Can it be done?
 

I am putting the motor and trans in my Tempest Saturday. The engine and trans are together and the trans fit my tunnel perfectly BUT engine/trans assembly has to be installed as one piece because there is no way to get to the trans to bellhousing bolts in the car. I have had the assembly in the car with no front clip. I have Doug’s headers. I also have a load leveler. Can it be done?

Yeah, with the engine tilter you can do it. You need the car probably as high as you can get it & check out your ceiling clearance before you start. I’ve done it a couple times by my self. Another set of hands / eyes would really be helpful.

ETA, remove the distributor, fan etc.
Good luck!
Murf

I’m gonna have 5 people and a **** load of comforters covering everything to keep it pristine

I have yet to try this but have heard that the trick is to raise the back of the car.

You mean yo tell me that something like a ratcheting box wrench can’t get at and tighten up those bolts from the trans to the bell housing?
I have bought long cheap regular box wrenches and heated and bent them to clear stuff.

On one T bird I bent up 3 of them to different shapes to get on thru headers on a FE and tighten up stuff.

They don’t need to be good super quality steel either since that makes them easier to bend besides being cheap!
As mentioned, having the engine tilter is paramount to you getting this install done regardless of how many folks you have around to help!

You'll likely need to install the headers after the engine/trans are in place. Read the instructions that come with the Doug's headers. Mine require lifting the engine with the oil filter adapter and starter removed. I suppose you could get lucky and have them in exactly the right place, but its unlikely.

I got lucky and did not have to cut the tunnel to fit the trans but…with that comes zero clearance for getting to anything!

Boy that sucks !

Absolutely can be done. I prefer, and do, almost every car this way.

It's gonna suck for you when the clutch goes out..................;)

I've seen people that have made access holes in the firewall, and sized them so that rubber body plugs fit the holes when not in use. A Hemi in a Dart body was the application I saw many years ago so they could swap transmissions without pulling the whole assembly, just a suggestion.

Same here! I always install the transmission and engine together in the cars. It's WAY easier than trying to mate them up in the car, especially with a manual transmission.

Guess am different. When I've pulled a Muncie from the bottom (4 bolts), the bellhousing bolts become accessible, Same process to change a clutch as an transmission.

Of course my funnest cars all have manual transmissions.

This is my experience too. Get the engine mostly where it belongs, trans up on the crossmember then slide the headers up and get some bolts started. Drop the engine down onto the mounts and finish with the headers.

Murf

Easiest way..when one has done many engine/tranny swaps by themselves you learn the easier way to do things.

The funny thing is the engine and transmission was designed to be split apart in chassis by the the engineers to service either the engine, or the transmission separately. No service manual shows pulling them as an assembly that I've ever seen.

Pulling the whole assembly to service one, or the other makes a whole bunch of extra work. When I was 16 YO and was just beginning working on cars we used to pull the whole assembly, but as I got around professional mechanics they would wonder why I was doing a lot of extra work to pull both components, to work on only one. Took a lot of BS from the old guys early on.

I decided to try pulling one, or the other instead and found when your working against the clock for a paycheck, you split them in chassis, and remove only the part you need to. As I said I used to pull both, but stopped doing that after working flat rate as a mechanic.

I'm not saying it's better either way, but it is faster to split them in chassis. From 50 years of experience, the only way I'd put both in together is I was working on both at the same time, (as this situation is in the OPs car, both pieces are out already), With a lift, I'd probably install each part separately, and marry them in chassis. I do realize he doesn't have a lift in his garage.

I'm still not certain why you cant access the bell housing bolts in this scenario. I really don't like standing the whole assembly at a 45 degree angle to stab the transmission into the tunnel, then tilting it as you get the engine closer to the frame. Lifting the engine out nearly level without the transmission attached, you have a lot less clearance problems.

I also think that doing more modern drivelines without nearly as much weight on the rear is easier to balance. Consider when I first started working on cars that the had cast iron hydramatics weighing half of what the engine weighed, plus they were as long as a freight train, much harder to stab in a full size car as an assembly. I also got tired of the transmission fluid lake you inevitably get if you don't have a spare yoke, which many time we didn't as teens working in our parents garages.

Man my father used to get pissed when I did that in his garage at home...LOL, and he was a mechanic to make it worse, and he never filled the floor with transmission fluid when he did it.

I also have found it easier when you're alone, to do only one piece at a time. Doing both as an assembly is possible with one person, but easier with more.

:2cents:

Just to be clear, the original poster asked if you can put the engine and trans in at the same time. I, and others were responding to that.

I read all the posts, I do know the situation, and put that in my post.

Given the car is just restored, the possibility to damage it, by putting both assemblies in as one seems like the last choice I'd do, having done it once myself in 1974.

I also had a 69 GTO that was freshly painted. If you look at my signature pics it's the black flamed 69 GTO behind the 69 GP race car. I needed to pull the engine and transmission out of for work on both units, it also had headers. I was a nervous wreck reinstalling them as one unit, so I wouldn't do it again. Been there done that, not doing it again. I was younger (20) and less experienced in 1974 when I did mine, but it did get done, and the car was unscathed.

Yes it's possible, it also is the easiest to cause damage to a very nicely restored car too. I hope the OP gets it in unscathed. I'm sure there will be some that disagree, and that's fine, I have my experience's and they have theirs's. Everyone has the freedom to choose their operations on their car.

So yes it's possible, I did it, and so have others on here. Having done it once on a nice car, I wouldn't advise doing it. The engineers made the units separate and show in service manuals how they intended them to be serviced as separate units, that was the point of the post. Sorry if you don't agree with the points, even though I believe they are valid.

And the final thing is, I put in my :2cents: at the end of my post, although you may deem it worthless, and that's fine with me.

Before the invention of engine tilters, we used to have a helper stand on the trans to get the proper tilt This was in my "64.

i

I was that guy when I was growing up. Fattest guy around. 😁
Man those tiller’s were a great invention!

I can’t believe all the shows on TV where they use a damn old forklift on a $250k car. To use one of their favorite terms “ that’s sketchy “

Murf

I actually do have a two post lift just for the record LOL

Whatever you do, don't use it................LOL

That'll make life much easier.

I do my engine/trans installs on the 2 post, with an engine tilter and it's a one man operation. I use the Mac Tool tilter for more room and easier operation. Those big bulky tilters with chains can be rather cumbersome.

I have a shop here and one at my father in laws shop. My lift is in his cause of the higher ceiling. Honestly I may be dense but I can’t see how the lift would help??????

Well, I probably should let Larry answer but in the meantime .

You can lift the car easier than with a Jack. You can go higher than a floor Jack easily can & it would be much easier to adjust the height as needed. No messing with Jack stands, blocks etc. I sure wish I had one. I also agree the levelers that mount close to the engine not with the longish chains would be really nice . I just have the HarborFreight one with the chains it’s OK. I took the crank handle off & double nutted the thread rod so I could use a battery operated drill.

Have fun!
Murf

64speed,
1) You put the engine and trans together and tilt the engine just enough upward until the engine and trans will go over the fender.

2) Now it is inside the the body and you raise the body a foot on the two post lift and raise the engine and trans an additional 1 foot and try to stick the assembly into the firewall hole.

3) If the firewall hole has the engine centered and the end of the trans clears the floor, you just take a floor jack and raise the back of the trans and install the engine on its mounts.

4) If the trans hits the floor you raise the 2 post lift an additional 6 inches and try it again.

At some point the engine and trans will be in the correct location to put the trans crossmember in the car.

SIMPLE

Tom V.

How I do it by myself in my garage. No lift necessary.

The Mac’s Pivot Plate makes it easy

Both the engine and trans were being replaced.

I simply rolled the car backwards little by little as I extracted the engine and trans rather than pull the hoist rearward. Much easier to move the car carefully little by little to adjust for the clearance you need rather than to try to roll the hoist in any kind of precise manner with the weight of an engine and transmission hanging from it.

One thing you must be sure of is that you have enough clearance between the bottom of the front A-arms and the extended legs of your hoist. My car has 26.7” tall 215/75-14 tires on it so I had adequate clearance.

I know your car has low profile tires on it, it would be worth your trouble to find some 15” wheels that clear your disc brake setup and mount some tall used tires on them to ge the needed clearance for the hoist legs.

Just one of the different ways to do it, hope this helps.

Good luck. :)

.

Yup, exactly. It's just easier on the lift moving the car up and down slightly as needed without the need to even bend over really.

Here are a couple pics of me doing exactly that. Installing a complete 455/400 turbo with accessories in the Firebird I restored.

Another shot doing the same thing in a 57 T-bird I restored.

Another one as I just finished dropping in the entire assembly in a 69 Mach 1 Mustang I restored.

Thank you Tom. I never would have thought to do that. If it is too hard in the driveway I guess I’ll tow it to my in laws

I've appreciated the discussion and photos in this thread, as I will soon be facing a similar situation as 64speed. I hadn't seen the Mac's pivot plate/leveler before, but it seems really handy. Looks like I'll be adding it to my Christmas list this year.

Looks like a great tool but are the 3/8 inch carburetor studs up to the weight? Obviously it has worked for you but it seems like you'd want beefier studs. Did you use grade 8 or something or was it not a concern?

The carb flange bolts are only 5/16-18 coarse thread and more than up to the task. No grade 8 hardware necessary.

Many folks are afraid of the small fasteners breaking and rightfully so, but worry not as they’re far stronger than you think.

Those four little carb studs easily handled an all-iron 389 and 2 speed weighing in together at roughly 850 pounds.

Mac’s wouldn’t be too smart marketing an engine lifting device that would fail due to a faulty design that requires you to fasten it to the carb flange. Simple engine lifting plates have been around since forever, the Mac’s Pivot Plate is the ultimate progression of that design.

Thanks B-man....

FWIW, the math for 4, 5/16 studs/bolts, grade 2, was just shy of 16,000 lbs when I worked it out a couple years ago. Each bolt is 3930 lbs. You could do it with just one bolt providing it was in at least a 1 inch deep hole, the cast iron would probably fail before the bolt. With 4 bolts, you could theoretically lift the whole car safely.

I couldn't tell you how many Pontiac V8s, with transmissions attached that I've lifted with just 2, grade 2, 3/8 bolts holding everything up.

With chinese bolts, disregard everything............:eek:

2 and a half hours and no damage

I have no idea why this new phone rotates my pictures

Good job! Looks great.

WooHoo! Looks great.

Nice work!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You’ve received so much info my head was spinning taking it all in, amazed at all the Pontiac Knoledge out there. Install the headers in the engine bay tied out of the way, raise the ass of your car as high as you can get it and install the engine, have a friend guid the trans in through the tunnel, once the engine is on its mounts raise the tail shaft and install the trans cross member. Now figure out the headers.
Good luck

Glad you got it done!

For future reference I also take the wheels off the car when it’s on the lift. You don’t have to lift the motor/Trans near as high (especially if it is already at an angle) since you can sit the car so low. I agree that it’s nice to be able to move the car up and down as you position it.

Also- I am not 1000% sure but I think my 65 shop manual suggested removing the engine and Trans as one assembly?

I move the trans forward about 3” on the jack drop engine straight down put bell bolts in then back it all up 3” into position in a 68 bird not many tighter than that and it works great. A buddy showed me that years ago when he saw me tipping engine back to get bell bolts out. it was a duhhhh moment.

Saw a guy at the race track last season with a T shirt that said "That's sketchy even by my standards"

I've got to find one of those.

K

Probably because it is easier than raising the back of the car.

;)

Mopar guy who goes by "uncle Tony" sells them. https://uncletonysgarage.com/product/sketchy-t-shirt/ He's got a youtube channel with some good car guy content.

I've never tried it that way either, but it sure sounds better than trying to R&R both units bolted together as one. No need for engine tilters, someone standing on the transmission/engine, etc. The only thing is if the transmission stays in place hooked to the crossmember, it saves draining it, unhooking, and removing the driveshaft, and crossmember, disconnecting the shift linkage, removing cooling lines (automatic), speedometer cable. The flat rate mentality is to do less work, make more money. That's the way I approach every mechanical job I do. Flat rate isn't hourly pay, it's piecework, the more you turn, the more you earn.

But in this case both units were new, and already out of the car, so it wouldn't have saved any operations by having the transmission bolted to the crossmember before the engine was dropped in. In this case rolling the transmission ahead to put the bolts in during the install wouldn't have saved any labor/time.

The tilting the chassis up in the rear to put the engine/transmission assembly in, but maybe it's no worse than pulling, and installing the engine, without removing the hood. I saw that done on a bet by my fellow flat rate mechanics, and yes it's possible. No damage to anything either.

There are many ways to arrive at the same end result.

Happy the OP got it done, with zero cosmetic damage....;)

64, you took a lot of abuse and took a long time and spent a lot of money, but you did it all in really good taste, IMO, and have a gorgeous car in every sense of the word. Well done.
I have always done my Pontiacs with the engine and trans separated. You can get the top bolts on the bellhousing with a 3 foot long extension and a swivel socket no problem. Come in from where the driveshaft is. A-bodies are easy. My old '61 Corvette is so tight that installing the engine and trans together is a huge time and labor saver. It requires a load leveler, the car to be lifted on ramps, and a lot of overhead clearance.
Anyway, well done on your '64!!

Thank you