Installing BOP rear main w/ crank installed
 

Any tips or recommendations on installing a BOP one piece rear main with the crank in the block?

I have the engine out and stripped down to the shortblock, and would like to avoid disturbing anything that doesn't need to be disturbed. Should I just bite the bullet and pull the crank to install it?

I believe my block was line honed or bored because it takes a .005 under timing set which I understand may complicate a successful seal install.

I would take the crank out. You need to measure the block and the cap to determine which part of the seal needs the most attention.

I think that's probably the best approach if I want to be sure it's installed correctly. Any risk to untorquing/retorquing the mains (which are studs) and rods? Can I simply take it apart and put it back together with the new seal?

I replaced the rear seal on a 70 455 a couple of months ago with the crank and rods still in the engine. One of my brothers spoke to Butlers about it and purchased the seal from them. They actually advised how to do it. It was a two piece seal. I took the mains caps off, then gently raised the back of the crank up. Pulled the rope seal out, and cleaned the seal area. Clocked the new seal how I wanted it and seated the crank and assembled like usual. Worked fine with no problems and was surprisingly easy.

It has a two piece in it now. Based on the oil that was on it when I pulled the cap, I think my suspicions about it leaking were right. I pulled the caps off tonight and I'm not loving what I'm seeing in terms of the bearings, so it's looking like this might be a bigger project.

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1642041481

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it looks like too much permatex was used on that seal. Im not surprised that its leaking by the looks of it . You're taking a chance installing the seal with the crank in because you dont know if the block was line honed to the point where the cap becomes shallower then the block side of the main. But yeah you can do it with the crank in . I haven't been so lucky doing it with the crank in.. Looks like those bearing are put in the wrong side . The holes go to the block not the caps ..

I thought the same thing about the holes in the bearings - and the gobs of sealer around the main.

Good thing you looked into it and took the crank out. No big deal now . Just get some new bearings, put them in the way there supposed to be and definitely check those rod bearing. I cant imagine that there in good shape after running with the mains the way they are..

Good luck....

The bearings must have oil holes on the block halves too .. or the engine wouldn't have run for 10 minutes I don't think.

^^^^ My clevite's did NOT have holes on both halve's......I happened to catch that when my son was putting them in as we were about to install the 1 pc rear seal!

I got tired of the crap rope seal and constant leaking at the rear main seal. My engine is quite modded, and puts out a lot of crankcase pressure that just overpowers breathers so the oil will always push past the RMS and make a mess. So I was able to make a wire tool and carefully pick out and push the rope seal out at the top of the crank w/o loosening all the mains. Then slid in a Butler 2 pc seal. This helped, but I also added a Butler Crankcase Evac System. No more oil leaks.
IMO that the discoloration is not a issue, the crank looks OK but not the bearings.
SO new Clevites, new seal while you are at it, check the rod and main clearances with the new bearings, and your good to go.

The parting areas on the the caps look really discolored .

Digging through the forum, it looks like at some point in the past Clevite switched to having holes in both sides now.

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...71#post2949271

I could just put fresh bearings in and move along, but I'm worried this will happen again. I'll give the machine shop a call and see what he says. I'll need him to put new cam bearings in at minimum.

Rods look like this:
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1642051706
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...0&d=1642051699

what does the rod side of the bearing look like ?

Yep, some bearing sets come with holes on both halves. No big deal. He just didn't take a picture of the main bearings in the block, but I'm sure they have holes too.

Just an FYI, if going with the regular one piece or 2 piece rear main seal, I prefer to have those serrations polished a bit. Those types of seals tend to not like a rough surface and those serrations can eventually eat at the seal or at the very least wear it down over time. Possibly what contributed to your 2 piece rear main seal leak.

Will get some pics of the rod end of the bearings, but I think they were about the same as the end.

Here's what my mains look like end to end. The middle three bearings are showing more wear. Not sure what that might indicate in terms of clearances or otherwise.

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1642041976

The crank serrations might have contributed to the leak, I've heard they can be an issue. The seal on the whole is hard as a rock. I don't think whatever sealant they used was helping things. It seems to have shellacked over.

Can you show the bearings in the block as well . Im curious what they look like..

Looks like it had some trash run through it.

Are you sure it's been align honed or align bored??

Alright, here' s the carnage. Bearing caps are more roached than the tops, the rod ends are generally hammered.

Crank journals aren't too bad, but will likely need some cleanup. The crank is .010/.010 and the bearings are Clevite 77. Pretty sure I recall the machinist saying he line bored the block. It requires a .005 under timing chain. .010 is too tight, regular set is too loose.

Got some giant pics for you all this time around so you can see the full glory. I thought I'd find a little wear, but nothing like this. Is this a combo of trash in the engine and detonation? It looks bad enough to where I don't think I'd feel good about popping some new bearings in and calling it a day.

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Do you think maybe your clearances were too tight? Clevite does seems to run tight usually. Looks like the crank can be polished . Not to bad.

Depending on what you are willing to do at this point , You could give the block a good cleaning , polish the crank and get a good set of new bearings and put it back together. I personally like the speed pro 113M 3/4 groove mains . I rev my motors to 6800 to 7200 . I never have any bearing issues.

I wouldn't rush into it. Think about it for a few days.. You will figure out what you want to do.. Thats what i do anyway..

Good luck...

Might want to start with a good look at the crank.

Ouch - these much better pics point towards a minimum of polishing or turning the crank .010 and new rod/main bearings, including R&R on the cam bearings.. What we are not seeing is what is the cylinder bore wear given whatever happened in this engine that scored the bearings. (Dirty or wrong oil, what was found in the oil pan?)
If this was my engine, I would have it at a good machine shop, turn the crank, hone or bore the cylinders, new pistons/rings if necessary, and as long as it is disassembled, get it balanced. Then you have piece of mind and a reliable motor going forward. Yeah - this costs much more $$ than just bearings, but eliminates spinning a rod or main bearing, or god forbid throwing a rod. That was exactly happened to my Bro when we cut corners on his rebuild

I agree with Lust4speed. Hard to tell in the pics but that caught my eye first.

Couple of the journals also look pretty scorned to me. Much more so than journals right next to it. Enough to make me think the crank may need to be turned. But I'd have what ever it is showing up in the picture checked first, it might be done anyway.

Certainly appears the engine had some trash running through it. From the way the mains look it also gives me the impression that the main bore alignment needs to be revisited again.

Upper rod bearings do have some wear, but not as bad as some I've seen with engines that had known detonation. If this is just basically a stock engine that could most likely be dealt with in the tuning or maybe fudge around with camshaft selection a bit, but I'd be more concerned with the other problems at this point.

When I was dissecting things last night I found a tiny piece of blue material in one of the crank oiling passages. At first I thought it was gasket sealer, but this morning it clicked and I think I know what's responsible for most of the damage. Early in this engine's life the valve spring retainers destroyed most of the valve stem seals because the valve guides weren't cut down far enough. The valve stem seals were blue.

I found a lot trash in the head when this happened, but obviously not everything. I was expecting to find some of it in the oil pump pickup, but I think it was obliterated into tiny pieces and passed into the oil. I think there's even an old thread about here somewhere, the pic below shows how hammered the seals were. Totally makes sense now. That little blue piece I found in the crank looks almost exactly like the piece sitting above the right guide in the pic.

The bores aren't horrible but have some scuffing. Pistons look a little worse on the sides than I expected. A good block cleaning is obviously in order, maybe a hone, and definitely some machine work to the crank. I reused the stock rods when this was built in 2011 and always regretted it, so I'm about a step away from ordering up a stroker kit and starting over.

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Looks like a ford that has too much clearance, seen a lot of fords that look the same as this does. All the bearings, rods and mains down to copper. To repair them it always took a crank kit, with new bearings to get everything back to spec.

:2cents:

"I believe my block was line honed or bored".
Bro - you take good pics which helps analysis. Not surprised of the piston wear versus the bore wear, looks like a little piston slap was going on, more common with forged pistons being a little "loose" if the block was honed/bored and not clearanced correctly (forged pistons expand more than stock cast). And the Valve stem carnage - that is a machining and set-up oversight With bad valve seals, maybe some oil/smoke blow-by was going on?. Not at all trying to throw darts here, just some input based on experience.
You mention maybe going the Stroker route. What else is currently on/in the motor - ie carb, cam, rocker arm type and ratio, valve springs, etc? Was it all stock, or some different stuff when and if it was rebuilt?

Yeah, while I'm sure this isn't what you wanted to find or wanted to hear from others, when something like this starts it usually ends up going down a rabbit hole LOL

Probably the next worry will be how long the wait is to get the parts you want.

The valve seal issue happened in 2012. I pulled the heads, had the shop fix the guides, put new seals on, cleaned it out as best I could, put it back together and have been running it sense. Clearly the damage was done. Knowing what I know now, I should have pulled the engine back then.

The last incarnation was pretty stock - unported #16 heads, Lunati 702 Voodoo HFT, matching springs, 1.65 stamped rockers, '68 cast iron intake, '68 Q-jet, HO manifolds. 2.5" exhaust, 3.55 posi, TH400 w/13" Continental stall.

The bottom end currently has stock rods, ARP rod bolts, ARP studs, dished Ross pistons and a stock crank.

This all started because I was going to refresh the top end with the following:

Ram Air II heads
Kauffmann hydraulic roller 224/230 .502/.510 112
1.5 roller rockers
'68 Q-Jet
Repro '69 Ram Air IV intake
HO manifolds

Yep, it's a slippery slope but it always pays to do things right. It took me over 3 months to get the new cam from Kauffmann and now I'm not sure I'm even going to use it. Reminds me of the phrase you see a lot on for sale parts "Going in a different direction..."

No rush on any of this work. We're only working against my wife's patience of having an immobile car to dance around in the garage.

OK, I'm confused. The photo in post #25 shows retainer to seal interference, but you say that was corrected back in 2012?

I'm working on a '69 RAIII engine right now where a lifter link bar rivet came out and the lifter turned sideways and plowed a nice furrow into the roller cam before being pulverized into pieces. I'm seeing less carnage on the RA engine than in these pics. For whatever reason his oil filter did a much better job of catching debris. His pistons were in good shape and we had the machine shop do a very light hone to get the walls cleaned up. My machinist is usually good but this time I'm thinking he could have been a heart surgeon - bores came back perfect and were less than .001" larger. You do need some exact measurements of current bore size vs. piston skirt size to see if there was a problem.

I think the crank journal ridges won't polish out and it will need to go another ten -- and it sure looks like there is a casting flaw present where the crank shouldn't have been put back in service the last time. I agree with not seeing any detonation signs and don't really see signs that the line bore was off. I'd expect to see some block upper caps worn and some bottom caps worn, but the wear looks fairly distributed. Might again point towards a crank that isn't running true in the bore either because of being bent or ground wrong.

You want better rods, I think the crank is junk, and the pistons don't look super but could be reused -- I'd go with a stroker kit and simply hone cylinder bores to the next .005" since you should be going with a custom dish size anyway. A good machinist can also measure and give you an exact compression height for the piston pin for the order.

That's right. The engine was built in 2011, I noticed the seal issue in 2012 and fixed it then, but trash was probably floating around the engine for a while. I changed the oil frequently and generally babied the engine over the last 10 years but it didn't seem to matter.

There are probably some other issues that contributed as well, like clearances. Will take a closer look at the crank, but considering the overall shape of things it seems like a kit of fresh parts is the way to go.

I was going to ask if you had that cam already because if you decide with the stroker kit you'll want a little more cam than that. But I decided not to ask because I figured you were already in price frustration, lol.

Yep - that risk crossed my mind when I ordered the cam knowing there could be issues on the bottom end. We'll see where I end up. It's only time and money.

"Align Bore" I get nervous when its mentioned as doing it "correctly" on a Pontiac is Not the same as a Cheby.
Often the rear cap and or block is NOT "finished" where the seal is and bam you have a leak.
Also, on ANY block that is "Aligned" Bored I would plasti-gauge the mains, And Rods. I have the correct tools to check, but across
the WHOLE width of the bearing surface is a biggie.
I believe your clearances were too tight when assembled.
A Hypereutectic piston would cause you MUCH less block wear, give you much longer longevity.
>> Hesster77 << above makes a EXCELLENT point about Forged pistons.
Your rods may be ok.. make SURE the assembly is balanced, not "they ship those pistons within half a gram" I have heard a bunch of times. ( BS)
I am Not a fan of scat rods, but if they are round and true at the big end, they are cheapest forged.
Your crank should be checked.
Oil pump needs to be blueprinted and do NOT need 80 psi pump, maybe higher volume, but not high pressure.
I have seen blocks Ruined doing an "Align bore" incorrectly.......Hows the front seal workin' in the timing cover with the crank up 5 thousandths in that hole?
Usually they leak too.
Good luck with your project, hope for an inexpensive fix......But on a bright note its all Learning..

Unfortunately that short block in my opinion now needs a complete rebuild with oversized pistons again and a cut crank that is polished the right way!

Cast cranks due to there nodular carbon content need to be rotated in the right direction so these nodules do not stand up and slowly grind up the Bearing surface and itself from the grit that gets put out.

This added level of fiction also heats up the oil locally and can break down the oil film in that high load critical area!

Some shops leave the crank polishing work to the low knowledge shop helper who does not know the proper way to polish a cast crank, ( no less one that has been cut also! ) and then results like yours take place , or even way more Bearing damage from the much higher rpm and loading of a race motor.

Please also post up a few pictures of the rod caps without a Bearing in it and the back side of the Bearings that came out of it,

Here is what the Ferderal Mogul Bearing catalog instructs about polishing a cast crank.

PS.
This time use a one piece rear seal!

Also it’s no wonder that you drove the bottom of the exh retainer into the top of those positive valve guide seals with the lift of that Cam even with just stock 1.5 rockers, no less the 1.65 ratio ones!

The tops of those valve stems look beat, did a shop set those heads up for you?

Just to reiterate, the seals got trashed in 2012. At the time I was running a Crower 60916 with the 1.65 rockers. The shop set up the heads and assembled the engine. The guides were sloppy and uneven. IIRC, they had anywhere between 1/16 and 1/8 of a gap between the seal and the head. Ones that were higher obviously got more hammered. The valves have a little more history on them. They're Ferrea stainless valves that I bought for a 1998 rebuild and reused them with this build in 2011. I swapped to a Lunati 702 about 6 or 7 years ago and kept the 1.65 rockers.

Really appreciate all the insight and knowledge you all have provided. I feel like I've got the Pontiac A-Team on this.

You never stop learning on these things. A rough measurement of the bores with my cheapie HF caliper has them at 4.15 which would mean it's .030 over, correct? There should be some meat left to clean things up.

Regarding a Butler or Kauffmann stroker kit, any recommendations for what to shop for? It's another exercise in learning for me. I'm assuming I'll need -24cc pistons since I'll be running the iron RAII heads. I know they come balanced, but are all the rod and main bearing clearances set up as well?

On the flip side, is there any reason I wouldn't want to build a stroker if I'm getting all new bottom end parts anyway?

More pics of the dissection. Even after 9+ years, there are still tiny pieces of blue valve stem seal in the pickup...

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Wow pics!
Ya know, since the block was "Align" bored, I would FIRST get some new bearings and RE install Just your crank with lube and torque it down.
Then install the timing cover with a good front seal, and balancer . Don't need a chain. put small light near crank and see if you can see light at bottom side of your front seal shining on the balancer. Be tough to check the rear main seal this way with the width of the seal area.
( engine being upside down on the stand)
You MUST verify that the block will be able to run with No leaks.. You would not be happy to be back where this thread started, at a OIL Leak seal replacement.
IF ,and when, you rebuild this, or ANY Pontiac you MUST get it "Smoked"
Ask the machine shop for You to be PRESENT when the engine is smoked. You will see ANY and ALL possible Leak areas at the "smoking" session.
I have seen in person engines that were align bored and all assembled on the engine stand and FAILED a Smoke test....
Just hoping it turns out right on this build so you can enjoy it again.

I see a lot of specs of crap on the back side of those rod bearings that would have effected the local clearance, and the bearings look like they where wrongly assembled with oil on there back side.

The detail I am looking for in those rod cap and big end photos is the impression from the numbers and lettering on the back side of the bearings.

If that impression is not clearly readable in the cap or the big end, then the bearing was moving, which is not good!

The only reason to not go with a stroker other gas usage is your stock heads.
If you’d making more then enough torque you will only havd more , and if you don’t then also add a bigger Cam then your HP peak will be attained at a even lower rpm then before.

Stock iron heads used on a street type motor of 455 cid or larger are done to the point of sticking a fork in it by 5200 rpm.

I think that was ok, I can see the impression on most of the big ends.

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1642297006

Will the round port heads make use of the extra cubes and give me a little more rpm? Most of my driving is around town cruising. With the 3.55s and the TH400 I'm around 3-3500 on the freeway. However, if I'm going to build this thing from scratch again, it will see some occasional Wednesday night drag action. I've been avoiding the track (and the drive there) because of the oil leak.

Those pics are really great and show allot. IMO, you have so much damage and variable amounts of wear throughout, the safest approach would just be a complete overhaul and measurement of all the components. Just no way to determine the level of parts replacement necessary to make the engine 100% again. I can determine a couple of things from the pics. No way in IMO, that crankshaft can be used again without grinding and polishing correctly. You can polish that thing till the cows come home and all your going to get is a smoother, out of round and tapered crankshaft. So it needs attention. While it is being reconditioned, the serrations can be dealt with as well. The root cause of the majority of the damage was a dirty assembly from what I see. I also see evidence of cap grinding that was done with a "packed" grinding wheel. Meaning the wheel was not dressed properly to open the grain and it leaves a burnished finish rather than a cool, clean ground surface. I can see this on the main caps and rod caps. Possibly the cylinders can be saved with just honing for a 2618 alloy forged piston. They can run up to .006 clearance which gives you some room to work with. The cam and lifters look to be in about the best condition of what I see in the pics. Sorry for the bad news. At least you caught it before something came apart or overheated and seized. It can all be fixed. FWIW, I prefer the 2-piece BOP seal. Easier to install and I have never had one leak. Other people have had different results.

Ditto

The BLOCK , FIRST.. Can it even retain oil ???

I'm there with you. I don't think there's anything to reuse other than the bare block, assuming it's ok. Would be a shame if it's not since it's original to the car. On every build in the past I've had to compromise somewhere. I'm in a spot now where I can go slow and build this thing the way I've always wanted to. I've also picked up a ton of knowledge since the last time it was built, but I still feel like a neophyte even after 30 years with this car.

I'm really impressed what you can pick up by looking at the pics. It speaks to your experience. Obviously I'm disappointed in the outcome here, mostly because I held the shop that built this engine in high regard. I'm almost certain the death knell was when it ate the valve stem seals, which was their fault also for being sloppy with the valve guides.

Yeah, at least I got it now instead of too late. The signs were there. When it was built, the machinist told me to use 10-30, but I was never comfortable with the oil pressure at that weight so I ran 20-50 to compensate. In the back of my mind, I knew something was wrong.

At this point, it seems I should start by getting the block checked out to see if needs if it needs to be bored, then I can move ahead choosing the stroker assembly parts. Seems like a 4.25 stroke and 6.8 rods are a given, just need to figure out the specifics of the pistons.

I've got some parts coming this week and will try the test you mentioned with the flashlight. There was a good collection of grease behind the power steering pump by the fuel pump. Could have been from the front seal.

Might be a dumb question, but presuming it has been align bored, couldn't you get a thicker bearing that would put the crank back in the right place?

The other bright side to all of this is my 14 y/o son has taken a deeper interest in the car than he ever has. He was really into tearing it down and wanted to know about each part. He asked me why the cam and pushrods were in the trash today. In my mind I was like "Yes! He recognized a cam and pushrods!"

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1642396333

Even though I'm not going to use it, I went back to look at this area of the crank. It seems the pic is showing something that's not there. But, I think mgarblik is right, this thing wouldn't clean up with a polish. It's scored pretty bad, discolored in spots and even has a few divots in it. One looks like it's from a rod bolt, which could have been my doing.

Also, it's crazy how much crap these parts pick up by hanging out in my garage!

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Some thoughts after looking at these pictures. It makes a perfect case for using a by pass oil filter to remove particulate that will continue to circulate right past a full flow filter, without being removed from the oil. All the fine abrasives are going through the engine over, and over, tearing up all the tightly clearanced parts.

Perhaps the engine wasn't properly assembled when it was built, but the damage could have been minimized had the fine abrasives been removed the first pass on the by pass filter. Recirculating for miles and miles did grind up all the wear surfaces within the engine, as evidenced by the pictures.

These pictures also mirror an engine that has a lot of laps in a dirt track car. Fine abrasives enter through the air filter no matter how good the filter is, then work past the rings, and into the oil. If left in the oil, it produces results much like these pictures show. They recirculate over, and over, grinding away the wear surfaces.

If the OP hadn't decided to repair his rear main seal leak, the carnage would have continued, until likely there was a mechanical failure, or he saw evidence that the engine was producing metal filings.

I know, "By pass filters have no place in a hobby car", I heard that somewhere before. But when that one part fails, and starts producing fine grit, unknown to the owner, a better quality filter may at least be able to salvage some of the internals. It may also stave off spinning a bearing, causing catastrophic failure, namely a connecting rod through the block.

The by pass filters I use, have all the removed particulate right at the end of the filter. If there is metal, you'll see it when you change the media, it can't be avoided. If you're not cutting open your oil OEM style filters, you have no idea if there is metal accumulating in the media.

Carry on....;)

I agree 100% with Brad, but First, ... BLOCK, BLOCK, BLOCK....... Can it hold the crank where it needs to be to SEAL...after it had an "align bore" ??
>>> POST # 1... >>>> OIL LEAK...........<<<<
I see you addressed this in post #44 , and that's a relief!
A true Align bore corrects the angle of the crank to the bores typically after the bore is done to correct an out of round bore.
The goal is to "re" achieve the 90 degrees. Typically the bore plate corrects to the exhaust side of the block and therefore the crank has to get moved up.
( as I understand it and was explained to me )
If you have a 5 under chain, your block was Align Bored.
You can't put "thicker" bearing half in the block and thinner in the cap to compensate.
For the rear and front oil seals to work that crank has be dead on where it was when new. It will not take much to make it leak.
I have seen 2 Pontiac blocks leak for this same reason ( other reasons too on 1975 and 76 455 blocks) .
Even if you change Blocks, you still should get your final assembly smoked, even if you get it dynoed after.
USA Made smoke machine >> https://www.amazon.com/AutoLine-Pro-.../dp/B07JVT1NG2
WATCH smoke leak out a Crankshaft seal.( Block was align honed) >>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tObnbOfo_ko

Got my parts today and put together the front cover and balancer and .010 bearings. Looked for light and then ran some grease around the seal and checked the balancer to see where it was contacting. I couldn't see any indication that it wouldn't seal, but it's pretty tight in there. A smoke test seems like a good idea when the time comes.

I chatted with a tech from Butler this afternoon. They echoed formulabruce - make sure the block is good. Butler's rotating assemblies sound like the way to go since they're balanced and blueprinted. One thing I didn't consider was how upping the cubes would mess with the compression ratio. The Ram Air II heads on a 461 would need a ~30cc dish in the piston to keep the compression around 9.4/9.5:1. Seems like a lot of dish.

Surprisingly, he recommended practically the same cam as what I got from Kauffmann for a 400. (276/282 224/230, .503/.510, 114 vs. 278/289 224/230 112 .502/.510). He said the RAII heads with a stroker would be good for around 425hp but would have great low end torque. I was expecting a higher HP number, seems like I could get that number out of the current displacement easy.

With 461 cubes and that small of a cam, with unported stock iron heads, he's probably pretty close to his HP estimate.

It would need quite a bit more camshaft and some cylinder head work to reach closer to the 500 mark.

Maybe with the unported heads, and stepping up to a cam in the 230 @ .050 range close to RAIV spec might get you close to 1hp per CI.

lol.....the parts sitting around thing......OMFG you have no idea how much WATER I was dealing with 2 months ago trying to put the short block together!!! Every day...start with scotchbrite grey and "hone" the rust out of the cylinders, then rub on the crank journals. As we had like %400 humidity. Finally after finish mocking everything we did one more "clean" and installed crank then next day the pistons (as everything was already for FINISH ASSEMBLY.)

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