LS power vs Pontiac
 

I came across this LS build ( https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/44...84yrjBz_SOgQsE ).
Everyone talks about how great the LS is but i don't see any reason why a Pontiac can't match their power level. With a little effort and a good topend, i feel the same power can be had with roughly the same cam specs as that LS.
I made 620+hp with a cam that's real close and .5 less compression and kre d-ports with only 2 dyno pulls. More pulls/testing and i feel it'd make 640s. Put on a good set of e-heads and theres 10-20hp more imo.
So power wise in my opinion the LS has nothing on us.

The last only advantage when you look at things Apples to Apples is lighter weight and a tad less friction when I look at .
Having to pull the heads to get the lifters out would be a big turn off for me!

The thing with an LS is for less than a 1000 dollars you can get a complete engine, buy a cam and make 500+ crank hp.

When it grenades, go get another.

Also stock truck heads flow like a set of Edelbrocks hard to beat technology.

A bottom end built like Fort Knox also aides the LS in ability to make power reliably. The biggest advantages I see in power production would be sequential port fuel injection and coil near plug ignition. getting timing dead nuts and fueling exactly what is specified for all scenarios really helps tame the street drivability of an engine that could otherwise be considered more of a track build. All of this can be accomplished on a Pontiac build with some $$ and enginuity, and with heads that will flow enough to feed the power level there shouldn't be anything holding you back until you make enough power to stress the block into literally breaking. general consensus is maybe 600-650 on a stock block.

i mean honestly if you are gonna spring for a new engine block, BBC is still king. a basic dart block 555 will put a hurt on any comparable LS or Pontiac engine.

I'm sort of in Steve's camp, I'm a BBC guy, they are robust and easy to make power with off the shelf parts. But I like all engines and enjoy building them all.

The big LS attraction is that these engines are still found in bone yards, sometimes with relatively low miles, and are just a cam swap away from making 500 HP pretty easily. So you can get into the 500hp group without much work and not a horrible amount of money.

The blocks are tremendously strong benefitting from the deep skirt/main cap design Chrysler had decades ago, and they don't have windage to deal with. Way too many to count that do a crank/rod setup in a stock LS block and throw a turbo on making 1500+ HP and the blocks live a long life, and do it with a 5.3 at that. Try that with a stock Pontiac block, lol.

Cylinder heads are another big advantage, as they flow like gangbusters in stock form, compared to a stock Pontiac head it's not even in the same ballpark.

The LS just has decades of advancements to it's advantage. When I was playing with them it became pretty apparent that the LS had a HP per size advantage over the classic iron. 500hp with a 5.7 LS isn't that hard and still very docile, vs classic iron that generally needs more CI to reach those goals and be friendly.

Granted with aftermarket support the Pontiac can be very worthy, but you'll spend 4 times the coin to get it there, with most likely a larger engine needed. Just an aftermarket block alone will set you back $3k.

Just depends on how much you want to spend.

i agree 100%.

i guess in fairness, if the junkyards were littered with good 455 pontiac cores, you could maybe just go pull one, stick a big cam in, and go fairly fast for cheap.

but here's the thing .... they're not :D

if if's and but's were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry christmas!

:clap2:
Nail on the head right there. I've mentioned this in the past. Just can't go anywhere and grab a low mile Pontiac, stab a cam in and make power. Those days are long gone.

So True. Unfortunately. Butler Performance was one of the first to dip into the LS powered vehicles,
and has done well with those engines.

TV

If your at bolt on N/A level no sence to stray from Pontiac BUT if you desire next level forced induction and beyond then other things make sence.

The low RPM torque of the Pontiac is what hooked me in 1976 I would rather have 500hp at 5000rpm then 650hp at 7000rpm

That's just me

LS engines are easy to beat. We heard about an old customer with a beautiful 64 GTO inquiring about having an LS engine built when he maxed out his Butler Performance 461. I reached out to talk him off the ledge. He ended up with a maintenance friendly seven second pump gas Pontiac engine. We've seen the engine twice in seven years. The link below is a video of his car.


https://fb.watch/9zski6WQQ0/

There’s a good thread on Facebook where Pontiac’s are making over 800 hp with a stick block and steel heads! SCREW A Chevy!
A lot of well known Pontiac guys are in on the conversation, Voycey, gaydosh, McCartney, etc!
I will recheck spelling of names…..sorry!

GTO George

I agree cost and availability is the real advantage that the LS has. But if you have a pontiac engine already why would someone switch it out? I see guys switching and it makes no sense to me.

If you're going to go big block then BBF is the way to go, BBC have too many disadvantages compared to the BBF (except cost i guess)

Road and Track seemed to have a different opinion in 1998.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...am-ws6-review/

"The First LS1-Powered Pontiac Trans Am Was a Monster"

Butler has always been a great businessman. He keeps the Traditional Pontiac Engine work AND he plugs into 1998+ Pontiacs and lots of Chevy work.
A Smart Family.

I find the title of the Road & Track article humorous. (see above)

Tom V.

Cost is the first thing that comes to my mind.

Absolutely you can make power with Pontiac, plenty of aftermarket support. But what does it cost to get you where you want to be? Especially if you want to convert to EFI.

EFI is also part of the decision making for a lot of people from the swaps I've done.

Starting from scratch with a Pontiac engine, any dinosaur engine really, I usually end up spending $10k minimum for a solid rebuild with all new parts for something that makes decent power. Probably more now with the current situation we're in.

A lot of guys see an LS in the yard for $800 that might have 80k miles on it. Sometimes you can score that with an overdrive transmission to boot.
I've done these swaps. I can buy a computer, tuned, and brand new conversion harness (not a hacked together 20 year old used harness) for $1500-ish. Depending on the car there are various mount kits for a few hundred, and I usually spend about $1000 on a complete fuel system to support carb or EFI, which I would do with any classic engine build anyway so that really doesn't figure in.
A few other odds and ends and I'm still way under a complete engine rebuild.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not an LS fan boy much these days and quite honestly I'm tired of seeing them in any classic every time I turn around. Just from playing with them for 10 years or so, and the ease of availability right now, I see the reasoning behind it.

700 HP is easy with LS.
403 cubes -- 707 HP.

https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-te...ild-with-ffre/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdC_VYG7oAg

What if they added 60 more cubes?

Here is another.
LS 7 454 820 HP pump gas naturally ASP / solid roller cam. @ 48 seconds into the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUGGGnjjGXo

Many applications when the client wants north of 600 HP they move to forced induction anyway.

Yeah I touched on that earlier. They make fantastic power for their size. Something I found right off the bat with my first LS back in 97. Just a cam swap and some headers/exhaust and I put down just over 400 RWHP with a little 5.7 and still got 27 mpg with the silly thing and daily drove it over 100k miles.

Here's an example of one of my own that touches on what I meant in post 17.

This blazer was my daily for years. Transmission started slipping so my first thought was perfect time to stick an overdrive in it, since it's my daily, right?

Looking at costs to buy and rebuild one, I started looking at LS swaps in the boneyard. There was a 2005 6.0 with it's 4L80E offered to me for $1200 and it only had 79k miles on it. Well that's a no brainer....DUH!!!

So the swap began. Fuel system, conversion harness, and about $4000 total I had a complete LS swap in my daily blazer that knocked down 21 mpg highway and ran circles around the old 350 I pulled out.

In fact, here it is at the track running 14.30's. I never touched the engine, not even headers. And that's coming out soft because it had a habit of snapping the pinion off the truck 12 bolt.
It weighed 5300 lbs. without me in it, had 33" tires on it, and 3.73 gears. Friggin hilarious. Poor SS camaro owner didn't know what hit him.


https://youtu.be/msgSc3S-yHA

Anyone looking for BBC, Mark Jones turns out tons of stellar builds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIIoazbO0d0

BBC 467
10.6 compression
Isky 238/248 - 578/608 - 109/105 billet hyd roller
AFR 305 heads, performer RPM intake
950 Pro systems carb.
648.9 HP @ 6400 RPM 619 TQ @ 4500 RPM

I have both, I love both platforms. Pound for pound, dollar for dollar the LS is hard to beat. I have built a few 5.3s and 6.0s that I threw decent cams in, coupled with some headers and a good intake they absolutely move out. Super cheap when compared to a comparable Pontiac build.

Right now I'm in the planning/parts shopping stages of a 455 build. The cost is astronomical compared to the LSs.

Factory hydraulic roller lifters that work... LS for the win! ;)
Seriously, it's hard to overlook the performance capabilities, and the features built in from the factory. Many already mentioned.
I think the answer, as usual in comparisons, is "it depends".
A friend I work with has a 99 or 00 Camaro. Still has the original cathedral port LS1 heads, intake etc. As a retirement gift to himself he had a 402 built and used the aforementioned original (but ported) heads, intake etc. Made (N/A) 620hp on the dyno, is driven to the track and runs 10.20's @128+. Just imagine building a 400ci Pontiac that makes 620HP, and what it be like to drive, maintain, etc.
Brand loyalty is cool, and I get it. But GM, as they well should have with 35 years more experience and all the technological advances that occurred in that time frame built a better mousetrap, no pun intended.

Neither build is cheap or easy..

A BBC makes the least amount of horsepower per pound than any other performance engine. They are great for truck pulling.

Lots of folks are bitching about the price of a Thanksgiving dinner this year. I guess they are the ones concerned about a Pontiac costing a few more dollars that an LS engine.

I can't relate to buying an old Pontiac and wanting to stuff an LS engine in it. I also can't relate to buying a fourth Gen F-body and wanting to stick a 455 Pontiac in for use as a hot rod street car.

I see a lot of money spent on fuel injection (I'm a Holley distributor) and seldom see any advantage over a well set up Q-jet, other than a bunch more money spent on the EFI and you can have a remote starter which helps warm your Muscle Car up before you drive it to work during the winter months.

Kinda odd hearing folks vote for the cost saving of building an LS engine and not being bothered by the added expense of fuel injection over a carburetor.

When you happen to line up with an LS car at the track who usually crosses the finish line first, you or the LS powered car? ;)

Good point.... Or can you not hear the lifters ticking over the factory installed piston slap.

We have a few local that will best him by 1/2 second. LMAO., He is fairly close to Toronto.

But .. once you get out into the rural areas.. who knows.

Great crates are pretty cheap.

thompsonmotorsports.net

Warranty as well.

There may be even better options.. this was just a 4 minute search.. many seem to like thee guys.

Forged Piston & Rod Aluminum LS3 Longblock w/ FRANKENSTEIN M311 Heads 800HP

Forged aluminum ls3 block Forged pistons and rods STAGE 2Blueprinted New GM aluminum LS3 blockKing m..

$10,568.99

---
Note: Those heads flow 360 @ .600 and 383 @ .700 - :)

https://www.thompsonmotorsports.net/...11%20Graph.PNG

I used the stock GM harness from the trucks I get my LSs from. I convert them to standalone setups with about $30 worth of relays and a fuse box. Two credits for HP Tuners later and I have an LS up and running.

The fuel system is a simple Walbro frame mount and a Corvette regulator.

Impressive for the weight.

Mr Bill Klausing had a 63 wagon 4300 lbs with a basic 462 engine and a decent 400 trans/converter that would run 12.06 20 times a day at the track
(if you kept putting gas in the thing.) 1963 rear axle, frame sectioned for a bit wider slick. He ran a Tri-Power intake with 3 Holley 2-BBLS, excellent Bracket Car and ran exceptional 60 times for what it was.

Just saying, with tuning a Pontiac engine and chassis can be deceptive.

Tom V.

EThat's good to know, but I'm kinda referring to folks converting to aftermarket EFI from a carbureted muscle car. Thanks though.

There's always someone that's faster.

i like old cars because they are old cars, so i have old car things on my old car, like a pontiac engine, a carburetor, a distributor, 15 inch wheels, and fuzzy dice. if someone wants to convert their old car to a hybrid 4 cylinder, put 22’s on it, and listen to Adele cruising down the road while they make a Tik Tok video of it, I don’t mind. I’ll just be cranking up the Van Halen and glad it’s not my car ...

N/A my car..I actually have a buddy with a Monte Carlo with a nice LS build..he's close but way more convertor and more gear..his engine is a garage built engine..it's a nice car..basic 6.0 shortblock 5.3 heads Brian Tooley cam and spring package..it works well..
My car also has way more potential in its current state and should run 10.4s/10.5's next year and still get 16mpg

N/A? Street cars I will run them heads up at TMP is they are up for race?

I’m just so sick of the anti-LS crowd. It’s 2021, guys. We need to get over the knuckle-dragging, antiquated ideas of the past and move on. I don’t care if it’s Caitlyn Jenner or a Ram Air IV Trans Am, if someone wants to do major surgery on their prized possession, remove the most important part and replace it with something that is never gonna look right, and expect everyone else to applaud their bravery - we need to do it.

You anti-LS guys sound like a bunch of bigoted jerks!

Idk, when you add up the cost of a good carb, and a good mechanical pump to feed it, the price difference between them and F.I. isn't that bad. The benefits of a setup like a Holley Sniper far outweigh the additional money spent vs a carb imo.

Your opinion is becoming more popular. A lot of folks don't know how to tune a carburetor.

Folks in the fall of 1954 (yes, 1954, 55 Chevy's came out in fall of 1954) were poking around salvage yards looking for these "new" Chevrolet engines, in wrecked cars. Having heard the performance potential, and they were not disappointed. Same thing going on now. Nobody is putting any of the ford stuff or a hemi in their Hot Rods, yes one, here and there, but very few...
Think about how powerful a 455 inch LS engine would be......
Making a good running early small block Chevy was not difficult. Making a good running LS is easier, but all the gyrations you have to go through to convert an older vehicle, in not cheap!!!
I'll stick with the old stuff, no hate for the LS world here.

the problem i see with carbs these days is quality control on the lower end stuff. i tried a quick fuel slayer and 3310, both were not great. the black diamond SS 850 you sold me and the AED I sent you were both fantastic.

I also had good luck with a street avenger I bought new. I will say that Holley has fantastic customer service and on another quick fuel I had they rebuilt it completely at no cost to me.

If i needed a new carb (and I definitely don’t), I would feel great about going with a Holley or Quick Fuel again but I’d stay away from the cheaper stuff.

That black diamond SS 850 might be my single favorite car part ever. I can’t get over how great it runs and how well the finish has held up.

people that like LS swaps in old cars are like people that eat blue cheese. i don’t understand it, i definitely don’t trust them, but i can’t honestly say there’s anything wrong with it?

I have zero issues with LS engines..just don't like the LS swaps in classic Pontiacs.. Just my opinion a Pontiac to me is a classic Pontiac with a Pontiac engine.

Greta Thunderburger loves the LS for its 'efficient' planet saving Active Fuel Management that conserves fuel by turning the V8 into a V4. It is really a shame how the system will eventually go bad and cause the engine to burn a quart of oil per 1,000 miles, blowing blue smoke all over the cars behind you. Make sure when you swap the LS in your Pontiac that you properly re-install this amazing technology.

I believe it, but looking at how big the engine is, cubic inch vs cubic inch, it's hard to argue the power the LS puts out for it's size.

Good info. My first sales pitch when a customer wants to convert their muscle car to EFI is a Quick Fuel carb with an electric choke is going to be real close. A Q-jet will usually work better for most street applications, they just aren't commercially available.

That's similar to my 454 with minor differences. Same AFR 305 heads, Comp custom 242/248 hydraulic roller with .638 lift. My compression is only 10.2 and mine is only .030 over. I built this engine 20 years ago myself. Used heavy TRW slugs with large 5/64 ring package and standard tension oil, so I give up a little HP there too along with the smaller bore. RPM air gap out of the box with a 1" open spacer, and a 950HP also built by me, made 608 hp at 6300 and 589 tq at 4400. I've been happy with it.

That build even 20 years ago wasn't cheap. Heads alone were $3000 back then.

I would say up to a point the real difference is money spent to get it done. I see no reason I couldnt build a 400 pontiac with mild compression KRE or Edelbrock D ports, EFI and make comparable go to a Mild LS engine. Up to 550-600 go the block is solid. The advantage the LS has is the design of the block.

100% NA pump gas.
10s not only running in October mineshaft air. lol
I think some run 20 plus cubes less than you. 427 / 433 ish.