gif

Not all of MN lives in the Twin Cities.

Isn't this a Pontiac forum ?
Maybe post this stuff on a coal powered forum somewhere ?
Or a ' I don't like to drive my GTO anymore ' forum ?
Or a ' I can't wait til the government dictates when and where I can use my autonomous transportation module ' forum ?

In central California, the Walmarts are getting EV charging stations. IDK what the 'standard' is for an EV charger, but I believe there is some kind of standard because I've seen cars listed as having Level 2 or Level 3 chargers- Even Harley's Live Wire has a standardized charging system.
If Tesla is smart(and I'm sure Elon is VERY smart), their cars have an adapter to charge at any outlet from a 110V wall source, to a solar panel charging station, to a Walmart EV station, to a Tesla Supercharger.
One other note- I encountered a Tesla about 5 years ago. It was an early morning, I was on my way to work. I was riding my '03 Harley Nightrain (VERY hopped up engine), so I was fairly confident that I could outrun whatever that was in front of me- NOPE!!! Holy $h!T did that car accelerate!! I was dumbfounded by how fast it was!

I don't know why you're so bound and determined to start a fight over minutiae, but I'm not taking the bait.

If it were "minutiae", I wouldn't be posting on this.

Like most people in the Twin Cities - you believe that anything north of the Twin Cities is "the extreme north".

The world does not revolve around the Twin Cities.