Catastrophe - New Engine Likely Seized
 

In April, I started building an engine, and today was the first real drive other than around the block and in running in the driveway for tuning purposes.

Downshifting while exiting the interstate, I lost power and needed to be towed home. I thought I had an electrical issue or something, but after going over the engine this afternoon, the worst is apparent. In nuetral, spark plugs out, dizzy out, I am unable to rotate the motor with a breaker bar.

A couple of the spark plug gaps had completely closed, indicating detonation or something weird.

It is a 0.040" over 455, 4.25" stroke. Butler rotation assembly, Stump Puller II cam, etc., etc., Pistons were dished for 91 CA gas. Tri-Power, medium ported #48 heads, etc. Everything redone, no expense spared. Block, heads, etc. all prepped by a really good machinist. Not a single leak.

I will have to sell the car as is. No more time or money. '65 GTO, 4 speed, 3.55 gears, PS, no AC. Not a stock, car, but a good mild restomod. I don't know what I can sell a non running GTO for, but hopefully cover my loss on the engine. Not a good Labor Day.

No noise,knocking nothing?Closed gap would sound like interference of something hitting them.Tom

you would be better off putting a len williams 400 on a credit card and selling the car with a running engine.

also, take a break, let the car sit for a few weeks. don’t do anything rash. you can sell it easier in the spring anyway. you may change your mind in the interim.

My condolences. +1 on what i8 said - you’ll easily recover your investment by putting an engine in and selling a running car.

Who assembled the engine for you? I’d ask them to tear it down and diagnose. Somebody screwed up somewhere.

I agree with i82much.....take a breather, Walk away....come back in a couple days (or weeks) with a clear head. Then start with the basics - drain the oil & look for metal. Buy/borrow/steal a scope you can stick in a spark plug hole to look for debris or other carnage. (they are cheap on amazon if you don't have one). Crawl under it to make sure it's actually in neutral - there is always a chance there is a issue with a new clutch / pilot bushing / throwout bearing causing the trans to hang in gear.

I has similar feelings as you a couple years ago - freshly rebuilt 428 in my Trans Am began to run like crap, smoke, misfire.....I assumed the worst & was getting ready to pull the motor when a member here suggested 2 things: 1 walk away for a could days. 2. Check the valvetrain. Sure enough, a rocker had backed off...tightened it up & everything was just fine. You might not get that lucky, but there's a chance it's not as bad as you fear.

No noise. Just a weird feeling in the clutch when I downshifted then lost electrical power.

I tried to restart, but the starter was unable to turn the engine. This was burning up the starter, which resulted in an electrical burn smell. So, my first thought was that I fried a wire.

When I got home, I pulled the spark plugs, drained the oil, and cut open the filter. Nothing bad / abnormal in the filter.

I'm able to push the car around the garage in neutral, so I'm pretty sure it's safely in nuetral. I'll verify later.

I was the one who assembled it. It's likely some error I made. I know I didn't do a perfect job, but I can't think of anything that would have resulted in a seized engine. Every bolt torqued to spec. Every clearance checked. Rings gapped, cam degreed, pre-load set, etc. I didn't cut a corner on any part. ARP, Butler, Ross, forged crank and rods... I rebuilt the carbs, changed jets, idle circuit, rebuild MSD, the list goes on and on.

I'll pull a valve cover, who knows, maybe something simple.

As for spark plug gaps closed, what could cause that? I thought physical intereference from a bad timing event would be impossible?

Yes, I need to walk away and reassess. Unfortunately, my logical mind tells me that I simply don't have the time. Between work and family I was already pushing it on this project.

Best case scenario: Trans stuck in 2- gears?
Worst-Case Scenario: Crank broke.

You know, the worst-case scenario is not so bad: Block might be okay. Bores probably okay, cam probably okay. Heads probably okay but a couplea valves may need checking.

Mike and I both have bore scopes if you need to borrow one.Tom

The smashed plug gaps tells me something happened very quickly. It would have had a miss driving around with gaps closed. So something happened coming off that ramp and downshifting. First guess would be a dropped valve or a valve timing failure, timing chain, something like that. No metal in the oil indicates it happened quickly. No water in the oil is good news for sure. Even if it dropped a valve, the damage may not be as horrible as you think. Need to just relax and as others have said, evaluate the situation and then make good decisions. Selling it with damaged engine would be great for the buyer, but not you. Also, you want the car to be fixed and working like it should. Hope it's not too bad.

Possible base screw in carb came lose, they can do some strange migration from cylinder to cylinder.

If you play this game long enough you will get bit somehow the difference is in the recovery.

Bright side is it's just an engine not a totaled car you are alive to fight another day

Does your "really good machinist" not warranty his work?

My guy told me to beat the piss out of it and anything I broke the first year he would fix for free.
I've been beating the piss out of it for 3 years now with no major issues...just BS stuff to get down from 12.51 to 11.61....

Tom S - Thank you for the offer, my neighbor has one. I'll look to satisfy my curiosity, but the engine needs to come out regardless of what I see in the hole.

mgarblik - Yes, it was mildly misfiring under load, but not idle. This was my shakedown cruise, so I was planning on addressing those tuning issues today. Little did I know.

Formulas - I'll check for loose screws! Who knows, maybe I got grenaded.

Navy Horn 16 - Yes, I am pretty sure the machinist would warranty the work. I haven't spoken to him as this all went down today.

But, let's be honest, who's more likely to have a made a mistake? Me, the first time engine assembly guy, or him whos been doing Pontiac engines before I was born? I also selected and ordered the majority of the parts independently. It's all very tricky. Maybe he'll cut me a deal on a short block. Who knows...

Guys,the shop is the shop I use and did all of Joe Sherman’s work.Would be hard to hold him responsible if he did not supply parts or assm the engine?Tom

The machine shop crew were good and knowledgable with Pontiacs.

This is my first rodeo... Many things I would do differently, but I stand by the machinist. Between the machinist, SD Performance, John Wright, Butler, and lot's of you folks, I've had great help...

I've taken tomorrow off work... Depending on the heat and my mental status, I'll start unbolting things.

Lets hope for something small and easy to fix.

Could you have gotten a rod or two backwards so the chamfer is on the inside ? Did you gap the rigs yourself and get them too tight ? Things warm up and the ends touch and I bet you could seize a engine up.
I know someone who got 2 main caps in the wrong place. Ran, for awhile.
Hope it all turns out well.

Pull the valve cover off on the side with the plugs whose gap closed up. Look for broken valve springs and a valve at half mast. You may have dropped and bent a valve. The motor literally stops dead in its tracks when it happens with no noise, no engine coast-down and no trash in the oil. Usually accompanied by a chirp of the tires before you thrown the clutch out.

Mashed plug gaps usually mean the engine ate something. Usually a screw or nut. You'll have to pull the heads to confirm what it was. The electrical failure at the same time is weird. Possible starter wiring issue as well?

I agree on pulling the upper valve train first and working your way in. Usually when an engine eats something, It should still turn part way backwards, unless whatever it ate bends a rod. So totally locked up is either starter hung in flywheel or bottom end failure.

Sounds like it ingested something. Rear wheels were driving the engine until you put the clutch in ... engine then probably rotated a few turns and stopped when the ingested part found a foothold. Ingested part includes the possibility of an engine part ... valve.

For a person that infrequently assembles an engine, the valve train usually poses the most opportunities for a mistake.

Not making much or any noise would be unusual though, unless it was a very small part, but even a small part can pound the gaps shut ... do that to a few cylinders and it wouldn't want to idle with the clutch in ... then the part drops to the lower side of the cylinder and wedges between the piston and head and locks it up.

First thing I'd try is turning the engine backwards ... if it turns backwards it's not a piston/bearing seizure but a part stuck in a cylinder.... most likely. Although I guess it's possible a piece stuck in the right place, or multiple parts could lock it up both ways.

Chip beat me to it :)

His filter would have tons of crap in it if he put the rods in backwards.

Dragncar - Yes, I gapped the rings myself. It was a 0.040" over 455, and my target gap was 0.019" for both of the rings per mnfg. instructions. I had the bench grinder from Butler, bore squaring tool, and worked inward on one side of the ring only. Afterwards, I used a light stone to dress / remove the cut end. A couple rings I over gapped to 0.020" or 0.021". I was very comfortable with this process.

Main caps were numbered and straightforward. I'm pretty sure I got the rods right. Yes, there was a fat side and skinny side, and I noted that on install and installed according.

Chiphead - I mispoke, I had electrical power, but the engine shut off, so everything went quiet, and my initial thought was that I lost ignition, coil, dizzy, or some fried wire in between. The starter was still clicking, but not turning over the motor, so my first thought went to electrical.

Dataway - The engine won't turn in either direction. I tried yesterday.

Slowbird - Filter clean. Oil clean.

My guess is something got loose, dropped into the cylinder and stopped the motor . I would use an inspection tool through the spark plug holes, if you have access to one. Pull the heads. Hopefully it didnt do too much damage to the short block.

Explain your rocker adjustment procedure.

EDIT: Also, what valves are in the heads? Original ones refaced?
.

HWYSTR455 - Zero lash + ½ turn of preload. I followed SD Performance instructions, which was straight forward and easy. Following the firing order with each valve on the heal of the cam. He has an easy process. The poly lock tightening was per Harland-Sharp instructions. Also, straight forward.

Edit - New valves. Ferrea. The machinist completely redid the heads, and all components therein. I only installed the rockers, pushrods, and R&Red the checking springs on the #1 cylinder after sorting out the push rods.

S:confused2

All or some plugs have gap closed?

Correlate to one side of manifold?

Mechanical contact obvious?

I would pull the valve covers look for anything obvious.
Remove all rockers and look for anything obvious.....valve/s open or hyper extended spring,

:cool:

What kind of pistons? Cast, forged, or hypereutectic?

Dang, well, some of that easy stuff has been eliminated then.

.

This would be my first guess also.

And warped/bent valves is what closed the plugs.

For a first time build... Improper install of the fuel pump eccentric would be highly suspect. Unless you've done it before, most don't know that the nose of the cam comes all the way through the gear and the eccentric fits over it.

Eccentric bolted on with cam gear and nose of cam flush will let the bolt work loose after a little run time. Once loose the keyway will strip and let pistons hit valves. That's with high lift cams that make the engine interference fit.

Bunch of bent valve stems will lock an engine up.

So if anything is amiss under the valve covers. Next step would be pulling timing cover to see if cam gear has slipped.

Clay

had similar situation a couple years back . motor with all new parts and a couple thousand miles on it. vaulve head popped off and wedged between head and piston. pull valve cover and check pushrods on piston with smashed plug. good luck!!

had similar situation a couple years back . motor with all new parts and a couple thousand miles on it. valve head popped off and wedged between head and piston. pull valve cover and check pushrods on piston with smashed plug. good luck!!

It would be best to take valve covers off for an inspection.
See if anything looks wrong.
If nothing, then take intake and valley pan off to see if anything is wrong.
Then pull heads I guess if nothing is found.

You will basically need the engine to be rotated to pull it without a lot of work, so start with this.


:confused:

Even though it doesn`t explain the closed plugs, I would take all belts off and see if the engine turns. Then, check flywheel, bolts, clutch etc. If all good, it`s in the motor somewhere.


Did that engine run good before it quit? Noise at the moment it quit?

While you`re at it, pull the trans and see if the motor turns. Maybe a problem in the front of the trans.

Just thought about it ... happened when getting off the gas/ down shifting ... when just about every timing chain failure takes place .... so I might throw my vote in with the guys that suggest that as the source. Although I assume the timing set was new.

I agree ....take a breather, Walk away....come back in a couple days with a clear head! if the plugs were smashed, something is a miss or separated. Hope its something small!

Jim

I'd start with the driver's side valve cover. It's only four bolts.
 

Since you mentioned changing back to the heavy valve springs from the lighter 'checker' springs, there's a pretty good possibility that the keepers on one of the springs for cylinder #1 did NOT seat correctly.

That would explain the cascade that would cause the engine to stop turning. (I hate using the word 'seized').

And to add my voice to the chorus, if you get frustrated WALK AWAY for a day or two

Plus- We want to know what happened! Maybe something in the timing set let loose?

I pulled the valve covers and loosened all the rockers. All looks good. All valves up and held by keepers cleanly. Springs look OK. All pushrods, now loose, move and look OK from what little you can see up top.

I loosened all the belts and the engine's still seized.

I can confirm that 3 of 8 spark plugs have no gap. I am not convinced that a proper length spark plug can have mechanical interference unless debris is in the chamber or a rod breaks. I have R43S spark plugs. Gapped to .045.

I put a boroscope in the spark plug holes. Some cylinders looked pristine, others with big brown spots from what I assume is improper combustion. No signs of mechanical intereference or debris. I can still see a nice cross-hatch on the cylinder walls. Inconclusive.

Timing belt was new. Melling set from Butler. Everything was new. Installed straight up. No issues there.

Joe's Garage - It was bitch with getting the #1 real springs on with my spring compressor, as the tool angle didn't fit the heads, but I eventually got them to sit cleanly with the keepers on the valve stems and they are fine still from visual inspection just now.

QUICK-SILVER - I didn't know about the eccentric install weirdness. I remember the eccentric going over the cam nose. I had Rocky Rotellas book and another one from the web, and I follwed instructions. I can't remember any issues, and it went on as it came off as I recall. Who knows, maybe that's it.

As for timing chain, if it failed and a castrophic timing event followed, I would still tear the motor down. So, it's getting pulled. I'd rather disassemble the engine out of the car.

The tranny is the wild card. Maybe something weird with the front of the tranny is causing it to seize despite the car moving fine in neutral. Wouldn't that be something! It's a new Auto Gear Muncie, M22W, built my Paul Cangialosi in Florida. EDIT - A few thousand miles. I dialed in the bellhousing and aligned to within 0.005" with offset dowel pins. I pull the tranny first anyhow, so we'll find out.

I've drained all fluids and disconnected everything up top, fuel, z-bar, exhaist, etc. Carbs off, and lift plate installed. I should have the motor out with a few more hours of work. Hopefully next weekend.

Very depressing, but I really know my way around a '65 GTO now. I'm still unsure of what I am going to do with this car. One day at a time.

Remove the fuel pump and look inside with the borescope.

I've been there. Like others have said take a break. Then set a goal for your family duties, then the car. No one was hurt. You wanted this GTO ,so relax it will be figured out.Take your time. It's easy to get discouraged. I've done it more than once. I had to re machine 2nd time a SD455,luckily the machinist to screw up the heads to bad.Do not quit! Good luck.

Get the trans out and starter out and then try to turn it over with a breaker bar.Tom

Trans almost out. Lining up a friend to help wiggle it out next weekend. Under the car it's a two-man job.

Everything else is disconnected.

Will try the breaker bar again after that. I think it's a 1% chance of a tranny issue, but that's better than 0%.

My 2 cents. If you got a timing chain with a bronze washer behind it I had to sand it for clearance but it locked up tight when I torqued the cam bolt. Secondly have seen flywheel bolts be to long and dig into the block rear main. And another engine ran fine took it for a first rip made it exactly a 1/4 mile down and back locked up on deceleration all the rods were to tight. The crank polished up fine resized the rods and all was good. Sucked but not all that costly. Rod

Only wild card that blows out a lot of guesses is the closed up sparkplug gap. We can come up with some cool scenarios, but the closed gap still says something was floating around those three cylinders and not a bottom end seizure -- but mild since the borescope didn't find any massive trashing.

Did you try and turn the engine once the starter was dropped and the starter pinion was off the flywheel? There's a possibility that the starter dying after engaging the ring gear could keep the engine locked up. Even if you get lucky and the engine turns over after removing the starter you still need to trace down what closed up the gaps.

Most closed gaps on plugs I've seen (more than one plug) is from rod bearings spun that let the piston hit the plugs. But is usually accompanied by noise. The no noise thing is what is strange.

Weren't 4 wheeling were you? I've seen a chuck of wood get stuck between the damper and the oil pan. Locked it up quick. But also noticeable.


:D

Timing chain..Came loose.

Mick,thats why I suggested to pull the trans and starter!Tom

Yes, the first thing I did Monday am was pull the starter to make sure there was no pinion issue interfering with the flywheel. Next will be tranny.

I'm going way in here.. and a bit over a guys head.. but... I think the plugs are the most telling. Can't get around that despite all the tranny and timing belt stuff. In order to smash the plugs something had to be in there. The pistons didn't reach them on there own. That would have made quite a bit of noise lol. Also because you had 3 and not one smashed plug we can assume whatever got in there it happened in the intake and was distributed over multiple cylinders. So think stuff rather than "it"? When you dropped rpms vacuum increased. More pull for junk? So next question... if you suddenly smashed 3 plugs what would happen? Might just stop pretty quick. But seize? Not sure about that. Maybe chain reaction into some other part.

Somewhere along the line somebody left some stuff in the intake, carb or heads and it got processed. That made things very unhappy. Thats my guess. Why didn't it happen immediately. Who knows?

I would pull it. Take it all apart and see whats up. At this point what have you got to lose.

Sorry to hear about the mishap.

Spark plugs closed says something was floating around.

I'm assuming this thing has flat top pistons in it. The only time I've ever had a piston close a plug gap was with a dome piston.
The last 454 I spun a couple rod bearings in was so bad the piston was smacking the bottom of the cylinder head, and actually marked up the top of the piston. Never touched the spark plugs though, because it had flat tops in it. You would need to have a plug that actually stuck down below the entire combustion chamber for a flat top to touch it, and I've just never seen that.

Most Pontiac builds seem to have either flat tops or dished pistons so my feeling is the plugs weren't closed by the piston itself, but likely some foreign object that got in the combustion chamber. I would expect to see a mark (or 2) on the ground strap from contacting something as well.