Oil Starvation W/Canton Pan
 

Hopefully you guys can help me out, found a thread on here from 2015 with the same issue and no solution seems to have ever been posted.

Have a 462 stroker with a remote oil filter on the firewall, WIX 51773 filter, Tomahawk windage tray, Butler 60PSI oil pump, Canton 15-451 Pickup, and Canton 15-450 Road race pan. I neglected to measure pickup clearance when I threw it together ( i know that was stupid, figured you cant really modify the pickup anyway without cutting and welding due to how small the pickup tube is.)

Car is setup for road racing, in aggressive right hand cornering you see the oil pressure drop from 60 PSI down to 30. I always lift off the throttle and let the pressure come back up.

Pan is rated at 6 quart system capacity per canton - I have tried running it over 1 quart and still seems to starve for oil. Has anyone else had this issue with a canton pan? I have also tried some restrictor pushrods to try to suss out if I was pumping all my oil to the top end, did not seem to make any difference.

Figured I would check here before yanking the motor out again to measure the pickup - would just like to have a plan of attack before pulling it, since kind of strange it is starving for oil with this baffled/ trap door pan and the canton pickup.

Have you calculated the fluid volume of the piping system to and from your remote filter, and filter? Do you have an additional oil cooler?

The volume Canton says is based on a bolting it to a regular engine with OEM size filter.

Every bit of research I've done personally points to the 6 qt pan simply not being enough volume for hardcore road race stuff, especially on anything close to an R compound tire. Baffles and trap doors can only do their job if there's enough volume in the system to begin with. At the end of the day, you're still uncovering the pickup and although you didn't specifically state to this being the case, I'm assuming you see this most often on high speed sweepers?

If you're yanking the motor anyhow, I don't know if I would personally even bother with the 6qt pan. I'd go straight to the 9qt pan and I'd also plumb in an accusump.

accusump-yes. Used to be required in some classes of road racing.

3/4" Wix 51773 filter has a max flow rating of 7 - 9 GPM
13/16" Wix 51258 (AC PF24) has a max flow rating of 9 - 11 GPM

I don't know if that plays any role in your starvation issues. Just pointing out the differences between those two filters.

Swivel pick up oil pumps where not just invented just for the heck of it, but I would also go with the accusump as my first choice and you should be running a 2 Qt filter hanging off that firewall mount.

Calculating the amount of oil inside the lines to and from the remote filter and inside the filter itself is always a good idea. I use a remote mounted WIX filter that is a bit shorter than yours and found it actually holds about 3/4 quart of oil. Keep filling it until it's saturated and will take no more oil. My lines have about 1/4 quart inside them.


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I think this is a really important point. It's not just about pan capacity here. You've really got to be looking at what it takes to fill the oil filter, the lines and even the galleys in the block.

If your oil fill consists of replacing an oil filter and topping off the pan, by the time you start the engine and prime the filter, lines, galleys, there may only be a quart or two in the pan itself.

For around the town type stuff and even some spirited driving, this typically isn't an issue, but add a sticky tire and a big, fast decreasing radius right hander into the mix and bad things start happening.

Just to comment, although Canton lists the pan as '6qt', that is the pan itself, so it should be 6+1 (for filter to fill). In some cases, another qt may be desired, so you can go 8 total, plus the remote lines requirements.

Yes on the need to calculate additional capacity for the 'added' filter system.

I have rarely ever seen a need to mod the Canton pickup, but if there's a concern, you can snake an inspection camera up there and look. The bottom brace should be no more than say an inch max from the floor of the sump. You might even be able to just look up in there thru the plug hole.

What heads are you running? You might have a drainback issue, and restricted pushrods don't help much if the drainback is bad, have seen folks complain about that with earlier E-Heads.

A 30 psi drop is a lot. Which pickup are you using, the 15-451 or the 15-401? And which pan?

Could be as simple as an oil filter, or something with the lines or fittings (restriction). Could be a drainback issue. Lastly, it could be somehow the pickup fell off.


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Sorry, bottom brace may not be on that pickup.


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When I called Canton and asked about their statement "6 qt System Capacity" I was told it was 5 quarts for the pan itself and they allowed 1 quart for a oil filter. A total of 6 quarts.

https://www.cantonracingproducts.com...-race-pan.html


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Yeah, I think they just went by the book. I have had a pan off the car and started dumping in qt by qt, and 6 in the sump looked right to me. I have had others talk to me about in practice, and adding a qt always seemed to work better.

I've side by side compared to a Milodon road race pan, which is 7 qt (6 + 1), and they look the same to me in sump depth etc. The GTO Milodon is an 8 qt pan. (7 + 1)

But that's my personal experience.

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Appreciate all the feedback thus far, try to answer everything here.

Yes I have calculated the additional filter + lines, came out to about 1.5 quarts so I am currently at 7.5 quarts in the total system and have tried over filling this to be approximate 8.5 total system and still had the issue. Was highly considering upping it to 9.5 quarts and going easy on it, seems the worst that would happen is puke it out the breathers if it is over full as long as I am not hammering on it.

I will have to do more research on the filter flowing enough, I honestly never even considered that and it is quite an interesting point. Currently have a filter housing that has the 3/4 thread so may have to investigate getting another housing for the 13/16 or a higher flowing filter.

Heads are #16 heads so don't think they have the same dreaded drawback issues. Running 15-450 Pan and 15-451 pickup

In terms of the higher capacity sump, seems like the hammer head style canton is about the only one I have seen and requires modifications to my long tube headers for clearance.

does anyone out there make a dry sump for these old Pontiacs that doesn't cost $5K? Seems like dry sump would be next logical step since the accusump to me seems kind of like a bandaid

You guys could be onto something with the filter itself. Have the sheet for the pump (hopefully this attachment works). Should be spinning 1/2 speed of crank so at 5k rpm it’s pumping close to 20GPH so maybe the filter just can’t keep up?

Keep in mind that not all AN fittings are created the same, and many neck down drastically. That's especially true for what's considered 'adapters'. Many are 90 degrees, squared off, and certainly not 'full-flowing'.

For that reason, at one time when I was considering a remote filter setup, the recommended AN line and fitting size was -12. I typed that right.

There are some 'custom' solutions for dry sump, but, seriously doubt you will get under $5k.

There are some aftermarket oil pumps out there, you could increase psi & volume, it would probably help. The Titan pump is one, but have no idea what those cost anymore.

Can call BOP Engineering, believe they have made a few dry sump setups, but that certainly won't be under $5k.

I say an easy test would be to change to a different filter. If that doesn't work, add another qt, go to that 9.5 qt you calculated, see how that works.

If you still have issues, and you want to eliminate the cause potentially being the remote filter setup, go back to the OE filter housing, and don't disable the bypass.

EDIT: With large lines to the remote filter, volume becomes a concern as well.

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A couple thoughts.

Simply adding more and more oil to the pan's capacity may result in more harm than good. At some point, even with a windage tray installed, you're filling past the point where the crank is staying out of oil. aeration is as big of a cause of oil pressure is, as uncovering the pickup. Further, the aeration of the oil may be more detrimental than just showing the lower pressure, since the air is compressible and you lose your ability to keep the crank and rods physically off of the journals.

Does this car run an oil cooler? If not, do you see this phenomenon immediately as you hit the track, or does it increase in severity as the lapping or race session continues?

I still believe this is overall a capacity issue. More oil, can hold more heat without shearing and losing viscosity. a NASCAR cup car uses gallons, not quarts of oil. Total system volume, cooling and attention to oil flow vs pressure is what keeps those engines alive at 8000+ rpm for 500 miles.

Instead of thinking about an accusump as a bandaid, think about it as adding capacity to the overall system...and it's there just in case. With your 6 quart pan, your filter and lines and now a 3 quart accusump, you've increased your system capacity by 40%.

If you're not running an external oil cooler, I'd also add that to the list.

Some years back I recall a gentleman with a red 65 (I believe) GTO that built a dry sump system using modified pans and part of a C6 z06 sump system to his traditional pontiac. I believe I recall seeing that on pro-touring.com. I don't recall how much he spent doing it, but it wouldn't surprise me if such feat done independently still isn't deep into 4 digits to get it done.

I DO A FAT FINGER TYPO occasionally so , we all know you meant 20 GPM thru the filter.

Tom V.

Car is not running an oil cooler, have not really had oil temp issues even in the souther summer heat but the added capacity may be worthwhile.

I see the issue immediately on track or on a spirited drive in the mountains.

I am running -10 lines and made certain to buy only the high flow earls fittings for any bends in the fittings. All of the oil filter plates I have found are 1/2 NPT so I didn’t see the need to up it to -12 since that is larger than the outlet on the motor side.

I actually used to have the old school setup with the filter up behind the headlight, suspected this could have been contributing so I shortened and mounted to the firewall. Issue obviously still persists.

And yes I agree more harm than good on too much oil, my only thought was once it’s running if the sump is indeed being run close to dry it would only be over full potentially when the car is stationary or am I thinking of this wrong?

I will also do more research into accusump. I like the idea of added capacity.

I really should be better at typing on a phone by now. Good catch

This duel 2 Qt Ford filter set up and it’s overkill flow volume is what gave me good sleep at night after adding 1 3/8” front and rear sway bars and massively wider tires and poly Bushings.

That looks excellent! I remember seeing that style dual filter on the old Herb Adams grey ghost car at laguna seca.

Attached is the setup on my car and a photo of the car since this is a Pontiac forum after all.

Factory "full" on the dipstick and a Canton just cover the top baffle/tray. You can drill the tray and still use a factory dipstick. But mine is about 6+1 also.

The Tomahawk windage tray appears to be like stock with a few more drain holes. I might open up the 4 holes that are inline at the bottom to 1" for faster draining of oil into the pan.

Next, I'd use a crank scraper. This will wipe any excess oil off the crank and act as an oil "dam" as the crank is spinning and whipping up the oil up from the pan.

Might even try a thinner oil. You did not say what oil you are using. I would use a conventional 15W-40, or even try a 10W-30 depending on your bearing clearances. Conventional oil provides more "oil cushion" than synthetics.

The Accusump is also a good addition just for insurance for the type of running you are doing.

15-40 VR1 is what I’m running in the car. I live near allot of circle tracks so this is readily available and high zinc content. Clearances are somewhat loose so I think the higher weight is a bit nicer since this cars only purpose is to beat up

The extra oil held in the wings of T-sump style pan might help keep your pickup covered while cornering. Canton 15-444. Nice looking car.

Might want to call Stan at Steffs. They built me a sweet 7 qt pan with the kickout and trap doors. Work of art.

The custom "Fabricated" Oil Pan I have is built with a smaller space in the area of the pick-up screen. (The trap doors are closer to the pick-up).

I was told that this design keeps more oil closer to the pick-up vs the poor oil pans design oil ability to run away from the pick-up but still be inside of the trap doors farther away in the sump.

When you make sharp turns, there is more oil available in the "wings" of the stock baffles pan to rush to the center of the oil pan and pickup. On a cruise the trap doors allow the oil to return to a even level throughout the pan above the pick-up as the trap doors do not seal perfectly. On a level road the oil level is basically horizontal to the ground.

I like the Winged/ higher oil volume pans for that quick ability to supply oil to the center of the pan, but a well designed trap door stock pan will do the same thing.
A poor design gives you a false sense of security. The oil pressure drop on turns is trying to tell you that the pan design has issues.

JMO Tom V.

thanks for all the info guys, much appreciated.

I have a higher flowing filter on the way, going to do an oil change and stick the borescope up there and inspect the pickup as suggested on here. Then I can get an exact reading on the oil in the car.

If the issue persists I will be looking into a fabricated higher capacity pan or the accusump idea.

keep you posted once the filter comes in.

Wix Racing filters flow up to 30 gpm. https://www.wixfilters.com/Speciality/Racing.aspx?1
I have that same Canton pan and pickup on an IA2 and 2-455 blocks and the pickup sits very close to the pan as I can remember. I would say trying a high flow filter would be your best bet for starters.
Not saying this to be a smarty pants, but I'm sure you plumbed the remote oil filter housing properly with supply and return. and even at the engine block. Just saying

If I read the posts correctly, I sincerely doubt that your problem is the oil filter, as it only shows on right hand turns as per your post.

Having run hundred of laps on dirt tracks, and autocross tracks with only Stratostreak Pontiac V8s, they do have a tendency to starve on right handed corners, left handed corners aren't usually a problem with just a factory baffled Pontiac pan. This is with a plain jane stock type filter for over 3 years on the same bearings in a large journal 428 engine. If your bypass valve isn't blocked, the filter isn't going to be a source of starving the bearings.

Of all the street and race engines that operate in the worst possible environment (dirt track), I've never blocked any of my by pass valves on any Pontiac engine.

The easy band aid is an accusump to cover when the pickup sucks air. IMO, a more permanent solution is going to be either build/improve the better pan yourself, or have one of the specialty manufacturers build you a better pan than your Canton.

The late Smokey Yunick did calculations, and to have no restriction and be able to block your oil by pass valve in a race engine running at high RPM it would take 4, 1 foot long oil filter canisters, so plan accordingly, or leave the by pass valve operative.......:2cents:

Try tapping an oil drain back (10AN) in the rear part of the head and run an external line down to the pan....and an accusump like others have suggested

The center of the pickup should be 3" on center from the rear pan wall. 1/4"-3/8 off the bottom. 1/2" max, but not ideal.
Building a pickup with a slightly larger dia than stock right now.

Just for sh*ts and giggles I found a Wix 51515R filter here locally and changed the oil. The inspection camera was too big to fit in the drain hole (of course) - was able to get a flashlight and some fancy iPhone angles and pickup seems to be totally fine and right about 1/2" off the pan.

Filter and lines hold exactly 1 Quart.

Started out with 6 in the sump and then worked up to 7 in the sump + 1 in the filter. Can still recreate the issue on right hand corners even on the street. Also did some heavy breaking in neutral holding it at a steady RPM and you can see it drop in that regard too. Does seem to be slightly better than it was before but if you hold steady 3,000 RPM and go right hand corner I can see it drop 10-20 PSI vs. Left hand it does not drop. (Was concerned maybe I was seeing the RPM drop which would obviously drop the oil pressure accordingly so was trying to hold RPM and load steady to test)

Guess the next step is putting a plan together for a larger sump pan as you guys have suggested and yanking the motor. The T sump canton pan won't clear my headers so may be looking at a custom route I would think.

Really kind of disappointed this pan is marketed as "Road Race" and I can get it to starve in my neighborhood on 200 tread wear tires :jaw:

The issue with the Accusump devices is that the pressure drops off when the oil pan pick-up and the oil in the sump are not staying together and the the accusump tries to bring additional oil into the engine due to the lack of the lack of oil flow from the pump.

It works but having a properly designed oil pan and pick-up system to a better way to go.
Fix the problem where the problem is. Easy to say, sometimes had to do.

Tom V.

Totally agree. It would help but regardless I would still be starving for oil. Going to reach out to Stefs and nitemare performance tomorrow and inquire about a better designed larger sump

What Is The Proper Clearance Needed Between The Oil Pickup And Oil Pan?

"You can calculate the clearance by measuring the internal pan depth and measuring the distance from the block's pan rails to pickup bottom. The difference between the two measurements will provide the pickup to pan clearance. Gaskets will add some additional clearance. Here are some recommended pickup to pan clearances: Ford Pans- 5/16-3/8 inch (.312-.375) Chevy Pans- 5/16-3/8 inch (.312-.375) All Others 5/16-3/8 inch (.312-.375). Deep sump pan pickups are submerged deeper into the oil are less sensitive to clearances. Deep sumps may have clearance up to a 1/2 inch."

Source: Canton Racing Products

Curious, any drop in pressure going straight ? Moving along in say second gear with the RPM steady then stab the throttle can you see the oil pressure drop about 20 or so pounds for an instant, then quickly recover ?


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Unless someone put a "deflecter" Shelf on the back wall of the pan, at high speeds the oil will climb the back wall with hard accelerations or hard side to side movements.

The deflector needs to be welded to the rear surface of the oil pan about 3.5" from the bottom of the pan. It needs to go across the width of the rear of the pan.

A 1/2" strip the width of the rear of the pan is all you need to attach it to the oil pan.
the deflector needs to be a 1 inch identical strip for width but the strip is bent at a 45 degree angle downward and
the bent piece faces the front of the oil sump..

Tom V.

Not here to suggest this is a issue with the OP and his right hand turns topic. Information for interest, and a topic we had in another thread regarding a drop in pressure with acceleration.
And it involved a Canton oil pick up, and it's potential design issue.

Related to a statement made about oil pressure, "when you stab the throttle from say 3000 RPM up to a instant 6500 RPM it has trouble keeping up for a split second."

I encountered the same or similar situation. Moving along in say second gear with the RPM steady then stab the throttle you could watch the oil pressure drop about 20 or so pounds for an instant, then quickly recover. We first discovered it when we we installed my fuel injection system and noticed it happening on the data logger printout information for the oil pressure. Sounds silly but before that I had never noticed it since I was always looking forward, not at the gauge, as the car lurched forward like a rocket ship..

When I talked with Mark Luhn he said it was not all that unusual. He has seen it on his oil pump dyno. I now run his custom oil pump and it no longer does it. His custom oil pump has a taller gear set and larger diameter pickup that results in 87 percent more flow per revolution than a regular Melling oil pump.


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His oil pumps are works of art and CNC machining.

1) His Oil Pick-up design is unique and at the same time has a lot more flow capability when combined with his upgrades on the Oil Pump itself (as Steve Mentioned).

2) The Billet Oil Pick-up design will work with any depth oil pan once he has the actual pan sump depth dimensions from the oil pan flange, gasket used (vs RTV), and the engine block.

A work of art. If you look closely at the oil pump pick-up, there is a oil pump screen trapped inside (between the pick-up bottom plate and the main portion of the unique pick-up design).

Tom Vaught

Agree. After I switched to his oil pump my issue stopped.

My Luhn pump is this design:
http://www.luhnperformance.com/image...ump_03_200.png

I might note his pick up design as I pictured was a modified unit from a late model Mustang Cobra, it's no longer available so he now makes his own design as Tom posted.


I use a Canton 15-450 pan that was custom modified by canton with a deeper sump to increase the capacity, also the previous Canton oil pick up was properly adjusted for the increased depth.

Same oil pan now, same baffles, same trap doors... now with the Luhn pump and it's stable oil pressure no matter how hard you hit it !

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Mark @ Luhn Performance started his design with input I provided from work
The pick-up tube diameter was originally a 1" tube used on the Aston Martin V-12 Engines. (vs the stock Pontiac tube diameter of .730" outside diameter).
When the Aston Martin parts dried up, Mark found the Ford Cobra engine pick-up tubes.
Mark's machined aluminum pick-ups are the best design to date.

Tom V.

No sir, no oil issues ever under acceleration. Only way it can starve in straight line is hard braking.

Use a stock Pontiac pan with a built in baffle - 1973 and up.

Extend the pan.
Add a baffle to the back of the pan so the oil does not climb up the back wall.
Use a Butler Pro 60PSI blueprinted oil pump that provides more volume.
Use an extended oil pump pick up like the Moroso pickup.
Measure the distance between the bottom of the pick up and pan. 3/8" is ideal.

The pick up will be deep into the extra oil. Baffles should keep the oil where it needs to be. End of problem.

In 99 out of 100 Pontiac Enthusiasts who are drivikng their cars on the street what you posted would work great.

In a very early post, Jim, the OP says he is road racing this Pontiac engine and already bought a advertised Road Race pan which is not doing the job for him.

So we are trying to understand why the Canton Road Race oil pan is not doing the job as advertised. Road race guys make right hand and LEFT HAND turns on the race track and sometimes on the street (parking lots with Pylon track markers).

Just bringing you up to speed on the thread. Have a great day my friend.

Tom V.

A fwiw, for some interesting observations read thru this entire thread regarding the Butler Pro Pump.....

" I changed my oil pump to the Butler Pro 60 psi pump and been fighting it for 3 days now."

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...utler+Pro+Pump


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It has been interesting to go back a few years and review some of the improvements to the stock Pontiac Oil Pump (modded by Luhn Performance). I posted a picture of his latest Oil Pump Pick-up design in a previous post. #39

Here is the link to the Luhn oil Pump website. http://www.luhnperformance.com/pontiac.html

I have to smile when I see the Part Numbers for the Various Modified Pumps. http://www.luhnperformance.com/pontiac.html#pacemaker

Thanks Mark. Nice pictures of the mods he made previously to the Melling Oil Pumps prior to his Latest "Elevator Shaft"
(my name for it) Oil Pick-up and Screen design.

Tom V.

Man that looks hard to snake the pan on during installation!

It most likely DOES turn the oil back into the pan on Acceleration runs though, vs climbing the rear of the oil pan. Tom V.

Nope, I am up to speed. Picture shows the oil level depth of 6 quarts of oil with the extended pan. Note the marked lines on the tape. Those are the levels of the oil with the stock pan and you can see the difference in the level between the stock 5 quarts and present 6 quart level. Still can add more oil to bring it up to the stock 5 quart level - so at that depth, and the extended oil pick up, I would think the pick up would be covered in left/right turns on a road course with what baffles are shown, and a crank scraper that'll extend from the pan edge to keep oil from riding up the side.

Another photo is of a Mopar pan with added baffle that is a little more coverage to keep oil in the pan.

I am not convinced it is a pan issue since it is a road race pan and should have baffles where needed. The OP also stated he added an extra quart to the already 6 quart pan - so it was overfilled and in most cases can cure the issue.

I have seen YouTube videos for the Accusump used for such type driving, but what they don't show/tell is if the oil pan found on the car being used as a demo has the stock pan or a road racing type pan - my guess is a stock pan which would better demonstrate the need for the Accusump.

What has not been asked is where he picks up his oil pressure. I would tap my line at the oil feed next to the distributor if that has not already been done. I think this might provide a more accurate reading.

Seeing the OP has 60PSI that drops to 30PSI in a right turn, and when he lets up off the gas, it returns to 60PSI, maybe excessive clearance/worn thrust bearing surface as the crank moves forward/backward?

How about installing an AIR BALANCE TUBE between the pan area and a valve cover to help balance air pressure in the pan and allow the oil to easily flow back into the pan? Just a thought.

On the same line of thought, how is the breather/PCV valve set-up?

LOL, no problem at all with the engine out. The Milodon pick-up is small and I notched the back wall baffle so it goes on quite easily, no fighting.