holley terminator x
 

Any guys running this in high hp applications yet? what pump? dual synch distributor is good, no crank trigger anymore?

what did holley change from the 565-107 to the 565-207

What exactly as far as higher HP applications?

Are you talking about the throttle body size and what holley says they are rated for?

I talked back and forth with Holley a few years ago and found the 650hp limiting factor for the 4150 stuff was the 4 smallish 100lbs per hour injectors. They came out with the terminator X shortly after with 4 120 pounders to fill the void, but already had an 8 injector 4150 Stealth unit that would do the job. After they wouldn't install 4 120 pounders in the stealth unit they tried to talk me into a Terminator X. I wanted a Stealth 4150.

I went against the grain and did the 8 injector 4150 stealth unit and showed they support the higher HP just fine. The car has already went 3 mph faster than it's ever been before when using the 4150 950HP carburator on an engine that made 724hp. So those 4150 Stealths certainly can support more power than Holley states, if you buy the 8 injector unit. No need for the fancy X or the 4500 style, unless that's just what you want.

Not sure how many people here can give an experienced opinion that go for the Terminator X with the 4 120 lbs injectors since there are very few people here that even push 500hp, and probably count on one hand anyone in the 600hp range. A standard Sniper would support any of that crowd.

540 cubes 15;1
900 PLUS HP

I assume you run a 4500 style carb on that one?

The Terminator 4150 throttle body likely will not flow enough physical air for a 540 cubic inch engine. Typically without modification they flow in the 830 cfm range. You can get them to around 900cfm if you bevel the lower throttle bores, knife edge the butterflies and go to countersunk set screws on the butterfly shafts. I think you would be looking at the Sniper Stealth 4500.

There is also the new offering from FiTech that is making it's way to market, called the Nemesis. https://www.subscribepage.com/fitech-nemesis-pre-order

4500 flange, 1600hp capable and designed specifically for large cid engines.

https://www.enginelabs.com/news/sema...o-big-engines/

It's the 900+ horsepower that would have me looking at the 4500 flange.

I do know the 4150 can feed some decent HP and large CI engines, more so than Holley claims.

We were finally able to hit the track with the EFI on dad's car to show something I've been saying for months. Dad's 571 ci that dyno'd with a 4150 950HP carb that actually flows 870 cfm. It made 724 hp.

Best MPH with the carb was 124.

Now with the Sniper Stealth 4150 installed best MPH was 128. A big difference for something that is supposed to flow less than the 950HP we took off. I don't buy those Holley flow numbers on the EFI stuff considering the bores are bigger and the blades are bigger than the carb we pulled off, plus there are no boosters in the way. The MPH difference bears this out.

There were many other reasons we stuck with the 4150 on this application that are too long to explain, but it shows they do work on a decent HP application, as long as you have enough injector.

I do agree though, with 900 or more HP, I'd rather use a 4500, especially if you have already dyno'd the engine with a 4500 carb and have the intake for it.

Putting this together with Term X stealth 4500. 8-100lb/hr injectors. 535CI tiger. Using the 535 lph Walbro in tank pump. Major difference between Terminator and Dominator computers are number of ins and outs. This has 4 ins and 4 outs you can program. I had a 1200PA from Fitech and i like the holley a lot better for how detailed the maps are. i think snipers are more like fitech. Easier to setup but not as tunable.
Haven't run it yet.

We run the 4150 Super Sniper Stealths with the 8 100 lbs. injectors.
The supers have extra inputs and outputs, I think 3 or 4, so they are basically set up electronically like the X and are fully tuneable with detailed maps.

I think as far as software goes, these Supers were the predecessor to the X platform with the only visual difference I've seen being the computer is in the Sniper unit rather than a seperate box.

i have the components on the way holley 12-1800 pump, term x 550-1070, and msd 2384 distributor. ill up date in few weeks hopefully

If you still run a timing chain, the crank trigger is worthwhile.

So almost 2 years since ''making this investment" i finished installing the system yesterday. I have a friend who is pontiac and HOLLEY EFI knowledgeable and after about 4 hours of tuning we are ready to take it out of the garage and try and put a load on it in the upper rpm ranges, before going to the track hopefully in the next 2 weeks.
overall the install was pretty straight forward. I am suprised i needed to source and buy a couple sensors to make it run for what they charge they could include a IAT and fuel and oil psi sensors in my opinion. My start up went well, and it fired off rather quickly but i hadnt synched the distributor properly. So I had some phasing issues.
because this motor is large and the cam is larger much of his adjustments were in ranges he says he never uses on LS stuff. different animals obviously, but there is just no vacuum on a 278-286 solid roller for the ECU to use as reference. We had to build the tables, this was the apprehensive portion of the swap for me and why it took me two years to decide to install it. Good knowledgeable people make the swap easier, i have no doubt of their value in the swap. We are on race gas now, but E85 he feels will be easily scaleable from the condtructed tables.
THe motor sounds snappy and freer, as compared to the 1050 dominator i know was choking it off. The car on the tbrake sounds damn amazing.

Ok, just to clarify, the 'Terminator X', and 'Terminator X Max' are ECUs, and are replacing the HP and Dominator ECUs.

The difference between the 'Terminator X' and the Terminator X Max' is the same difference the HP and Dominator ECUs had, the Dominator & Max have trans control and a few other features.

The old 'Terminator' tbi offering was a tbi with an HP ECU with a sticker on it. This had 4x
80lbs injectors on it.

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel...4bbl_tbi_kits/

The 'Terminator X Stealth' is the Terminator X ECU with the Stealth tbi unit. They make them in 4x 80lbs (4150), 8x 100lbs (4150), and 8x 100lbs (4500). (Think they even had 4x 100lbs setups too)

Compare HP, Dominator, Terminator X, Terminator X Max, and Sniper EFI:

(Scroll down to chart/table)

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel...erminator_efi/

Compare Sniper Offerings - Sniper, Super Sniper, Sniper Stealth, Sniper XFlow, +++:

(Scroll down to chart/table)

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel...on/sniper_efi/

I know it's confusing, but it evolved as Holley evolved and started snapping up other companies. I may have missed some or not got some of the stuff up there right, but the links are here, can look for yourself.

I didn't include 'legacy' stuff like Power Packs, Avenger, Accel DFI, Projection, or Quick Fuel stuff, but can see some of it here:

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel...on/legacy_efi/


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Back to original questions:

Unless you have other restrictions, an in-tank pump using a properly baffled tank is best. The in-tank pump assemblies can support big power. There are even dual pump in-tank modules.

I would stay away from the dual sync if you can, a crank trigger and a mag or electronic distributor as a cam sync is a much better option. Try to use hall effect pickups, they are less prone to RF/EMI.

You can use a pro billet or a hyperspark dizzy as a cam sync. Holley owns MSD, and they are starting to make 'cam sync' dizzies, but don't think they offer a Pontiac one yet. You can get them with or without the 'spark distribution cap'. There's really nothing special about them, if you have a pro billet you can just use that.

https://www.holley.com/products/igni...tors/cam_sync/

You can even do CNP, COP, whatever, and go distributorless if you want.

Difference between the 107 & the 207 is the 207 is an updated 107 with coated internals for one, definitely use the 207 if you go the dual sync route.

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Back to original questions:

Unless you have other restrictions, an in-tank pump using a properly baffled tank is best. The in-tank pump assemblies can support big power. There are even dual pump in-tank modules.

I would stay away from the dual sync if you can, a crank trigger and a mag or electronic distributor as a cam sync is a much better option. Try to use hall effect pickups, they are less prone to RF/EMI.

You can use a pro billet or a hyperspark dizzy as a cam sync. Holley owns MSD, and they are starting to make 'cam sync' dizzies, but don't think they offer a Pontiac one yet. You can get them with or without the 'spark distribution cap'. There's really nothing special about them, if you have a pro billet you can just use that.

https://www.holley.com/products/igni...tors/cam_sync/

You can even do CNP, COP, whatever, and go distributorless if you want.

Difference between the 107 & the 207 is the 207 is an updated 107 with coated internals for one, definitely use the 207 if you go the dual sync route.

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I dont have any experience with the dual sync, but I installed a hyperspark setup with my Terminator X and have been very happy with it.

There is one step beyond the directions you have to take for a hyperspark to Terminator, but there is information on it from EFISystemsPros. I recommend buying from them, their tech support is above and beyond.

Congrats on getting it up and running! I’d be curious to see your IAC settings with a cam that large. What rpm are you idling at?

It's a stealth dominator set up
I will list screenshots when we get close there's too much black magic associated w this stuff if I can help someone get a running start on the set up I will
We aren't 100% sure the iac is working properly yet that is going to be the first thing we inspect

Many times, just like a carb, you need to crack the throttle plates some. You want the IAC to work at below @10%, adjusting the plates will get you there.


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You have to do a TPS Autoset after adjusting the plates.


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Start with the base calibration file 'TBI_Stealth_4150_8Inj_454ci' and go from there.

Since it's a Stealth, you don't need a cam sync, you can lockout a pro billet or use a hyperspark (hall effect).

https://www.holley.com/products/igni...arts/565-314BK
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This is the method I used but the remote IAC set up has been a bit finicky. I’m also running a large cam (272-283 .726” int .696” ex on a 109) so I’m interested to see the settings on a similar build

Which remote IAC are you using?

And you did a TPS Autoset after?

How much timing at idle and vacuum do you have?

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Which remote IAC are you using?

And you did a TPS Autoset after?

How much timing at idle and vacuum do you have?

Do you have timing control?

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Kinsler EFI remote kit. I have it installed into the back of the Steve Morris billet elbow.

https://kinsler.com/Shop/product/rem...-flow-housing/

Yes I did tps autoset

I don’t remember the vacuum at idle but it’s not a lot. I’m on vacation right now so I don’t have my laptop handy to check a log

Timing is locked at 25* for now but I have “idle spark” enabled which gives it an 8* swing either way if needed.

I don’t want to muck up his thread with my stuff so I’ll post this in my thread as well so the discussion is over there

Cool, replied to other thread, and sure, will take a look, PM me to start a new PM-chain and will give you my email.


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We are at 30 almost like it was locked before
It ran well at that range we have done tps reset each time
I'll
Try and get some shots of how we are set up when we have the screen up next time

I am currently
Using a BOP intake and there is no port for a vac line
Does anyone know if this port next to the tpms is a vac port? It had a very small Allen plug in it it looks like it is machined inline with a galley in the throttle body
I can't find any info
Currently we are using the fuel side of the nitrous plate
And are thinking it may not be sufficient for a vacuum source

Not sure if that's a vacuum port or not, but you could pull the body and blast a little air in it, see where it comes out (or not).

I would think you would want something larger than a fuel line port on the plate, not sure what size that would be, guessing AN -4/ or .25"? Might depend on the plate?

You can pretty much drill a hole in anywhere in the plenum, tap it, and screw a fitting in for a vacuum port. Depending on what you plumb to it basically dictates the size.

A MAP sensor port I'm pretty sure is 4mm, and you want to use some type of ridged line. Emissions hose works really well, can form it with a heat gun, and there's an assortment of ends for them.

I don't think that clear hose is acceptable, but not sure, especially if there's not a lot of vacuum.

Basics suggest that depending on the source, the larger the line, the slower the response, and visa-versa, so would think you want to stay roughly in the range of the MAP sensor port size. But the size you currently have seems sufficient. Personally, I would prob cap off the one port, using only one, but that may not make a diff.

And apologize if i mix answers from other posts, I did get a little confused on who posted what.


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Ok, went back and re-read, you're running the MSD dual sync.

It is extremely important to make sure you have the inductive delay set properly. As RPMs rise, like over 3000-4000 RPM, the timing can swing a lot. Like 25-30 degrees.

Since you're not running sequential, really, you don't need a dual sync. But if that's what you have now, I guess use it. But you will notice some creep/scatter/jumping of the timing. Crank trigger is the best, those are rock steady. And the suggested 100ms is usually not even close.

Definitely don't go over say 3000 RPM or so, it won't have the timing you think it does. Always trust the timing light and use a basic tried & true type timing light.

I had this saved from a post on the Holley EFI forums about sync-ing the timing:

" Synchronizing the EFI timing (laptop) with the engine timing (timing light):
NOTE: Temporarily disable the "Idle Spark" control (in Idle Settings).
1) Turn the distributor or adjust the crank trigger to synchronize the initial (idle) timing, then lock it down.
Next, ensure timing is synchronized at higher RPM using the EFI software.
NOTE: Now use the EFI software "Enable Static Timing Set". I use a Static Timing value of 25° or 30°.
2) Momentarily rev the engine, and watch the timing advance with your timing light. It shouldn't move.
If timing advances or retards, adjust the "Inductive Delay" until the timing maintains itself.
If the ignition timing retards, increase this value. If the timing advances, decrease this value.

SUMMARY: The initial (idle) timing is synchronized by turning the distributor or adjusting the crank trigger and locking it down. The timing at higher RPM is synchronized by adjusting the Inductive Delay in the EFI software. The first synchronization is physical, and the second synchronization is electronic (Inductive Delay). Believe the timing light above all else, it's always the real timing (if there's a discrepancy). When finished, the timing as viewed on the laptop, should match what you see with the timing light, at all RPM.
Once the ignition timing is fully synchronized, the Timing Table can be tuned for each application."



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Thank you for the input
I believe we have the timing synched as we followed the procedure and the timing seems rock steady w the light

I spoke w the Holley dealer that I got the system
From
And he said that port not my nos plumbing is adequate in his opinion
So we put a 1/16" pipe thread in it
Just talked to my bud Wednesday we are going to flush out the details
And I'll
Get you guys some
Pics of where we end up on the charts

You mentioned E85, so this may be of some interest to you:

"The stoichiometric air fuel ratio of gasoline ranges from approximately 14.5 to 15.0 but is generally considered to be 14.7. Accordingly, the stoichiometric air fuel ratio of a mix of 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline is 9.972:1, while the ratio for a mix of 51% ethanol, 49% gasoline is 12.15:1."

Some of the Holley EFI training suggests running AFRs around 14.7, but on bigger displacement and larger cams, I strongly suggest going fatter. Some I've seen run like 13.4-13.8 at idle, and that's for gas.

So 9.972 is 67.83% of 14.7, can round to 67.5%. So you can offset the base fuel map by plus 32.5% .

You can highlight the whole table, right-click, select 'Offset Selected', and enter %32.5 in the box and hit 'OK'.

That AFR table from that example config file I posted above has some 'safe' AFR numbers in there for gas and posted the example table. You can pick a section that has all the same values, determine what 67.5% is of that value, and offset those cells by the calculated value.

Those are just suggestions, I'm not that familiar with E85, but it sounds right math for a 'safe' AFR table and base fuel map.

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Looking at the 'Meth Twin Turbo' global file example under 'Custom Cals' > 'Racing', the approach above sounds about right:

This is the AFR table for that global file.

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Ok lots learned Lots more to learn
Here are some screenshots if they help someone else this is the current state we need to drive it or out a load on it to get up into higher ranges and see where it's at but system is functioning as it should it seems

Second batch
 

Screen shots

Third

So you're running gas right now, not E85, correct?

Can you post one of your ignition setup under the ECU section?

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Curious, what is your idle rpm?

My car idles between 1100-1175 rpm with a 272-283 .726” int .696” ex on a 109 LS. Once it’s warm it goes up to 1350 rpm which is clearly something I need to address in the software but I never seem to have the free time. Your cam is larger so I was curious where yours landed.

The dreaded double post

We set it at 1300 for time being It manipulates itself where there is no drop when it's put into
Gear which is amazing but odd lol
I have a video to post but it's too
Large what's the secret nowadays

Load it to youtube and post a link.


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https://youtu.be/h0JEwLMsPUI?si=gTaywrfniXhl3Qht

ok lets try this. its snappy enough

Ok we made it to the track yesterday and our initial tune did not work until we happened to catch the fiberglass hood sucking down about 2" and just about completely choking out the air flow. In the garage w hood open we never would have seen it, 4 horrible choppy in an out passes while looking at the dash and afr did not reveal it. Only trying to footbrake it to 3500 in the pits revealed the hood flexing. I just caught it out of corner of my eye
Very humbling and if we had better roads near my house it surely would have been discovered at home. Oh well. We threw the kitchen sink at it before determining it really had nothing to do w the efi. The data log showed multiple lean rich swings in milliseconds, the data log on this type of unit is worth the investment alone. But sometimes it's the simple things and like I said very humbling but in the end it was a good outing.

5th and 6th passes were both 9 second passes w conservative shift points and afr exactly
Where we wanted. Correction is in the 1-2% range above 4000 rpm so we are close and will be able to push it a little harder next week at Norwalk
However we do have an issue one of you guys may be able to help with
We cannot get the two step to work off the efii. We are using the correct input, it is the wht wire w black stripe on the aux input plug. We have the menu populated, multiple Rpm's have been tried, it shows as though it's available, but it does not light up as though its active, the wire is def getting voltage, we have tried with engine running as research has shown it will
Only
Be active while running and still
No dice.
I will try and get some pics of the menus this morn
We are thinking it may not be accurate enough w the dual synch and may need a crank trigger to be available but have not confirmed that yet
Th als for the input

https://youtu.be/P17EnOlgqU0?si=i8TaRvv3oicJqDPE
https://youtu.be/MrxIcLZQrok?si=QYnAmXw9GbNrheei

Did you do the pin map as well as create the input?

Are you using the handheld to set the RPM limit or via the software only?

You need to make sure it's enabled, either via the handheld or software.

This might help:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ4S1ZiCL24


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we may have found it. My paperwork says wht with black wire, current paperwork/onlie says wht with blue. I hope it is that simple. but my bud has been able toe make it go "active" toggling between coil on plug ls style, that is why he thinks it may be crank trigger related.
currently we have only done it thru the software, infact i put a holley pro dash in it and have the hand held in a box because the hand held and a laptop cannot be simulataneously hooked up without causing issues.

So norwalk was a success for us. We made our normal 8 passes (lol) because i am not a great driver. Car went a best of 9.69 which is just a touch slower then last year with the 1050 there was a pretty healthy head wind friday and saturday. We made a series of small adjustments from that ''best'' pass which i think occurred late friday or first pass saturday.
car kept getting slightly slower which i thought was headwind but it turned out we were slowing it down making it a bit leaner up top. First round sunday morning we went back to the ''Good tune from the 9.69 pass and the car picked up everywhere. my competitor made a much closer pass. We now have confirmed the car wants more fuel even in 3000 ft DA.
we got the two step working thanks Ed Page! and we will move to the next step and install the nitrous, the converter is super tight. even leaving at 5200 car runs a 1.39 60' i didnt think the .03 worth the 1400 rpm so we lowered it down to 4400 and it ran consistent 1.41-42. i dont want to change converters yet so hopefully this will get it in the high 1.2x and maybe an 8 sec pass on a 200 shot. ill try and upload a video from norwalk in a bit

https://youtu.be/wPEC9r3biF0?si=oLIaaNUMOpzKh0SS