Converting a '69 GTO to Ram Air with a kit for a '68?
 

I searched for info on doing this but didn't come up with anything. I have a deal on a '69 GTO convertible project car that is an all original matching number car. I will be restoring it myself. It has factory A/C, AT, PDB, PS, Console, and Rally II wheels. (I do not have the car in my possession yet.) I intend to keep it mostly original and anywhere that I don't, I will retain all the factory parts so the car could be put back to totally original if desired.

I am going to go with MPFI and think the Edelbrock Pro-Flo 4 system is what I will do. I wish the car had the Ram Air option but it does not.
The reason I'm thinking it makes more sense to me to go with '68 Ram Air is that to me it looks better, is simpler and less expensive. Plus, I'd never try to pass the car off as ever having Ram Air from the factory and I would never take it to have it judged as original. I only will do some Car's and Coffee and other informal local shows. I think it would be rare for me to even be asked about it at a show and if I were, I'd explain just like I am here.
Anyway that's my reasoning for considering going this way.

Now for my questions.
Anybody see any fitment problems doing what I have planned? From what I've been able to read, the hoods are the same for the 2 years so I'm thinking the '68 style hood pan would fit. What's involved with fitting the hood pan to the hood? Is much cutting involved? What about being restored to original? Is that possible if anything that needs to be cut out is saved and stored?

Numerous guys have used the simpler/cheaper 68 system on a 69.
no probo with that.

No idea about fuel injection mounting on lower pan.

On the upper pan - i don't think its absolutely mandatory to cut a relief in the reinforcement frame work like the factory did. But if so, its not much to trim off.

Very little performance gain on the 68-70 RamAir Induction.
Mostly cool factor

Dual Snorkel stock 69 breather works well and looks great, if the car comes with it.
Good Luck on getting the car :)

you won't have to cut the hood at all for the 68 pan, the relief cut is for mounting the 69 door flapper and you won't have that with the 68 setup. One thing you MAY have to cut is if you've got an early revision of a 68 hood that has bracing that comes down the back side of the hood scoops. (so if you open your scoop, you'd see a 2" wide flap of metal in the way) That was only on the earlier 68 hood scoops that had the third mounting stud used. Here's a picture with one of those with the bracket area that went to the upper hood scoop area cut out. Since it's a 69, if it has the original hood or any late 68-70 hood on it, this won't be an issue either for you.

Thanks! I'm really looking forward to my trip to AZ come mid October. I'm dropping off another one of my finished projects to a buyer and Tucson and I'm going to rent a truck and trailer there to go pick up the GTO.

Yeah, I figured the Ram Air didn't add any performance with forced air. But it will be beneficial to have a cold air intake for the MPFI. #2 in this article explains that pretty well:
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp...-efi-mistakes/

Don't know what I'll run into fitting the carb pan. Could be a height difference too. Looking at the photo of the Pro-Flow 4, I don't think any issues will be hard to deal with.
https://www.edelbrock.com/pub/media/...35970_v1_1.jpg

Sorry for all the duplicate posts I made. Excuse me for being new. I don't know how it happened and I had to ask a moderator to delete them for me.

This is good news to me. Sounds like I won't have to cut anything. I'm pretty sure it's an original hood on the car.

Another question.
Would it make sense for me to consider the cheaper fiberglass version of the '68 hood pan? Not original looking but that doesn't matter to me if the part fits decently.

Here's the car as it sits now in the seller's garage:

https://www.hotrodders.com/gallery/d...9/SDC11550.JPG

I dont see any way to fit the upper baffle without cutting the hood braces. And, the 68 hood is different than 69 but the 68 set up should work on a 69 hood anyway. I am pretty sure I posted the step by step process on here. Maybe you can search for it.

I have my original hood still. It is a little kinked at the crash relief on the left side but not rusty or anything. I am in AZ if you are interested. It is the original hood from my 68 Ram Air II. Has the hole cut for the hood tach though....

??? the upper baffle on a 68 setup is flat. it bolts across the top of the braces, there's nothing to cut. You also only need to drill a few of the mounting holes because many of them line up in the holes for mounting the hood insulation on a non RA car. There's a foam seal that goes between the upper pan and the hood that takes up all the air gaps. There's no cutting involved in mounting a 68 pan to any 68-70 hood. The only reason hood bracing would need to be cut is to mount a 69-70 pan with the heat deflectors and flapper assembly. It's recessed above the brace area and thats why the need for cuts.

Here are pics of the 69/70 setup and why it needs to be cut. 68 is a flat pan with no recesses therefore no brace cuts

The 1968 upper pan is not flat. At least for an original part. The hood most definately must be cut.

Maybe the reproductions are flat?

okay, I misspoke about it being completely flat, but if you look at the slight recess it has, it fits completely within the bracing.

I just installed one of these on my friend's 68 last year and the only modification I had to make was drilling two holes. Of the 5 mounting holes, pretty sure the two rear ones and the front center one line up with the holes for the hood insulation retainers, and I had to drill two holes for the outer two at the front. He has an original hood on the car and I didn't have to cut anything (other than opening the scoops). I'm not here to argue so I'm done with my 2 cents.

I see now. That reproduction pan is not correct. The embossed portion goes up (into the hood). The reproduction pan has the embossed portion going down (into the engine compartment) which is not correct. I agree with you now.....no hood cutting required with the reproduction pan. It won't look factory correct but the OP isn't concerned about that in this case.

Here is what an original pan looks like. Photo is from my 68 RA II. The other photos show the area that needs to be cut away from the replacement hood.

Case solved. :beerchug:

I'm confused here.

The photos of the original and reproduction parts make them look exactly the same to me. The photos are taken upside down from each other.

I agree, the pans look the same to me. the picture I posted from the catalog is from the top, and the picture of that original on the hood is from the bottom

is it possible Purely that you just have the pan mounted too far forward therefore requiring the cut? did the 3 holes I referred to line up with the hood insulation holes?

My friend should have his car at the cruise tonight for me to check. I'll get some pictures. Not sure where he got the pan from. it's made of metal but I don't know if there's more than one supplier of the repops. I don't think he got it from Ames or PP.

I did this to my '68 five years ago. If you actually want it functional, you should cut the hood bracing. There is a thread on it somewhere in the archives. I'll find it.

The pans are correct. Picture is a factory pan next to a reproduction.

The factory had the dealer cut the front hood bracing usually quick and rough.
(Had one original owner tell me that he was so pissed about the way they cut it, he tried to refuse the car unless they cleaned it up and repaint the bottom of the hood)


Does it have to - no.
However, without cutting it, the gasket will not sit flat all around and the pan will hit
the front bracing. You may have to trim the front section of the gasket.

the hood cut picture is Boss’s of his old RAI. It still shows the outline of the pan and gasket.

Here is my setup in the '68. If you want it to seal properly, you have to make a few cuts. I did mine with the hood still on the car. Test fitted a few times, laid masking tape where I needed to make marks and cut along my marks on the masking tape...all of my pics from my thread on this got lost in the photobucket picture hostage crisis....
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=68+ram+air

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1597941233

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1597941233

If the price is substantial. I haven't seen the prices in a long time.
Since you just need cold air induction for MPFI mainly , the fiberglass pans seem like a good option.

For a heads up on the hood scoops -
it used to be said that the metal repop scoops will only fit properly on a repop hood.
Not good fits to original hoods.

The fiberglass R/A scoops fit well with original hoods, but you have to have the 69-70 flapper assembly to mount those scoops.
**except maybe epoxy or attachment tape

Factory 68 R/A cars were shipped with "base equipment" breathers installed.
Owners were advised to swap back to the base equipment breathers during weather conditions.
So i guess a real savvy owner would keep a breather boxed up in the trunk for rainy days.
If you plug off the open scoops with a sponge or foam rubber inserts, without swapping lower pans - the 68 system has no way to get any air.

69-70 had provision for underhood air when scoops closed.
Thats part of why that system is so complex.

just heads-up info

Off subject Greg - but love the color and look of your car

While it may be true that the '68/'69 scoops don't truly 'ram' cold air into the intake, if it's sealed properly, it's still going to force the carb to take all air from outside...so it's at least a 'cold' air induction system. I think it's worth the price of admission myself..
Found the pics of the cuts I made...

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1597943351

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1597943351

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1597943351

Thanks Brian...and thanks again for the superb RA parts used on my car.
One more..
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1597944017

okay, that makes sense, I DO remember not being happy at all with the foam fitment. Some of it kept wanting to sneak in front of the scoop openings and I had to keep screwing with it to get it out of sight through the scoops. I can see how cutting that brace out would give the seal more room to stand up rather than squish over.

as far as the original back in the day, I'd read somewhere that the factory shipped an extra set of cut out scoops in the trunk along with the lower pan to be installed by the dealer, but not the bracing cutting half of that story where they'd have to install the upper pan as well.

Well, as for the OP, you can mount it without cutting, (and make it easier by trimming the foam apparently). My friend would have never wanted it installed if it required cutting on his hood, I better not mention this to him! Thanks for all the info guys!

Funny you ask because the original placement was too far forward. I located it in the correct spot when I cut the bracing on the replacement hood. The straight edge along the cowl has some steps bent into the upper pan. Those steps nest perfectly with the contour of the hood and the two rear holes line up perfectly. The most forward hole at the peak of the pan also lines up with a predrilled hole in the hood.

Lastly, the food scoop stud nuts are accessible via access holes in the pan when properly located. The literature that came with the car at delivery suggested the owner remove the open scoops and reinstall the original closed scoops in inclement weather. So the access holes allow this without removing the upper pan. The lower pan would be removed and replaced with the chrome lid single snorkel air cleaner as well. I am sure nobody ever did this though.....they probably just didnt drive the car in bad weather.

The 69/70 set up is much more convenient for the driver to operate. :)

Just for interest, Dad's 69 original had the OEM ram air setup on it. When he switched over to a fiberglass stock appearing hood on his 69, he wanted the scoops functional again, so I built a custom cold air intake using the stock scoops.

It is actually more like the 68 setup as far as basic function goes, but I used 69 L88 parts. The air box had 2 protrusions that actually lined up with the scoops on the GTO hood, so I turned it around 180 degrees and molded that in. I set the depth to accept a 3" filter inside the hood. It comes down to seal against an L88 drop base with seal and screen. I also added a hole and hose at the back of the air box for water drainage. The only way for air to enter the engine is through the scoops, there is no changing it around for inclement weather. We've been caught in a couple downpours, not by choice. But even in rain so hard you could barely see to drive, it never introduced water to the carb and worked fine.
Another interesting piece of info, it seems to do a pretty good job introducing outside air at speed as well. Now with the Sniper Stealth installed I can monitor IAT's. It'll heat soak well over 120 degrees while stopped pumping gas, but as soon as you move a mile or 2 down the road the IAT's will come right down to outside ambient temp readings. It at least gives me the sense it's effective and working.
I actually like this setup (and the 68 version) better than the original 69 setup he used to run. It's much less complicated, and cleaner in appearance.

Thanks Brian. That clears it all up for everyone.

I will make the cut as it's the better thing to do. I can cut it carefully and keep the cut out piece.

That reproduction pan is correct.
The photo of the other reproduction pan posted earlier looks different.
The stair step UP rear edge, the installation helper "FINGERS" and the embossed portion should all be on the same side.

The picture of the reproduction pan in post #9 has the stair step up, the fingers up but the embossed portion is down. That would certainly make it pretty easy to install. Would look and function strange but no cutting required for sure.

Thanks for all the great info here. Since Brian has a used 68 setup he will sell me, I'll do that vs the fiberglass one.

I really did think about going for a correct RA setup but I just like the looks and simplicity of the '68 better. As far as getting caught in the rain, it seems like a couple of small holes drilled in the bottom of the car pan would help along with using an air filter like a K&N that doesn't get damaged if it gets a little wet.
Could even plug the holes and only pull the plugs when it appears rain is inevitable.

The lower pan has drain holes already so you are good.

I'd have a generic lightweight air cleaner and a pair of closed scoops in a box, with the few needed tools inside of it.
Mr.Cool Kit for the Cool factor to impress the other cool kids.
Might would even use it too

Did anybody notice Greg has a Hemi BigBlock DOHC heater core/box ?
Engineering Car ?
DAMN !
D A M N

BVZ, I have you know my Great Grandaddy ordered that car special from John Z personally! He was holding me in his arms as we (Grandaddy, John Z. and me) watched it come down the line so I KNOW it's original.

D A M N !

And the beautiful turquoise color too.
whew
what a Car !

priceless story :whoo:

Thanks. Sounds like a filter like the K&N would be all I would need to do. Any rain that sucked through the filter would probably make the engine run better! Can't really see enough getting through to harm anything.

Since I'm planning to do a body-off restoration on the car, getting caught in the rain would be something I would try pretty hard to avoid. I might consider car shows in other towns up to 200 miles from me and there's always a possibility of an unexpected storm.

I dont know if my car would make it to a car show 200 miles away. Those 4.33 gears out back sure like consuming fuel. I just do short drives right now and still have to fill up frequently. 100 octane isn't that easy to get out here either. I envy those of you that can actually take your cars out cruising.

Here is another thread that might help you, this is a nice step by step instructional to locate and outline the metal that needs to be removed.

Keep in mind 'PurelyGTO68' used a new hood that may not have had the hood insulation retainer holes that 'gto4evr' mentions in this thread to line up the pan.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=809815


Frank

Yes it does help and thank you for posting. I had done a lot of searching but had not come up with that one.

A little rain down the intake will just clean the carbon out....Seriously, I can remember some of the older guys pouring a small coke bottle of water down the intake for that very purpose. They'd rev it up as they dribbled the entire contents down the carb. Black soot would pour out of the exhaust. However, I will confess that I've never done it myself.
I did have a '74 TA a few years back with the scoop open and I drove it in all kinds of weather. Never had an issue with running it in rain.

Yeah I've never had a problem with that. I've driven my 70 RA Formula on cross country trips and heavy down pours at 70 mph. Those scoops are front and center and I have the RA open 100% of the time and it's never once even hiccupped or shown any evidence of rain making it that far.

So I figured dad's that I pictured earlier would be just fine, and it was.

Corporate was probably erring on the side of caution... and warranty claims.

On my 68 convertible I have open scoops and a little water getting into the pans is the least of my worries. I few years back I went on the Hot Rod Power Tour and got caught in some sever weather with torrential downpours and nearby tornados. I was more worried about the 2 inches of water that accumilated in my floor boards than a little dribble that might have went down the carburator.

I acquired a '68 RA setup from Brians. Fantastic deal and condition. Thanks Brian!

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw...-no?authuser=0

Better yet, I acquired the car!

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw...-no?authuser=0

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw...-no?authuser=0

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw...-no?authuser=0

Time for me to start a build thread for it!

Good for you. Brian is a great guy to deal with.

So after all this time, I'm finally ready to put the pan on the underside of my hood.
Question on the upper seal.
Do I glue it onto the pan in this position?

https://i.imgur.com/4zqU2Se.jpg

That photo is one that brains posted about 8 years ago and I copied it here.
What kind of glue should I use and should I glue it to the pan all the way around or just in spots.

I did the same. I didn’t glue it but maybe I should have. It was a little loose in some places and really tight in others. I was glad I could move it after the pan was installed, especially around the scoops.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

So glue all down except for the scoop areas makes the most sense?

That's about where mine is. One of the scoop access holes is visible on each side and the other is covered with the seal. I honestly can't recall if I glued mine or not.

I just checked mine. 95% of it is tight enough that it’s not going anywhere. It’s probably ok not glued.


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Sounds like I should just install the pan and then stuff it in and see how that works. Seemed to me gluing in place first would be better but it sounds like it's not necessary.
I should get time tomorrow to give it a try.

When you screw that upper pan in place it's going to be pretty tight.

I glued mine to the upper pan with weatherstrip adhesive.

I know I glued the lower seal but I can't remember on the upper... I think I probably did.
I know I tried to avoid glue on that lower one but finally gave in. It just wouldn't stay in place with refrigerator magnets...lol
I'm pretty sure the factory glued them both. I had an original '70 RA lower pan and the remnants of foam were glued.

I for sure glue the lower foam that sits on the air cleaner. If ya don't, it blows off with the hood up every time the wind decides to blow, which is a lot.. At least out here in the desert anyway.

Got it done. Not rocket science at all.
I ended up using 3M weatherstrip adhesive in about 7 spots around the pan and then installed it. No problems and it appears to seal against the hood very well.

https://i.imgur.com/aA1Yb25.jpg

On to the lower pan.
Here's a photo of my Edelbrock ProFlo-4. I had to use about a 1/2" spacer in order to get the lower pan to clear the throttle linkage. I was afraid that might make the pan set a little too high for the Ram Air setup but it is not the case.

https://i.imgur.com/wIPBXdZ.jpg

I glued the seal onto pan yesterday and gave it a try on the car. After shutting the hood, I used a flashlight and looked into the scoop openings. It appeared like the seal was fitting snugly around the front side but looked like I had a gap at the rear of nearly 1/2" or so. The angle of the engine makes the front part of the seal go up higher in relation to the hood than the rear part does.

So I got some 1/2" foam strip and put it underneath the pan seal to raise it up using the weatherstrip adhesive. I think it looks OK and not that noticable. I'm more interested in the functionality of having good cold air induction vs looking perfect here.

https://i.imgur.com/ihrejlZ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/qeGfqX0.jpg

Now when I shut the hood and look into the scoops, it appears to fit snugly all the way around.