Amazement
 

I am constantly amazed by folks who post up questions as to how much power there new build will make!

Many of these builds are very high Dollar builds with aftermarket blocks , forged cranks and high port or wide port heads, the needed intake manifold and 1100 cfm or better carb, yet it seams these folks don’t believe what there engine builder has told them the motor will make, or they choose to not spend what it takes for even a cheap computer engine analyzer program to answer there own questions!

Mine makes more power than I could ask for. I am pretty sure I asked this question before but only as a fun topic. My machinist and Paul Carter did my building. All I know is its impossible to put that power to the pavement on street tires.

I think it's just a fun exercise for many people and harmless. It's the total drivetrain package that makes for a really nice street car. Bragging rites are fun I guess, but in my case at least, I want an engine that has great response, some idle quality, won't overheat, can run on pump gas, starts easily hot, and can roast the tires at will cruising in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd gear. With a stock chassis, and drum brakes, that's about 500 HP in my estimation. Much more than that, your breaking stuff all the time.

Excitement and curiosity almost always gets the best of us all. Honestly alot of people have to settle on an engine builder that's located in their area. Often times that builder may be adequate for the machining processes but not have the expertise and experience with a certain make/model engine.

I think it's alright to post about an engine build and possibly gain insight on if its gonna make the power it should or if it will be a mismatched disappointment.

Of course when they post about their engine and combination they get to hear 10% congratulate them on the build and 90% tell them where they are going wrong.

I agree with all that but... You can do all that with WAY less than 500hp! That's a lot of ponies. THink about how many 350 pontiacs are out there. A well built and geared 4bbl dual exhaust 350 with any thing above stock cam will do all that. OK maybe not 3rd gear. And be lots of fun stop light to stop light.

But 500hp sounds like a lot of fun!!

Probably true of your talking wheel HP. I should have said 500 flywheel HP. Also should have mentioned my car is right at 2 tons. (62 Catalina). With the big 11" 8 lug drum brakes, I should be OK for a few stops before they are overheated. The 9.3" ring gear stock rear will be fine. The weak link in my deal will be the Muncie 4-speed. That's the item that will blow to pieces when really overloaded. Once I destroy that, I will move on to a much stronger 5-speed if funds are available.

As Ken Crocie stated about making 500HP, "It's like falling off a log".


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When at Westec working with Steve,he has a formula he uses for street engines he has arrived at over years and hundreds of engines of all brands.Moderate hipo street engines withcams in the 230-240 range and running on 91 pump gas his dart goes to 1.25 HP per CI.For cams in the 250-260 range he moves up to 1.5 HP per CI.Not gosple but will get you in the hunt.Did not talk about full race engines.FWIW,Tom

So everyone with a build going on should just keep quiet and not share? I always viewed it as fun, who can come close to the dyno results but maybe not? I'd bet 99% of the threads was about having fun guessing and had nothing to do with questioning the builder or not having some software program.

What does that even mean.

I have started those threads many times over the years on my RA V and the stroker 301 engines.Tom

It means with the parts available today, any 16 year old kid can walk into Summit with his parents credit card and walk out with a shopping cart of bolts ons that’ll make 500HP on just about anything. It used to be a lot tougher, especially if you didn’t have a big block Chevy.

As was mentioned. I think it's just a fun exercise. As most if not all these engines end up on the dyno. Another thing that is not mentioned is, some of you folks do this for a living and us grunts look to you for opinions. That in itself is a compliment to people that reply. just saying.

Got it.

People should build cars to their own liking. There is no comparison in drivability and horsepower against the newer vehicles especially with AWD in the mix.

If 400hp makes their build adequate that's great.... 600hp congratulations.

I own 3 cars.

1930 ford, 1000whp<<<complete waste and mistake
2002 z06 vette, 700whp<<< fast reliable, daily driven but scared to break something even though it's fully built.
And My 70 GTO which I will just shoot for 450ish hp when the time comes. I honestly have more fun and enjoyment out of lower hp vehicles

[QUOTE=TCSGTO;6359051]It means with the parts available today, any 16 year old kid can walk into Summit with his parents credit card and walk out with a shopping cart of bolts ons that’ll make 500HP on just about anything. It used to be a lot tougher, especially if you didn’t have a big block Chevy.[/QUOTE

TCS,
Damn, you got that thing pulling!

That a road paver grind?

Running them on a dyno is always a good idea anyway. Why guess. Not really for bragging rights but for many other reasons. Dial in a timing curve that works, check for leaks, break in camshafts and ring packages properly while monitoring everything in a controlled environment. If there is a problem it's a hell of a lot easier to deal with now before it goes in the car. Especially if it requires machine work, you're already at the shop!!

There are many good reasons to dyno an engine. These days with the cost of a good proper engine build surpassing as much as $10,000 for moderate stuff, it really makes a dyno session a no brainer.

True, You can even do it with stock parts (meaning OEM heads and intakes)

agree, Its just a fun exercise.

quite a few race experts here and their experience on expensive dyno's make em plenty credible. fun to get a bragging right to say "well -big name guy- says it makes around 5,000 hp" lol, at least I feel that way.

I recall Pete McCarthy stated in a magazine talking about street power "If I don't have enough power to shred the tread off a recap I'm just not happy" thats me to tee! now that i'm older I know my niche I want, burn a lotta rubber and run in the low 12's. where iv'e usually been.

on another note though, seems a lotta race questions/racer replies in the "street" section. i'm guilty of that, but I enjoy it when a been there done that guru replies. info you can take to the bank!

I would like to say thanks to post 14 for being 100% honest in his reply because this also the type of reply I was looking for !

Thats pretty much my definition of fun too, I dont spend much time at the dragstrip anymore because its a big dollar game that I am not willing to play anymore.

After going full circle, I came to the conclusion that I have the most fun with stick shifted 200-500hp cars in the streets...

On a motorcycle? anything with two wheels and an engine no matter the HP, im a happy camper.

Its funny how when I was 20 I wasn't happy until my ride was entirely built of go fast and machined/fabricated aluminum parts...

...Now I get excited by a decently quick stock looking old car/motorcycle with a nice patina...!

Must be wisdom or age .

Peter

[QUOTE=mchell;6359056]Yes, Road Paver. Maybe not the best choice for max power in this engine but it makes enough and cruises and drives around almost like a stocker.

Agreed,I’ve only had 2 engines I built put on a dyno and other than a couple of twists of the distributor no real tuning was done. Getting the power curve and numbers is nice but the peace of mind knowing it isn’t going to fly apart or leak when it goes in the car is more than worth it.
The in car tune is going to be different than the engine dyno tune anyway.

Are there any engine analyzer programs for Macs?

I’m continually amazed at folks who make posts like this. Ones motivation is the business of the individual only. Ones choice is to bypass the title “what will it make”...

I don't know a lot about Macs. But I do know that I have people running my Windows software of a Macs using / through parallels desktop (virtual machine).

Stan

In addition to the points Formulajones brings up in post #16 the engine dyno sheet is also helpful with a custom torque converter built for your specific combination. My first was about 25 years ago when I called Marv Ripes at A-1 Automatic Transmissions, he was well known in the industry. As a consultant the first thing he asked was if I had a dyno sheet. I bought two from him. Similar situation with custom units at Hughes Performance, Continental and most recently at UCC.
All found the dyno sheet helpful.


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I'm building a 494 ci that is 4.32" x 4.21" stroke with SD CNC ported Eddy heart shaped chamber that flow 336 cfm, Bullet 235/241 at 0.50" HR cam, 0.632" lift, RPM intake with a 1" spacer and a 850 cfm carb, what do you think it will make?

You're not allowed to ask that. :D

I would more or less agree with Ken on this with a few little modifications. Yes it is certainly MUCH easier to make MUCH more HP with LESS effort if your willing to change cylinder heads on our old V-8's. The heads were the choke point on most, and Pontiac's were far from the worst. I oversee a wide variety of engine builds in my class every year. My observation, rather than a HP number is HP per inch since many different platforms are used. Making less than 1 HP per cubic inch is a failure IMO, unless using stock un-touched heads and doing a restoration type rebuild. The 1 HP per inch used to be a Detroit goal, and the handful of engines that made or exceeded it were revered as "super engines". 327-375 HP, 454-450 HP 421 SD, 426 Hemi, 350-370 HP are a few examples. Almost any iron head V-8 can get there with mild head work and the right cam and a decent induction system. 1.25 HP per inch is pretty easy with a modern aluminum replacement head and little else.

Oops.

As a less experienced person, it is nice run your specs by people who know more and can get you into a ballpark of what you're trying to do with your motor and alert you to any big mistakes you might be making. I found that really helpful. I am having my motor dyno'd. Like Formulajones said, I really like the idea of having the guy who built it run it in and make sure there are no obvious initial problems as the main benefit. But, it's also nice to know what your combo made rather than a guess.

I asked my builder what he thinks my motor will make and he won't make a prediction. I understand where he's coming from. If he predicts a certain number and you don't get there then there's disappointment and maybe even blame.

The short block is done and it should be on the dyno within the next 2 weeks. Just for fun, before it goes on the dyno, I'm gonna post my final specs and let anyone who wants make an estimate. I'm gonna be there for the final pulls so I should be able to get some video of it too.

a dent in a factory hood!

I'm always interested in hearing real world results from any pump gas build. Timeslip or dyno with no BS speculation. Gives a great starting point for people shooting for a similar level of power

i can report that my e-head, old faithful, rpm with quick fuel 850 build in 65 gto hardtop with a muncie and 3.55 gears gives me a huge stiffy. will post a thread with plenty of stiffy pics if anyone is interested.

"...any 16 year old kid can walk into Summit with his parents credit card and walk out with a shopping cart of bolts ons that’ll make 500HP"

That brought a smile to my face. Fun story, about 22 years ago I befriended a young kid that was 15 years old working at McDonalds. At 16 he bought his first car, a Firebird and then went to work part time for my engine builder. His first engine was 4.250" stroke, un-ported Edelbrock heads, Crower 236 degree hyd flat tappet cam, Performer RPM intake, 750 vac. sec Holley carb and headers. On the dyno it made 509.2 HP at 5200 rpm. And his mother paid for the dyno session as a HS graduation present. No parents credit card though.... he paid for it working at the engine shop.

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Trust me nobody wants to see that. Congrats on your build, though. Sounds like you accomplished your goal.

PM sent.

People like to make educated guesses. We spend a lot of money on this stuff , so we like to talk about it, big deal.
And not everyone has a "engine builder". Some do it themselves.

I'm impressed at how some folks post on EVERY thread, and demand respect, are happy to critique the posts of others but cannot use or spell simple words correctly.
How can I take advise from, (or give respect to) someone who cant use or spell the words "Seams" or "There" (or spell dozens of other simple words) correctly?
I once asked about wheel lugs.
Steve posted that I was lazy and wasting bandwidth.
Is this thread wasting bandwidth?

too many feelings in this thread. everyone needs to go do a few burnouts and knock back a few cold ones!

My 4.350x4.21 Eddy heads maybe a click more porting Victor 850 Demon 268/272 solid roller made 690 HP. My 0.030 455 with a HFT 239/247 @ 0.050 Torker II 850 Holley is about 550-570 based on mph, conservative dyno was only 525.

So you should be in between.

FWIW the 455 on the street even on sticky DOT tires if you hit it in a turn it will break them loose real easy and you can get sideways!

I'm going to install a cam dot-to-dot just because I can. [evil laughter] :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nz8ssH7LiB0

Hmm, is it advise or advice?
Just asking for a friend at the spelling and grammar police.

Smart builder. There is an additional problem that the engine builder has to put up with. Every small block Chevy motor at a car show has in excess of 500 horsepower because that's what they wanted and that's what they were told. Very safe because the owner won't ever get near a dyno and won't ever race the car. Then the Pontiac guy wants "500 horsepower" since his Chevy friend has that.

Right now with aluminum heads we can go about 425 horsepower with a 400 or about 450 horsepower with a 455 and have a totally stock sounding and acting engine running on 91 octane. It will be a pussy cat at that level but still fry the tires down the block. From there on up as horsepower increases there continues to be an increasing loss of drivability as horsepower continues to climb. End result of loosing drivability is comparable to one's pain threshold, some people will tolerate much more than others. Some say they want 500 horsepower but also want the driving experience to be closer to what they have with their Honda Accord. For those that don't mind the sacrifices, we now have the aftermarket parts to achieve whatever level they want.

Anymore, I hear "500 horsepower" and my reaction is about the same as hearing fingernails down a blackboard.

Oh common Mick, it's not that bad is it? :D

:rant:

:pound:

What's the 425 hp 400 cubic inch receipe ?

Edelbrocks head, cam and intake package.

Yep, "as-cast" aluminum heads and a mild roller cam in the 226/234 range with around .560 lift with a Performer RPM or similar manifold. Won't sound any different than a 400 with a flat tappet 068 cam and be 100% streetable.