4L80E?? Gear Vendor's,?? What AOD did you use?
 

I think I'm going to start using my 69 GP as my daily driver again. Looking to install an overdrive trans and debating on what to use. I have a fairly fresh T-400 in the car and thought about using a Gear Vendors overdrive, but they are not cheap. I also thought about a $L80E but to find a rebuilt one, and buy a converter, and then get a controller, it seems to end about the same price. And the Gear Vendors seem like it would be less work to install. What have you used, and are you happy with it?

Is this Dave I'm talking too? I remember racing with you (67 GTO if memory serves) at Kil Kare, the old TA Nats races years ago.



I've been both ways.

If you have a good working 400 and converter setup you're happy with, the Gear Vendor starts to make more sense. It can be done cheaper than a 4L80E. The Gear Vendor offers an overdrive ratio of roughly .78 and that generally is enough to satisfy as long as the rear gear isn't more than 3.73's.
It has some drawbacks that would be lengthy for me to get into. Just to touch on one is the semi frequent fluid changes that Gear Vendor recommends would add up rather quickly on a daily driver.

The 4L80E offers other advantages that sway me more this direction. The ability to fine tune it, shift points, converter lockup points, harshness, and the ability to just let it do it's thing and forget about it. The converter lockup is nice as now stall converter slippage doesn't really factor in when cruising. When it's locked, it's locked. The drawback is cost. To do a fresh unit, with a good converter, good controller, mechanical speedo housing, cross member, driveshaft, cooler lines, 4 speed detent shifter conversion etc.... you can get over $4000 and up to $5000 pretty quickly. Cost is really the only negative going with a 4L80E and the reason why so many steer away from it.
My opinion, worth every penny!!

Yep, it's me. GTO is in someone else's hands now. Got another ride though. A 74 TA that used to be a Super Stocker.

Anyway, I've been leaning towards the 4L80E but wanted to hear some opinions from those that have actually done it. After I typed this I decided to do a search (yes, that was probably backwards) and have seen some mixed reviews. But most seem to really like the 4L80E. Thanks for the advice.

Almost 20 years ago I followed the HP Pontiac Magazine article and installed a 200-4R in place of the T400 in my 1967 GTO and contrary to what a lot of people on here say I have never had any problems. Used ShiftWorks kit to modify original shifter. Installed new yoke on original driveshaft. Transmission was built by BowTie Overdrives and they talked me through the adjustment of the cable. In fact they insist. I couldn’t be happier. Oh, by the way, engine makes 600 hp.

Don't mean to hijack the thread but which way do you guys would be quicker at the track?

Thanks. I actually have a fresh 200-4R but was hesitant to try it. Car should be somewhere between 400 - 450hp. Might want to take it to the track once just to see what it will do, but don't intend to make more than a pass or two. It is on my bucket list to take it to the Silver State Classic some day. The trans came out of a Monte SS which I'm told is a little better than most 200's. So I might look further into going this route since I already have it.

at that power level & street purpose, a 200r built & adjusted right will be fine & far cheaper & easier than GV or 4380. they are proven to last behind big power, lots of GN's doing 10's & even 9's & plenty of members on here with 400-500+hp pontiacs with them.

This always gets emotional with people. I would say price wise the GV is a waste at that power level.

I would think a bone stock used 4l80e would work with no building necessary at that power level. They have gone up in price, but I still see them in running condition for like ~400 here and there. They nickel and dime you from there. Controller, driveshaft, adapter plate etc. Its not a cheap swap. If it was cheap I would have already done it myself.

Im still not sure I agree that a built 200 would be cheaper than a used 4l80 and its required components. Getting a transmission built is expensive. Plus once you get a 4l80e in there even if you waste it you can just go get another bullet from the junkyard for a few hundred bucks. You torpedo your built 200 unit and it hits for the initial cost all over again.

There are valid reasons to use the 200R4. Its easier to bolt in, you already have it, doesnt need the expensive controller. All valid. Also not going to argue with that said above that some have been proven to last once built. All that said, the 4l80 is better transmission. It just is. There is no argument.

nobody is arguing the 4l80 isnt a better/stronger trans... my comment was that a 200r built to a basic moderate level can handle 400hp pretty easy, especially on a daily driver seeing mostly street/highway use. the high end expensive builds are more for racers & the 500-600hp cars. back in the 90's HPP magazine was suggesting stock 200r's from the GNs & monte ss as a drop in for mild built pontiacs.

4l80e and a US Shift controller and call it good.

Not pointing fingers. Just making a point. Ive never used a 200, but I have annihilated several mildly built 700s which are supposed to be the stronger of the family. So Im clearly biased here. It all depends how you drive it. My dad always brags he could make a stock t5 last behind 600 ft lbs for years. He is probably right. My dad is incredibly boring. It wouldnt last under my right foot.

I also thought that the 200s were an expensive build even in the mild build category. I could be wrong, but I thought you were staring down the barrel at about $2000 no matter what level of build you wanted from a reputable builder.

I kinda think the world "mild" when it comes to making power with cars has changed dramatically since the 1990s. I mean my motor is pretty mild. I think my duration at .050 is like 236. I dont think I would trust a factory Monte 200R4 behind what qualifies for mild here in 2021. I DO think you could reasonably trust a yanked 4l80e even with miles on it already.

Thats really what this comes down to I think. Would you rather have a new 200r4 with all the money into the trans itself. Or a used 4l80e with most of the money into what it took to swap the unit in. I would bet you end up fairly close in dollars.

The only problem I have with a yanked 4L80E is mileage and how it was taken care of. Most people in the last 20 years couldn't care less about changing transmission fluid, and most of those 4L80E's were used in trucks hauling and towing heavy loads. Many of them, if you can find one, have well over 150,000 to 200,000 miles already.

I was told by an employee at Hughes that cores are now getting harder to find, hence the core prices have increased nearly double. In fact, he wanted to buy all the 400 turbos I have laying here as they are also getting more difficult to find.

For me personally, sticking a used one in the car just isn't an option. With everything else built and restored throughout the car, installing a used trans just doesn't sound appealing, lol.

I don't mean to steer anyone away from a 4L80E, but any trans that is 15-20 years old I'd expect at least a basic rebuild should be in order, with new solenoids and wire harness included to minimize problems.

The good thing is that rebuilding one isn't all that expensive. You don't have to beef them really at all up to 750-850hp. I good basic rebuild with quality clutches/steels isn't hard to do. If you can rebuild a 350/400 turbo you can do a 4L80E. In fact most fresh 4L80's offered by vendors advertise 750-850hp with nothing more than a solid rebuild. Only difference between that and the 1000HP models is a billet input shaft.

Kind of a loaded question. Like Dave, I'm a racer at heart, and even though we are talking about street cars, I'm guessing he's much like myself and enjoys making our street cars run as well as they can.

As far as what would be quicker really depends on how the rest of the car is setup. The car I did my swap in, was already setup with a perfect working 400 turbo and a nice Continental converter. Going to a 4L80E really didn't change anything as far as performance, it's identical in gear ratios. I simply added an overdrive and lockup converter.

What it does provide me with though, is more accurate and consistent shifting with a programmed controller, and I now have a lockup converter which almost acts like another gear, and can be locked on full throttle runs at any point I wish, which should affect ET and MPH.

It's going to depend a lot on the rest of the car and what you're starting with.

I appreciate all the feedback. Right now I'm leaning towards using the 200 that I have, simply because I already have it. If it breaks, I'll regret it, pitch it in the scrap, and find a 4L80E.

Ah, didn't mention that in your first post.

By all means if you already have a 200 I'd certainly go that direction. A good rebuild with a few tricks should provide years of service without trouble. Especially a driver type car, and they are a pretty straight forward swap in a Pontiac.

im not pointing fingers either, just wanted to reply to the point i was making. the OP has 400hp & will use it as a daily driver... to me thats very mild & well within the range of a good working 200r. & definitely applies to the "all depends on how you drive it" factor.

200s are no more expensive to build with common parts as a 700 or 350 from a reputable trans shop, im not talking about the race parts they need to live behind high power/torque engine, just good quality clutch packs & other parts. if any shop wants $2000 to do a basic trans rebuild... find a new shop! you can buy a strong art carr 200r complete for $2000-2500 & they claim they handle something like 600hp & provide a warranty.

mild to me is more along the lines of adding maybe 100-200 hp over the stock rating... ~350-400hp with iron heads & pump gas... not an engine like your or my stroker with aum heads, forged internals & cams in the upper 230 to mid 240 duration etc etc. 600 hp is not really "mild' for a street car regardless of the era, even though i do agree its pretty easy to make that kind of power today. just to clarify, HPP said factory GN & monte 200s behind mild built cars, & back then or today that was 350-400hp tops... & as a street cruiser not being raced or abused to much.

I replaced my TH400 with a 2004R spring of 2020 behind a stout 455 (about 575 hp and tq). No problems after two summers but not tracked. I used Extreme Automatic's stage 2 for ease of mind. If you already have the 200 maybe touch base with Lonnie at Extreme (or another reputable source) to check off some potential sources of problems. Different animal the GN and the 455. Also, the 2004R is an easy install.

Just out of curiosity I went to Art Carrs site. For the 200-400 HP 200R4 its $2499 with a 300 core charge, shipping and I dont think that comes with a converter. Add $400 for the 400-600 HP model. Im sure you can probably get that cheaper locally, but by how much? Arent transmission rebuilds just expensive these days period? And do you trust a 200R4 built by someone who isnt an expert specifically on that model? Like I said earlier, Im not one of the guys yelling DONT DO IT with the 200s, but there are only a handful of names I feel good about in that process.

We probably have some transmission rebuilders on the site. I would be curious what real world gets charged for a 200r4 and for a 4l80e to be freshened up. I havent had it done in over a decade, so Im sure I am out of touch. I only ever see the Boutique type shop prices on the internet.

Moral of the story I guess that is that getting overdrive into a classic BOP isnt cheap. Especially if you are making any kind of power.

You're right, overdrives aren't cheap no matter which way you go, unless you just happen to have them laying around and the skills to rebuild yourself.

There are all kinds of rebuild kits all over the internet. They range from a couple hundred to several hundred. I used to buy kits wholesale from TransStar years ago. I've rebuilt a few for people I knew and just charged a couple hundred labor plus parts, but I don't make a habit of it. It's somewhat tedious work and a little time consuming, at least my methods are, and I'm not charging enough for it. That labor charge is not the norm however as many mom and pop shops will be closer to $1000. More with bigger name places that critique certain models.

I've built my own stuff for years but when it came to a 4L80E I didn't have a core anymore (had one and sold it like a dummy) and didn't have the time to roam the junk yards. So I called Hughes. They are local, supplied the correct year core I wanted, and built it (850hp version with a few tricks in the older case) That was running around $2000 at the time but prices everywhere have jumped up quite a bit since then. I think just about everyone that offers a fresh 4L80E now like Jakes, Hughes and others are well over the $2000 mark. By the time you do a decent lockup stall converter you're at another $800 minimum and most charge $1200 and up. Controller is $800 (I recommend US Shift), ShiftWorks conversion for most shifters will be close to another $200. If you have fab skills your cross member can be made to work, otherwise another $200-$350 for a custom piece. You can shorten your existing driveshaft and rebalance for about $200 (local to me) but I usually opt for just having a new shaft made that is stronger anyway and that usually runs up around $600. Will sustain higher critical speeds with the overdrive and hold about 1000 HP if you opt for the 1350 joint version. Never have to worry about it.

You can see how it all starts adding up.

"Right now I'm leaning towards using the 200 that I have, simply because I already have it. If it breaks, I'll regret it, pitch it in the scrap, and find a 4L80E."

Based on my personal experience consider converting it to a non-lock up torque converter. I can highly recommend the Bowtie Overdrives TV and Throttle Cable SYSTEMS. That is we used on my 200 4R.

i may be a little out of touch too on prices for a complete 200r, havent checked the art carr site for a few years, looks like the 400hp is $2500 now & the 600hp is the added cost. as with anything in 2021, prices have increased a ridiculous amount, pre covid i bet the 400hp was a few hundred under 2k.

i did just have a th350c rebuilt locally in the last 2-3 years, called around to the big name trans shops, they wanted $600-$800, aamco being the highest & the others were bigger shops that have been around my town for 30-40 years. this is for a basic rebuild, no fancy race parts but included a name brand rebuild kit, 1yr warranty, with me bringing the trans to them. not sure how much more a 200r, 700r, or 4l60/80 would be.

im all for using the better trans if/when its needed. for this situation its going to be cruising around town & doing 70+mph commutes on the highway with 400hp . in this case the 200 would probably be the cheaper & easier install, i recall HPP was doing some articles on 200r swap & you could use a factory x/member, & maybe even the stock driveshaft, no trans tunnel mods & keep the factory shifter.

i fully agree any OD option will be expensive. in this situation, a cheaper & easier way by far would be to just change the rear gear, a 3.08 or 2.73 would be ok except for long interstate trips at 80+mph. & could keep the good th400.

Not sure for the GP but for my 76 TA when I swapped from TH400 to 2004R I used the same cross member in the same place and only had to use a slightly taller tranny mount, the same drive shaft with no length change, a new yoke (GM 27 spline), no mods to tunnel, used same B&M Mega shifter that came with ability to go to 4 speed, added a TV cable set-up and used great instructions available from Extreme (and elsewhere I am sure) and a Comp Cam mount kit (304147) for my Sniper since the universal mount was problematic, and I was highly advised to get a good cooler with fan (went to the Derale 13720 for the recommended specs - could have went cheaper but wanted to get past nervousness from over thinking) and matching inline thermostat Derale 35020.

If you need 2004R work
 

Lonnie Dyer (sp?) at Extreme Automatics in Amelia Ohio (Cincinnati east side) is one of the most reputable 2004R guys for the Turbo Buick crowd. However some $$ not sure how his prices compare. And of course he does other transmissions
My buddy has one in his ‘87 TType WE4.
I am considering to budget for one of his trans when the day comes.

Re Monte SS better trans, IIRC the difference is valve body used in in Monte SS, turbo Buicks, and maybe 442, something about G or F….

Are the 4L80 cores or T400 cores getting hard to find?

Both according to Hughes, at least around these parts anyway

So just to give you a little more insight into my ultimate goal with this car. It's my 69 GP that I've owned since July 1985. It was my daily driver for several years until I decided to only use it ocassionally in order to preserve it. Now I've decided that instead of having it sit most of the time, I want to drive it again most, or all of the time. So I'm going with the original 400 block, bore to 4.155, I have a 4" stroke forged crank with 3" mains, bbc rod journals, I'll use 6.8 H-beams. I'm thinking about using Edelbrock D-ports (no porting except maybe a "clean-up"), shoot for 10:1 compression, hydraulic roller 220/228 .470 lift on a 112 (approx specs). RPM intake 800 cfm Q-jet. AOD trans that we've been talking about, and 3.55 gears. Eventually I'll put bigger brakes w/ disc all around and upgrade the suspension with aftermarket control arms, adjustable shocks, sway bars, etc. Once I get the car where I want it, I intend on running the Silver State Classic with it at least once so I can mark that off my bucket list. Right now I have not begun on this at all. It's just on paper so things might change.

Can I ask why make it non-lock up?

I intend on taking long interstate trips and running the Silver State Classic with it. So I'll have to bite the bullet and spend the $$.

You won't regret the overdrive decision. The initial cost might sting at first but after you drive the car you'll wonder why it wasn't done sooner.

One thing I really like about 200's are the gear ratios. The 2.74 first gear will really help get that big car moving, and the .67 overdrive will work nice with 3.55's.
2100 rpm will be about 70 mph with a 27-ish tall tire.

A lot of builders shy away from the lockup converter on these types of TV cable transmissions mainly because of the way it's activated. Usually electric solenoid via vacuum switch or one of the two. Very hard to adjust them to engage exactly where you want, and behind an engine with a bumpy camshaft can cause chugging when engaged at an inopportune time. Some of the vacuum switches can be tweaked with a small adjustment screw but the range is very limited.

That's where the electronic control transmissions have an advantage, as that lockup feature can now be programmed via computer to engage and disengage anywhere you please.

Even with that said, looking at your current planned build, and I'm sure you already know this, but a ~434-ish engine with a 220/228 @ .050 cam on a 112 should idle pretty darn smooth and produce a ton of vacuum, so I wouldn't suspect chugging with a lockup converter to be an issue.

Janis transmission in Akron Ohio is also one of the go to shops for the Buick guys.

ok wasnt sure on things like that, just a suggestion on a gear change.

Go with the 200. It's FAR cheaper than the 4l80E to install. I've put all three in different cars, 200, 700, and 4L80E's. The 4L800 takes the controller, bellhousing adapter, and it is expensive to buy initially. Certainly stronger, but at your power level a properly built 200 should be fine.

What Larry said...

"A lot of builders shy away from the lockup converter on these types of TV cable transmissions mainly because of the way it's activated. Usually electric solenoid via vacuum switch or one of the two. Very hard to adjust them to engage exactly where you want, and behind an engine with a bumpy camshaft can cause chugging when engaged at an inopportune time. Some of the vacuum switches can be tweaked with a small adjustment screw but the range is very limited."

At the time I had a lock-up converter installed the cam was either a 260 or 255 @ .050" solid roller with 0.701" or 0.709" lift and a 110 LSA, I don't remember which now. It was "bumpy". That can lead to issues Larry eludes to.

Much will depend on the overall combination but for me personally with bigger cams and anywhere from 635-660 HP the best thing we did early on was to change to a non lock up converter on my 2004R transmission.
That and a proper TV cable hook up.

My non-lock up converter was built by Continental and purchased thru Cliff Ruggles. It is well coupled out on the open highway with about a 200 rpm slippage. The transmission has been in service for almost 12 years.


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I run a Gear Vendors in my '65 only because it was added after I'd already been running a high dollar built T400. It works great, but I wish the OD was deeper than 0.78. If I were starting from scratch with nothing, 4L80 would be my choice in a higher hp car.

Yep that's honestly been my only complaint with it.

Wouldn't think it would be that hard to design another one with a little more reduction to fill that void, there really isn't much to the unit. It's been .78 for as long as I can remember.

What I don't like now is that Tremec is starting to follow that trend as the new TKX has jumped up to a .68 now instead of the .64 they had for decades. They would have been better served changing that horrible 2-3 gear spread and left OD alone.

I heard Continental has been shut down for some time now. Any recommendations for a non-locking converter?

Lenny is one of the best....

http://www.ultimateconverter.com


Lenny at UCC used to work with Kris at Continental years ago.
A few years ago my non lock up Continental torque converter in my 2004R transmission developed a cracked hub where it is welded into the body.
We sent it to Lenny for repairs.


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Mikes Answer to this: Go for the Gear Vendors. My car came with it as part of the purchase so I paid for It one way or the other. I can cruise at 3,000 RPM at 80 MPH on 15' Rims on the High- way with the GV on. Off, your down 500 Rpm and better Off slowing down. I use the TH 400 Automatic with a B+M Shift kit and shifter add the GV button on the shifter Grip. Mike Out. P.S. Gear Vendors has a fine screen in it and it needs to stay clear and DON'T use Synthetic on a street application. Also, I run 3.23 Gears in the Rear End.

Mike Answer to this: I drive a 1979 Pontiac TA with some extra weight dual batt., Roll Bars throughout, extra fans, everything has coolers etc... The weight of the entire Vehicle is now closer to 4,000 lbs. Although I have never weighed it. Since you have the TH 400 and it works, keep it because they are original and built strong in the 1960's -69 from what I have read and experienced. See my other posts for more of my parts description's, if you wish, they might help in your decision. Mike Out. P.S. By the way, the Gear Vendors will give you 6 forward Gears (splitting each of the 3 in half) in Manual for racing or if you simply wish to wind out each Gear to its Max. RPM range. I use the Automatic switch constantly for Over Drive Daily. It will be the best money spent I can't do without mine!

+2 on Lonnie at Extreme. I'm also running one of his 200R4's - no problems at all yet. Using a Lock-up converter. works great. 400 HP 460 TQ combo.

I'm 2004r as well. BUT as mentioned you will need some hard parts for it to live in anything with TORQUE. Lonnie, Jakes, CK, great group of folks...the only "issue" with the 200 is the person building it! It is not a tranny that "anyone" can build to survive behind monster torque.

Just my personal experience. I put a Gear Vendors unit behind a TH 400 in my '66 Tempest Custom wagon in 2012, and I have loved it ever since. I don't use it much in town, but it is great on the highway. I have 3.42 gears and 27.5 inch tall tires. I run a mild, '73 455 in it