If You run Diesel Oil or Racing Oil in Your Pontiac, You May Want to Read This....
 

Article in Motor Trend on the benefits (or lack there of) on running high ZDDP diesel motor oil in your car:

"Is Diesel Motor Oil the Right Choice for a Gasoline Engine?"

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/di...765D12CFD72326

I never thought it was a good idea, but after reading this, I understand it's really a bad idea.

And it's not just the difference in the kind and amount of ZDDP, it's also the amount of anti-foaming agents. The needs are different between gas and diesel.

And beyond that, there is a difference in the amount of detergent and dispersants between gas and diesel.

It's a quick easy read with a lot of good info.

Always smile at these Hot Rod car type Magazine experts opinions.

15 years isn't chit in doing the job in oil research.

I was told 20 years ago by the BP Oil company (Oil EXPERT) who supported us at
Ford Research that the 15/40 oils would be just fine with my GTO when running a flat tappet camshaft. I haven't had one issue in 20 years of using the oil. 1350 PPM of Zinc.

So do I believe a Magazine Writer who writes for a car magazine or a expert with 30+
years of oil knowledge at the times whose company actually make oil products.

I will stick with what I have for the last 20 years. I bought the oil from a third party supplier Farm Fleet. Diesel engines love the stuff and the engines see very high crank loading.

Tom V.

We will not talk today about the fuels and lubricants classes I have taken in the past.

Thanks for posting. Being a thread on the topic of motor oil, I'm sure it will bring about a spirited discussion. :) I recently bought about 3 oil changes worth of Lucas Hot Rod & Classic w/ZDDP oil for my '66.

So I read the short article link posted, good information, especially about talking to a oil tech about what you have, and what they recommend to use after you give them the parameters of your combination, and usage of the engine, and conditions of the usage. Since I used to have a Pennzoil service station, I have found it invaluable to call their tech line to see what their recommendation is when I'm having a lubrication problem, or a recommendation.

I always run diesel oil in my diesels, and gasoline oil in my gas vehicles. There is a reason the oil companies offer oils for each type of engine, and fuel types. There is also a reason that the manufacturers specify what types of oil to use in their products.

The most important thing is to keep the oil clean, which I have thoroughly covered on this forum. The cleanliness of the oil will extend engine life, and minimize wear more so, than what brand, and type of oil that you're using. Yep, by pass filters.

I've posted before that too much ZDDP, can be as harmful as not enough, but I don't know if anyone has followed up. Most people think more is better, and too much is just right, that however isn't how it works in reality.

No matter which engine I have, I also use whatever full synthetic oil I can get for the usage of the engine I'm servicing. Nothing gasoline engine have is under 140,000 miles, The wife's car is the highest milage with 325,000 on it, bought the car brand new in 2008, the engine is all original. She is currently in Alabama because her father just had open heart surgery, and will be returning back to Ohio at the end of the week about 1600 miles round trip.

My trucks are all between 200,000 and 300,000 miles, I must have found an oil and filter program that works pretty well, to get engine longevity like that.

I could see crotch rocket oil vs...


But, a Pontiac v8?

In 20 years I have never had ONE FAILURE using that 15W40 "diesel" oil and my Solid Flat Tappet camshafts always looked like they were brand new when I did stuff where the intake and valley pan was removed.

But do whatever you want, IT IS YOUR ENGINE!!!

Tom V.

I read through it. It kind of crack me up. Most my Diesels run more RPM’s continuously than most of my gas engines… Hmm???….Most diesel oil is not that high on zinc, maybe an average of 600-900 these days. That is high compared to what, an oil that will wipe a flat tappet cam before the next oil change?

Is there someone somewhere running diesel oil in their new direct injected gasoline engine causing preignition?

Very good question Jay.

Tom V.

Define "Diesel oil'.

Most of the so-called "Diesel oils" I've seen carry dual certification--Compression ignition (diesel) and Spark ignition (gasoline). That said, I can see that a product formulated for low rpm may not be optimum for an engine typically running a different fuel--and fueling strategy--at higher RPM.

Example:
https://rotella.shell.com/en_us/prod...dHRlci9lbl91cw
"Shell Rotella® T6 Multi-Vehicle 5W-30 is able to meet both API CK-4 and SN performance standards." (My emphasis.)

Lake Speed, Jr. is not a "Hot Rod car type Magazine expert"; he's got actual credentials in lubrication engineering, and an extensive background in racing/high performance if for no other reason than his dad, Lake Speed (Sr.?) was a big deal in Karting and NASCAR before it became NAPCAR. Jr. used to be with Driven Oil, now with Total Seal piston rings. I do not immediately discount his expertise even if none of the engines I build are radical enough to need specialized oil.

I maintain that the primary reason for all the crying over "ZDDP" was actually an excuse to deny warranty claims by cam/lifter suppliers who switched from quality lifters to cheap-junk imported lifters. Rather than acknowledge that they were selling crappy Chinese lifters with soft bottoms, they blamed the EPA for reducing ZDDP levels in motor oil as it poisons the catalytic converter over time (and especially with heavy oil burning!) Magazines picked up on this, and the whole ZDDP scare became full-blown.

It also created the market for "Hot Roddy high-ZDDP" and "Break-In" oils that gave Driven and various others a reason for existence. Big-name-brand oil companies were already selling "race" oils, but they weren't smart enough to create a demand for "break-in" oil. To paraphrase Jr., we all know that freshly-built engines need to "break in", and that a fair amount of wear occurs during this "breaking-in". The final "honing fluid" your engine sees is the "break in" oil. Break-in oil is formulated for just that purpose.

Lake Speed Jr. via Total Seal and Rottler has numerous Youtube videos on cylinder honing/ring seating/break-in; they're probably not applicable for the few engines coming out of my home-shop, but they're entertaining and a peek at the state-of-the-art for racing.

Lake Speed Jr educational background is in business and marketing FWIW

Tom

Your career as an engineer for FoMoCo lasted many years. When you hit 15 years with them, were you knowledgeable in your field? Were you considered an expert in certain areas? I'm sure you were, and deserved the recognition.

As to advice given to you 20 years ago - has technology change in 20 years? Most assuredly yes as change is a constant.

The article was not written by a "magazine writer" as you claim, it was written by a "certified lubrication expert" for a magazine. Facts matter.

Lack of proper detergents is why I got away from desiel oils in a gas engine decades ago. Same reason I stopped using the Valvoline racing oils too.
Oils like that need more frequent change intervals. I sure hope guys using it are not trying to extend change intervals. Nevermind zddp, people forget about the rest of the additive package.

Speaking of which, how many here actually send in used oil samples for an oil analysis to actually know for sure what that oil is doing for you??

I don’t know of any method better than sending the oil off for an oil analysis when your concerned about it doing it’s job.

We test oil when nessarry. Not every time. I think it is a good practice. Some of our equipment and vehicles have a gazzillion hours or miles on it, I know it is shot, and don’t an oil analysis to reaffirm that.

My concern with oils is always when new oil formulation gets changed to create a new issue. When Diesels oils started getting formulated for teir4 emissions equipment there started to be a lot of reformulations in oils used for Diesels. Finding a good mix of detergents and wear additive packages generally there seem to be trade offs. The oil analysis will tell you if you picked the right trade offs, and how long the oil change intervals are, plus if it is doing it’s job. Only problem is if you pick poorly on oil you may not make it to that oil change analysis with flat tappet stuff right now.

Good Question: I put in 7 years in Emissions and F.E. and by the 7th year I was representing the Company in ALL Emissions actual testing at the EPA in
Ann Arbor Michigan.

I put in 8 Years, after that, working for Truck Operations and was the "go to guy" for and Emissions & F.E. testing as related to Truck Vehicles. Both Track Testing and Dyno Cert Testing. I hired in as a Pay Grade 6 (most hired in as a Pay Grade 5 and by 15 years was the highest pay grade (8) that a normal Engineer achieves (without going to management) vs engineering.

So 15 years experience plus my Holley Experience, I was the "Go-To Guy.

Mind you 39 years is a long time to work for one company.

A Certified person just means they can sign off on some testing, It does not
mean that they are are an EXPERT in the subject. Most in a field have to be
"certified" to observe given testing as a Witness. Nothing more.

So #1 .... 15 years you can be considered to be an expert in a given field.

#2 Certified just means you can sign documents which I did for my company
when we tested at the EPA.

#3 As far as advice, we are talking about an engine that has not been sold in many years (Pontiac). I wanted a durable 455 engine for my 64 GTO.
The BP Oil Technical Specialist gave me the info for that engine and its parts.

#4 As TCSGTO mentioned Lake Speed Jr's educational background is in business and marketing...

My advisor at BP WAS an Certified Engineer, A Big 3 Engineering Representative working in Research, not writing magazine articles.

Hope this helps you out on the DIFFERENCE in the two occupations and education required. If I needed a article written I would probably listen to him.

Tom V.

I worked at Chevron gas station when my last 2 years of college. I bought Chevron DELO for $8 dollars a case of 24. I changed oil and filter every 2 months on my 67 Catalina. I had that car for 12 years and you could eat off the inside of the valve cover.

Yes oil formulations changing has been going on for a long time and is hard to keep up with. Filter quality has as well.

Your last sentence is what I ran into years ago using Valvoline race oil. I was doing the typical 3000 mile intervals that was always preached at the time, and when I learned about oil analysis to my surprise I also found out that oil wasn't doing the job at those intervals. Rather than find out what that interval was I decided to change up the oil program and find something that worked as intended and lasted a decent oil change interval without harm.

I suspect with frequent oil changes these oils would work okay but I just have too many cars for that type of regimen.

As you stated once you find an oil and filter that suits your needs and is doing it's job, there really is no need for oil analysis after that. I can only think of two reasons you'd want to. One, if you suspect a problem and want to narrow down the root cause. Two, you've changed your routine, or your oil or filter brands and need to make sure it's still doing as intended. Otherwise it's not a necessary process that you have to spend a bunch of money on.
On that note, I haven't done it in years simply because I found what is working for me and haven't changed my routine since, nor had any type of issue.

give me that wonderful stuff...

A lot of good advice there vs opinions from a a magazine guy.

I will stick with what I have been doing for many years, Oil designed for flat tappet camshafts and the valvetrain loads MY engine sees.
I do stuff for a reason.

(No issues in 30+ years.)

Tom V.

I read the article and found it interesting but less than definitive. Anytime I see something complex simplified to that level, I tend to be skeptical.

In the article, the conclusions about "primary vs secondary ZDDP" was an example of something I wasn't aware of. Being ignorant, I decided to dig one layer deeper on just that topic. As expected, I think the real answer is "it depends".. Here is an interesting discussion with a lot of insight into the reality of ZDDP types and tradeoffs with other additives:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/th...y-zddp.295359/

It's not simple enough to make a broad sweep IMO.

I've been running Rotella or Delo in my flat tappet cars since 2002. Many tens of thousands of miles. When I pulled the engine in my '67 GTO in 2011 after a decade of using Rotella to install a rear main seal and replace the core plugs, the inside of the engine looked like new. Bearings showed no visible wear. Engine had 80,000+ miles on it since I last rebuilt it. Ten years later, still uses no oil, leaks no oil, and runs great. Same with the '65 GTO, '61 Corvette, and '83 Toyota 4x4. Decades of use and tens of thousands of miles of trouble-free service and counting.

When we raced the Grocery Getter and Boss Bird, we were sponsored by Valvoline. One of the cool things about that was we were assigned a senior chemical engineer at Ashland Oil, (parent company) to work with us. He did mention more than once the CORRECT amount of ZDDP was the important factor in engine wear, not just putting a huge amount in there. He wanted us to run their production lubricants, although he was willing to custom blend race oils for us if needed. It never was. In the little article, I like the statement about running the correct oil for the application. But in reality, with most of our Pontiacs, the miles they are driven, and the fairly low load and RPM they see, any quality oil, kept clean and changed will work just fine after break-in. JMO

Many of my hot rods I've owned for 40 years with flat tappet cams I've run Valvoline 10-40 and never an issue. My Fiat Spider, I ran Rotella diesel 15-40 oil, as that is what the Fiat guys push. My Pontiac I started with 10-40 Brad Penn and then switched to Driven 10-40, since that is what my engine builder suggested. I asked why the Driven oil stays so clean looking compared to my Valvoline? He said the Valvoline type oils keep contaminants suspended in oil, while Drive oil, the contaminants lay in the bottom of oil pan. I learn new things on oil here and other places I had no idea about. I'm no engineer.

I still have about 30 of the white "Oil Analysis" kits that we used to have shipped to the BP Engineers. I still keep bare Valve Guides in the containers today. Once a month all 6 engines oil was sampled and sent to BP for our durability engines.

Tom V.

Haven’t read all these posts but I will say I’ve run diesel oil in my turbocharged 2 bolt main, cast factory crank, eagle rods Pontiac running 9s since I built this engine in about 2006 was the last freshen to check bearings. It’s still running strong today and I haven’t even changed a spark plug in it.
So I feel the diesel oil has done pretty well for me so far.

Ran rotella T most of the time.

I do not thinks its that big a deal. The most important thing about your oil is picking one with the right viscosity for your needs and changing it regularly. I have run all kinds of oils. No oil is going to make or break you. Run Dello a lot these days.
Never hurt a engine. They make oils rated for gas and diesel engines too.
Years ago we broke in cams with non detergent 30T and EOS or STP all over the cam. never had a issue.
Maybe the big problem is not zinc, its the butter lifters they are selling us.

I have run 15/40 diesel oils for the past twenty years. using flat solid and flat hydraulic cams. never any problems.

461 kauffman heads full roller 500hp strong since 2010 rotella T5 10/30 still spinning.

Seems to be a lot of Diesel Oil users using the 15/40 oil in their flat tappet engines
had zero issues over many years of usage.

I will continue to go by Excellent Technical Advice, and Facts (vs opinions or advertisements).

Tom V.

Tom

You appear to claim that opinions given in support of using oil (see above) designed for diesel engines is fact.

I posted this for informational purposes, not to piss anyone off. It isn't an advertisement or an opinion. It's an article about oil from someone who's job it is to formulate oil.

You can choose to use whatever oil you want.

I've never intermingled the two oils by usage, and have had excellent longevity of my own engines.

I really don't think a car that sees 10,000 miles in 10 years is going to show up minor differences in chemistry because in that 10,000 miles it's probably had at least 10 oil changes. Take that oil and run it in a daily driver at 6,000-10,000 mile oil changes, and it's possible you'll see disadvantages to running it long term, over the life of a car.

They make different oils for a reason, if one oil covered many uses adequately, then why would the manufacturers make different oils, for different applications?

It's the exact same argument I get if I mention by pass oil filters, that the oil is usually run low miles before it's changed, so in their mind, better filtration isn't necessary. I don't agree with that assessment, but although it's not as efficient as superior filtration. Frequent oil changes are going to flush the sump of the particulate that is left in the oil that will physically keep passing through a conventional full flow filter, but would be caught on the first pass with a by pass filter.

In my mind the oil type/brand needs to be the correct viscosity, have a good additive package, and have a good detergent package. The filtration to a standard much finer than the OEM system is capable of makes more difference than what type/brand of oil you're running. Especially if you're changing it a 1000 mile intervals.

Because my father was a mechanic, and started wrenching back before every car had a oil filter, the oil change intervals were 1000 miles, even after the modern oils and filters were commonplace, Dad continued to change oil and filters every 1000 miles, and the engines were clean as could be, because of the constant flushing with fresh oil.

I however don't like changing oil frequently, and think it's a waste of time and money. My alternative is a by pass oil filter, which is superior to the 1000 mile oil changes, and I run my oil for 30-40,000 miles and as much as 5 year intervals. There is definitely more than one way to get engine longevity, but flushing it with fresh oil is more expensive, more labor intensive, and not as efficient as removing small particulate as soon as it is in the oil, rather than letting it recirculate until fresh oil is introduced.

:2cents:

Detergent oils keep dirt and contaminants suspended in the oil, so that they get drained out of the engine with an oil change. Resulting in a clean, gum-free engine. Non-detergent oils of yesteryear don't, and the dirt and contaminants settle into nooks and crannies and the bottom of the pan. An oil drain leaves them there. Have serviced and worked on many, many engines that ran non-detergent oils back in the day, and they were always a gooey, encrusted mess internally. I seriously doubt that the new Driven oil is non-detergent, but I could be wrong. I would not run ANY non-detergent oil in an any engine I cared about. Brad is right about the by-pass filter, they flat-out work, but most don't want to bother plumbing one into the system for whatever reason.

Yes, there is no arguing bypass filters work. I don't think anyone here has ever said otherwise. But the reason you're wondering why most don't bother plumbing them in are actually more simple. Being a classic car forum, the majority don't want or can't have that system hanging off the car. It's honestly just not something most can or are willing to do. Most of the restorations I do the customers would be appalled if I even suggested something like that.
Couple that with the fact that most don't drive these cars much more than a couple thousand miles a year at the most anyway, it's just not an absolute necessity.
The by-pass setup is a great system where they make the most sense.

Now if they made something very small and compact and very easy to hide so it's completely out of site, more classic car owners would jump on board. As far as I know there isn't such a system and probably never will be since they generally don't market these things for the classic car world.

On the other hand, if one were to do an oil analysis as I suggested earlier, you could find that optimum oil/filter package and change interval that works best and extend those oil changes to a safe interval and save some money that way, so you aren't changing the oil as frequently and unnecessarily.

That's exactly what I did years ago in an attempt to find a longer safe change interval as my car habit grew, because as mentioned above, it's really not practical to be under the car every 1000 miles changing oil. That's a lot of time and money spent, especially when you have multiple cars. An oil analysis will tell you when it's time, and which brands of oils or filters are working best. It's honestly the next best solution.

Detergents tend to strip the zinc and Phos off metals. That is why most break in oils are non-detergent oil, and why racing Oils tend to have less detergent. Oil designed for Diesel’s are meant to run with older and newer equipment. The older equipment with mech. injection pumps does not like high detergent because it is hard on the injection pump. On the other side of that, zinc levels were lowered in Diesel oils a few years back when OEM’s started using EGR’s and cats. Higher zinc is not friendly for those. They found other additives the fill those gaps when the zinc levels were lowered. For a gas engine, more or less detergent isn’t necessarily a bad thing, depend on what you doing with your engine. If the oil claim’s “extended milage”, chance are it is really high in detergent. If it is a racing oil it is likely the opposite. It is hard to beat testing the oil to see if it is doing it job.

i will leave the dead horse bypass filter thing alone, FJ pretty much summed it up as to why classic cars or 99% of daily drivers dont use them. they do work & have their purpose mainly in semi trucks or fleet vehicles that do hundred thousand miles a year etc.

passenger cars today have far better designed engines & oils are so much better than even 20 years ago let alone 40-50. modern cars will easily go to 200k miles with standard filters & oil changes at 5000-7500 miles, not 1000. many foreign cars & some american go to 300k+ miles, there are toyotas with 400-500k miles on the original engines using standard filters... one recently was documented at 1 million miles & was still running good before they tore the engine apart & showed the internals were in good shape & capable of running more. most cars will fall apart before the engine dies because of using a standard filter. my argument about bypass filters on classic or modern cars is that they arent needed or practical, the manufacturers have figured out how to get hundreds of thousands of miles out of their engines.

for diesel oil, most brands are or were dual rated with passenger car API ratings as well as diesel ratings. they are fine to use in either engine but tailored more for diesel with the lower detergents etc etc. zddp usually runs in the 1000-1200 range based on recent virgin oil analyses posted at bobistheoilguy, most current passenger car oils are 900+ppm zddp, along with other modern anti wear additives they will do fine with most stock or "street" type already broken in cams/springs. that article touched on new advanced zddp formulas, valvoline has stated they use a longer lasting zddp so not as much is needed like the older oils, oils also have modern additives like moly that make up for lower zddp, as mentioned, you dont need super high levels today like most people think based on old oil technology. oils claim to be backwards compatible with any previous API rating, just because they are a little lower on zddp than the old oils doesnt mean they need a bunch of an additive poured in or VR1 type racing oils for a stock cam or even a popular ~.420-.480 lift cam once broken in right. id be more concerned with the quality of the china metal cam/lifters than a good name brand oil.

keep in mind there are millions of flat tappet cam engines on the road today using standard oils with zero oil related cam/lifter issues. i just sold my jeep cherokee with the 4.0 inline 6 engine, i ran whatever oil was on sale or usually walmart supertech with a cheap spin on filter... i drove that pretty hard & towed frequently with less than perfect oil change intervals, owned it for 17 years & never had any oil/filter problems, sold it at 200k miles 3 years ago & still see it driving around town today!

Why do these topics always get steered towards the "bypass filtration" discussion? Can we just start one bypass filtration thread with the same 3-4 guys posting there instead of beating this dead horse forever? Same guys beating the same drum...

Yes you can catch a few flys this way but but it is really not on topic and kills good discussions. And I am still waiting to see a modern oil study, on a gasoline engine, under normal operating conditions proving the bypass system does what you guys are so quick to claim.

There is just to little ROI

I don't claim anything with it as I've never used it and I don't promote the system, but you can find oil analysis with by-pass filtration systems in place all over the internet if you really want to see how well they work. Many from various oil companies if you don't trust individual tests.
I'm sure Sirrotica would be glad to post some as I'm sure he has to be doing his own oil analysis. At least I would hope so for as much as he claims they work for him, because the only way to know for sure is an oil analysis.

I honestly have no use for the by-pass system though. Yeah it does work, but has no place in the classic car world as far as I'm concerned or anyone is concerned that I've done work for. It's an interesting subject that a lot of people haven't been made aware of, but not something you're going to sell to the millions of classic car owners.

I think as long as we are around and still driving these old cars, we'll have oil discussions. Oil is an ever changing industry and this stuff isn't getting any cheaper either.

Just for giggles related to the original post on diesel oil.

Amsoil actually makes a high zinc oil that is multipurpose and compatible with diesel and gas engines. This formulation is made for heavy duty use and states works well with flat tappet camshafts specifically with higher tension valve springs.

Anyway, for those that don't want to lube their gas engines with diesel oil, here's one oil advertised for use in both. :noidea:

https://www.amsoil.com/p/premium-pro...-motor-oil-aro

most diesel oils are rated/designed for 4 stroke gasoline & diesel engines. amsoil is one but the other popular brands specifically state they are rated & Ok to use in gasoline engines, delo, rotella, valvoline etc etc, they all state they meet specs for both & are perfectly fine to use in either type of engine.

https://www.chevronlubricants.com/en...ae-15w-40.html

im sure theres some merit to that article but it seems to focus on the "higher rpm" use of gasoline engines or race situations... 99% of the time a gasoline street car is operating below ~2500-3000 rpm. diesel oils can be used in a gasoline engine with zero problems since most are rated for that purpose.

Yep, that's why I posted it. I just find it interesting more than anything else

A long time ago I read where toilet paper filters did too good of a job and took out a lot of the additives in the oil along with the dirt.

For the "I could never hide a by pass filter", crowd, I just went out and measured mine. It's just about the size of a one gallon can of paint, not really, I lied......:eek:

It's 4 inches in diameter, and 5 1/2 inches tall, with 2, 1/4 inch I.D. lines going to, and from it. I can see why no one could possibly hide one........LOL

I have no idea of how big the opponents think one is, but that's the measurements I just took. In comparison an AC PF 24 is 3.77 inches in diameter, and 4.21 inches tall. To summarize, it's 1/4 inch larger in diameter, and an 1 1/4 inches longer than a stock Pontiac PF24 oil filter.

BTW, I do run one on my 05 GTO, so for the notion that you just have to have an 18 wheeler to run one, not so. I don't have to mount it in a trailer to haul it behind me either...............:D It's nestled below the master cylinder, between the inner fender, and the left exhaust manifold. If I wanted to hide it, it would be under the front bumper, but that would defeat the ease of changing the media from the top, and not having to raise the car up.

Adding up to 8 times the engine longevity is well worth the effort of a proper filter on anything plus I don't have to crawl under the car to change oil constantly either. I can safely run my oil for years, just putting in a new roll of TP in every year or two. Last time I priced a roll of TP, under a buck even after covid jacked the price of toilet tissue up. It saves me money, time, and I don't have waste oil sitting in gallon jugs to dispose of. Another bonus, virtually zero engine wear, compared to a conventional filter.

Since we quit drilling for oil here, the price of oil has doubled over what it was a few years ago. I buy very little oil for my vehicles that have a by pass oil filter on, and though I do own 3 diesel trucks, they only are dually's, no 18 wheelers in my stable....:rolleyes:

The Franz by pass filter is also used as an auxiliary transmission filter by some people, and a diesel fuel filter to remove sub 10 micron particulate that will trash an injection pump in a flash. Generac now includes them in all their units currently, gas, propane, or diesel to help with engine longevity. If anything sits longer than a hobby car without constant running, it's probably an emergency genset.

One other thing is, moisture tends to accumulate in engines that get run infrequently, (hobby cars, gensets). The Frantz, because the media is cellulose, will absorb up to 6 ounces of water, and hold onto it until the oil reaches a high enough temperature to vaporize the moisture to steam, or the media is changed, and it gets tossed.


FRANTZ FILTER ON 396 CHEVY, I BELEIVE ITS A CHEVLLE

https://i.ibb.co/yBZBWm0/396-chevy-frantz.jpg

On racing, the early Baja 1000 VW based buggies were not able to finish races due to the fine dust ingested during the race because VW only used a mesh screen in the crankcase for filtering oil. Enter the use of Frantz by pass filters, and the engine longevity was increased so they could complete the race. Probably about the furthest use from an 18 wheel diesel you could come up with.

That probably ruins the theory that only OTR 18 wheel tractor trailer diesels can benefit from them.........:noidea:

I really don't care one way or the other if anyone on this board uses a by pass filter, or not, but the facts about them is what seems to get distorted from reality. They may not be for everyone, and I'm perfectly fine with that. I only wish I had tried them back in the early 70s when I first saw one demonstrated to me. It would have saved me some engines, money, and time. As the Amish say, "Old too soon, smart too late." ;)

:focus:

Um yeah, I don't want to stare at that sticking up in the engine compartment
LOL

It's an accessory that's not originally on a classic vehicle, so it'll look out of place if not hidden. Not something I'd be able to talk the next guy into that comes in here with a 6 figure car. It's not so much that I couldn't hide it, it's more of a question of who wants it on some of these high dollar cars where appearance is just as important, and not driven enough anyway.

For that to work, it literally has to be completely out of site, lines and all. I'm not apposed to doing that, I just haven't found the need for me personally, and have found very few others that even care enough to go through the effort.

Maybe they need to design something a little less intrusive or....??

Probably the reason I don't see this stuff marketed towards the classic car world, there just wouldn't be enough interest in it's current state.

This is another case of misinformation, additives bond to the oil molecules they are not filtered out, but actually extends the additives life longer by the absence of fine matter being removed in the oil that a conventional filter can't remove.

Instead of listening to opinions on the net, educate yourself about by pass filters, that's what I did. I know of no downside of the product whatsoever.

Link to how by pass filters work: https://www.machinerylubrication.com...ass-filtration

Blackstone labs, which FJ has referred to in his posts for oil analyzation, is a proponent of by pass filters in any and all engines. If you're attempting to run extended oil change intervals, a by pass filter will allow you to run many times over the manufacturers recommendations safely.

Of course the recommendation he makes to have engine oil analyzed for anything you want to know about the engines health, and the oils life is needed for a program other than stock engines following manufacturers recommendations.

If you want to talk about day two equipment, there were a few original owners that did install them in musclecars. I would have, if I wasn't so resistive to using a by pass oil filter back in the 70s....Yes, I too didn't use them then, didn't believe it would make a difference.

I know what type of cars you work on, and no they weren't offered. The only exception was on the 4 cyl 194 Tempests, Pontiac had a provision that eliminated the oil filter with a block off plate so that the owner could use a aftermarket by pass filter. Pontiac didn't install the filter, they just made the provision for the owner to install the by pass filter of their choice, and only on 194 engines, although the block off plate will fit Pontiac Stratostreak V8s.

Being the media has to be about the size of a roll of TP, (4 X 41/2) the current size is about as compact as it can be. For a brief time Frantz made one that would accept a half roll, but they had to be cut in half for the smaller unit.

On the Rat Rod circuit, many guys seek out the old Frantz units to install.

:focus:

Diesel Oil fits my vehicle/engine rpm usage as even at maximum final drive engine rpm
7000 rpm I would be running over 200 mph at a location like the Bonneville Salt Flats.
At normal safe highway speeds 75 mph I would be less than 2600 engine rpm.

So Diesel Oil fits my application perfectly vs Racing Oils (and no need for By-pass oil
filtration systems) as the vehicle mileage per year would not justify changing the oil
in the vehicle each year. I might see 1000 miles on the vehicle in a years time.

Engineers do stuff for reasons. And they take the advice of other Engineers in the field.

Tom V.

I absolutely do like the vintage stuff, and day 2 speed parts are cool. I could see the old Frantz unit on a Rat Rod.

I feel that way about every single oil article or discussion thread I have ever read.

My general 2 cents.

The standard oils, both diesel and gasoline tend to seem to

A. Change their blends all the time. Ive heard that newer diesel oils dont have the ZDDP in them that the used to.

B. More importantly they are not very forthcoming with some of that secret sauce information.

So you have do do a bunch of tiresome research or try to find someone who has posted real life oil data from blackstone of something on that oil. My point mostly being that just because Rotella was a good choice 20 years ago, that doesnt mean it is or isnt now. Im mostly just not willing to put in the leg work to make sure it is in an engine I care about.

Meanwhile, the boutique companies that make purpose built oil are very open about their additives. At least the parts consumers care about.

So for the most part in engines I care about I use stuff made for them. My 911 gets a Porsche classic branded oil. My Pontiac has a roller cam so it matters less, but I still use an oil with some increased additives for older engines.

I have a clapped 305 in my gasser project so it will move, it has Rotella T4 in it because its cheap. My willys Mb that has an 80 year old engine at maybe 5:1 compression gets the same. I dont think either of those engines have enough valve spring pressure to wipe a cam anyway.

Mark Schottler, (a Kansas Pontiac Enthusiast who posted on the board in the old days) has, (the last time I talked to him), over 350,000 miles on his 7.3L diesel engine and has only changed a couple of glow plugs in the history of that vehicle with NORMAL oil changes for his vehicle. They stopped making that engine around 2004. It is one of the most sought after diesel engines. And he has used 15w40 oil in that engine for its entire life. The combustion chamber is a open chamber vs the old style diesel chambers. (Like a Pontiac engine's open chamber).

No "add on parts" to "clean" the oil so he must be doing something right.
Basic 15w40 diesel oil as recommended by the vehicle manufacturer.

Tom V.

Filters
 

News flash, toilet paper rolls have just shrunk to 3.8 inches in height, just wondering how those will work in the Franz bypass filters designed for 4 inch filters. Also I have a f04d 7.3 diesel with well over 150 thousand mile on it and the service mechanic said I will probably wear out the rest of the truck before the engine goes. Noisy though compared to the newer diesels.

Since the oil runs end to end it will just have more space in the top of the cannister. When originally designed the rolls were 4 1/4 inches wide, then went to 4 inches.

They also have enlarged the cardboard rolls when they do shrinkflation requiring a spacer tube to take up the extra space on the inside.