What is up with tire mfgs lately?
 

I used to work at my friends shop and did many new tire installations, repairs, etc. So i have experience. However i left the game in 2008 when i had to move.

I had to get some new tires for my 2018 Nissan Frontier. My "go to" tires back in the day were basically any good named manufacturer. the best results i had were with Pirelli's and Michelins.
So i decided to order some Michelins Defender LTX M/S. Saw some reviews.
OMG.... the amount of wheel weights they needed to used.
The "kid" comes haul'n butt from the shop area, calls me, says look here you have bent rims, i said WTF you are talking about, he spins the tire and it wobbling up and down. he said i reset the bead and rotated a few times, your rim is bad. i sad NO, you have bad tires. Then i show them how to look at the rim, and start talking. They look at me and say, you know about this stuff, so i said yes, i was/am a mechanic.
Shop manager comes over, tells them get the last tire in stock and put it on, he tells me tire MFG's no longer quality check, they leave it to the shop now.
So, he puts the new one on, and its better, but the amount of weights it needs to me is unreal.
I never had this problem in the past unless we used knock off tire brands, aka cheap tires, or, someone like me had an older truck with sorta rusted out steel wheels. I remember less than 4 new tires that i deemed no good when i did tires (and i did a lot). most used just a small tab of wheel weights, unless there was obvious rim damage.
i even said to the installers, when you took off the original tires (Hankook is what Nissan used) were there a lot of weights, they said no, i said see, bad batch of tires. They were dumb founded.
anyway i am fighting with Discount Tires and Michelin on this issue. I just don't like that they had to put some really big weights on my $1400 set of tires.

I'm now reading reviews where people are complaining a lot about things like this, from various mfgs, especially Mickey Thompson tires.

What have you guys been seeing/dealing with?
I know new car mfg's probably QC things better
the skill/professionalism of the new breed of workers.... I don't know, do i just have to get used to it?
i get these shops are crank em in, crank em out, but man... where has quality control gone?
I don't have any small ma/pa type workshops here, so i guess do i suck it up and go to the dealer and hope they do better?
I need new tires for our Accord and My TA.
For the TA i will just get through Summit, but am really concerned about what crap i will wind up with.
and.... tires are NOT cheap anymore.

I bought Riken Raptors on recommendation from Tirerack. They only have about 4000 miles on them as my car is down but they rode hood and seemed to be sticky for a street tire

Haven't seen anything on my end. My son just bought a set of Nitto 555's for his mustang. I mount and balance them here myself and they were perfect. None of them needed anymore than 1.25 ounces of weight.

We run Mickey Thompsons on 2 of the cars including one of mine, dad has a fairly fresh set on his. No problems to date. I think he's getting ready to buy another set of Michelins for his truck, and the first set were perfect. :noidea:

I mount and balance a fair number of tires a year. About 200 or so. I have to say I haven't noticed a particular problem with Michelin branded tires. Most of my customers can't afford Michelin tires so they are only about 10% or so of my sales. The only brand that sticks out as consistently lousy is Goodyear. I try to steer customers toward any other brand in a given price range. Goodyear tires are generally out of round and require excessive weight to balance. They also within category, do not wear well. They are often OE on many cars and have a nice look so many customers want to stay with them. They are the ONLY manufacturer who has EVER questioned my methods, the quality of Hunter Brand equipment and discount the entire process of road force type balancing and it's value. In other words, rather than produce a quality tire, they would rather make excuses and bash the equipment manufacturers for exposing their low quality tires. I sell basically every brand Tire Rack sells and have not seen a particular pattern of low quality across other brands. Every tire now must have a country of origin in the sidewall. They are made all over the world. Tire rack has been very good handling my defective tires. They take them back, look them over and issue a credit. I have to send about 5% of them back for one reason or another. Good luck. All auto parts are pretty much a crap shoot now.

We do lots at work as well, Michelins have been good for us. BFG KO2'S have been terrible. we sells lots of them for trucks due to the
ply rating and winter rating, but some are really bad and have had to return them. 24 oz on one tire, even after spinning on rim.
Install new tire and it was down to 4 oz.

This tells you how old I am. When I taught auto mechanics in high school the tires would have marks either on the bead (an indentation) or a paint mark on the sidewall which would tell the lightest side of the tire so it could be mounted on heaviest side of the wheel. That was where the valve stem would be. It made balancing somewhat easier. (I think that was the way)

I was pleasantly surprised by the last I put on my truck...Mastercraft, made by Cooper. Required very little weight, run quiet, aggressive looking tread, very reasonable.
I'll certainly buy them again.

https://i.imgur.com/ravXNzvl.jpg

I run Michelin LTX AT2s on my truck, and they've been great, but they were made in 2018. I feel like almost every company and their quality control dropped off the face of the earth after 2020. Hell mine are on old school steel wheels, and they're smooth as silk.

Tires have been a big pain in the ass lately. Tons of sizes unavailable or in short supply.

Don, did they try breaking them down and rotating them on the wheel?

If they have a road force balancer , should be under 25 lbs. anything more is a defective tire.

Track73
That's how I remember it from my days at Goodyear back in the 60s. Tires going for OEM got a wax dot at the light spot. Was supposed to mount at the valve so less weight would be needed. Dealers didn't want to sell a car with a lot of weight showing. If I walk through a parking lot now, I see a lot of replacement tires with the dot put at random. I guess anyone can mount tires these days.

[QUOTE=Lemans64;6423409]We do lots at work as well, Michelins have been good for us. BFG KO2'S have been terrible. we sells lots of them for trucks due to the

this would explain my death wobble at 55 only...

It's all of them. I deal with 11R22.5 and similar sizes, but it's a total crapshoot. Anything more than about 8 oz and I prefer to break the bead and rotate the tire on the wheel to see if I can get it any better, but the Michelin rep won't take them back unless they require more than 12 oz and I've already flopped it on the rim and then tried another wheel, and shown them that a different tire balances fine on either of those wheels.

Absolutely! And that would be a heavy truck tire. Had a set of Goodyear eagles, 17". Road force, 6, 8, 11, 47 lbs. road force on 4 tires. Think there was a problem with the 47 lb. tire? Not according to Goodyear Rep. "Road force is an unreliable method for determining a defective tire". "Thanks to Hunter, we are having to warranty too many good tires". You have got to be kidding me!! I was done with Goodyear after that encounter. I bought the guy another tire at my expense. I won't use them anymore. If someone else brings them to me I will mount and attempt to balance them. No guarantee, no returns.

I use to run BFG AT and later the K02s on my trucks they worked well, but wore out rather quickly, I figured the weight needed to balance them was due to how large the tires were 315/70/17”(35x12.5x17”) same size as Ford Raptors and GMC H2’s come factory with.
When my new truck needed tires, I decided to switch tires and see if I could get some more tread life.
I can’t believe how much better TOYO Open Country AT3s are in both tread life and quality when it come to tire balance.
I am running 295/60/20 (34.5x11.5 x20”) on the new truck and they are 10 ply and it is only a half ton truck this time but I have put 40,000miles on these tires and they are still measuring at 80-85% tread. BFGs would be under 40% at this point.
They took a lot least weight to balance and have been great in all conditions including winter ice and snow.

On my wife’s car I have Michelin Pilot Sport 3+ and they are also a very very good tire, they are perfect for the car and lasting much longer than the Pirelli run flats they replaced. But that is not much of an accomplishment since those runflats last about 15,000miles. After the car went through 2 sets in first 30,000miles of ownership, I had to find something else or risk financial rune.

Most manufactures still do. Some don't. Most times I find it hasn't really mattered even though I try.

The problem I ran into with the Nitto tires I just mounted a few days ago, is they only put the dot on one side of all four tires, which makes sense, but since they are directional, 2 of the tires had to be mounted with the dot on the inside of the wheel, opposite of the valve stem. To make matters worse once the tire was on the rim it was impossible to rotate the tire before setting the bead. Usually that's not a problem but when you have a low profile tire with very little sidewall there just isn't any wiggle room, even when it's lubricated.

Good news is it didn't matter, they all balanced with just 1.25 ounces or less. Can't complain. Very nice tire.

i tried to get them to do that, they weren't understanding the objective to that.
i can also see how it's not seated properly, which is either on them or again, just defective in the batch i have.

I'm seeing very similar feedback where many weights were needed.

I also agree with what 72projectbird says too

holly cow..... i guess if that is the standard, then i'll stop complaining about my issue

i personally don't recall needing 8 oz or 12 oz

i want to say mine were tad under 3
but i'd have to look, i just know there are some really long weights that were put on, and reminded me of my old truck rims. i know i've never had to do that on any of the aluminum wheels (mostly Honda/Nissan/Toyotas, and typical GM/Ford cars and Jeeps)

LOL I don't even like it when they require more than 4 ounces.

I generally balance with weights just on one side of the wheel (inside) and rarely run into a situation where it takes more than 4 ounces.

Note that my comments referred to 11R22.5 tires, which can weigh 200 lbs when mounted on steel wheels. :D

That's a whole different ball game :pound:

I worked for Goodyear from 1982 to 1996. The tires were mounted dot-to-valvestem and rarely needed more than 2 ounces of weight per side. Usually an ounce or so. Back then, the tires would eventually wear out, but would never crack or rarely, separate. I had a set of Eagle ST's on my '67 GTO for 22 years. No issues. We used to sell Custom Polysteel radials and they were so good and lasted so long, there was no profit to be made on selling a second set of tires. They simply went on and on and on.
Today, with the 'green' rubber formulas, tires rot out in 6 years or less, and separate and explode, taking out bodywork. This never used to happen. Now, it's the norm. As are out-of-round tires that, even when balanced with a ton of weight, still vibrate. New rubber products just plain suck.

I bought a set of Cooper Cobras a few years back to replace the worn set on the car. They had been good to me so I went back for more. The WORST set of tires I ever had. They mounted seven tires before I could get a reasonable set and they still never balanced right. They were so bad that I took them off of my GTO and put them on my truck. One of them had a sidewall balloon out before I even drove the car. I won't even get into how quickly the RWLs turned brown.

This is what I have on my truck;

I have eight total (four on summer wheels, four on winter wheels).

K

Modern rubber is a disaster.

Tires don't last, wiper blades don't last. So far...so good on belts and hoses.

I don't know what changed--"synthetic" rubber, I suppose, and they found a way to make it cheaper.

And when did wiper blades get so expensive? The cheapest I could find for my tiny little 2002 Toyota Tacoma was $18 a blade!

If you are just going by the physical size of the weight, alot of state's require iron or non lead weights now. So they are physically much larger then the old lead weights.

I barely get 200 miles on my M/T and they are worn out. All kidding aside all the et streets and et pro's have been great..I also have a set of Nitto 555's that are a good tire. When it comes to truck size tires its hit or miss for wear..my work vehicles I used to run Michelin LTZ's and they were a good tire and lasted.

OK..... i'm not the only one who had sticker shock picking up another set of blades.... it's like you need to take a mortgage out
Safelite wanted another $180 to put on wiper blades....

ohhh and the price of oil filters.... OMG....
I paid so much less for an OEM Nissan Filter, was $4, aftermarkets were $8+
and paid over $15 for the KN filter for the TA now, man i remember when they were around $5 or so
now, they are hitting $20
maybe you can tell how long it's been since i've bought filters and parts.... but much like food prices, whatta ya gonna do

i will keep that in mind
i need to do a brake pad change this weekend so i will check them all when i dismount all of the tires. i want to snap some photos too
my brakes are in very good shape, just feel like doing them now instead of later

Both of my GMC Canyon trucks (2015 and 2022) came from the factory with Goodyear tires and they were great. Got 60K+ miles out of them and they ran smooth. I got the exact same replacement tires twice and both times there were 3 decent tires and the fourth was horribly out of round. Tire Rack made good on the returns. My conclusion is that the OEM's get the best tires and the aftermarket gets the leftovers. In other words, the tire manufacturers know which ones are junk and sell them to the aftermarket anyway.

My observations over the years are that an out-of-round tire will always ride terrible regardless of how well it's balanced and a nice round tire will ride good regardless of balance. Long story but I had a couple tires mounted on the front of a duallie and had to drive on them for a week before balancing. Nice tires with almost no runout. Balancing took about 4 ounces each and there was no noticeable improvement in ride.

Eric

This is still the case. The yellow paint dot on the tire indicates the point that should be lined up next to the valve stem. We had optical sensors in the assembly plant that spun the tire and wheel automatically prior to the mount that lined them up. It was something to see 500 tires per hour being mounted for the Vega assembly line. Remember - we had to do the spares as well.

I have had to explain the yellow dot to the techs almost every time I get new tires.

My wife's 428i came with Pirelli run flats also - terrible tires. You're right. No tread life and they never met a wet road that didn't feel like being on ice. I went to Bridgestone Drive Guards and found them to last 30,000 miles, have a smoother ride and much better wet road traction, and they cost about 15% less. In addition, a tread puncture cane be repaired on a Bridgestone. Pirelli does not approve any type of repair on their run-flats.

I've been purchasing my tires from Discount Tires exclusively since 1986. Brands have included Goodyear (2 sets), Bridgestone Drive Guard (3 sets) and Yokohama (16 sets). My wife and I average 40,000 miles per year between our vehicles.

Her car requires the Bridgestones since there's no spare and they have performed well considering the 45 series profile and run-flat construction. I have never been disappointed with the Yokohama tires, always running the model "exclusive" to Discount Tire - currently the YK740GTX. They are some of the best wet traction tires I've ever had and consistently deliver very good tread life and low noise levels for a good price.

I have never had a new set require more than 3 ounces of weight to balance on aluminum rims. I did have one set of the HTX series in 235/65R17 size that would take slightly more than 3 ounces to balance, but that was at the 40-50,000 mile mark.

You have to make sure to advise the person mounting the tires that the yellow paint dot on the tire needs to be lined up with the valve stem hole on the wheel though.

My 2016 F150 came with 275/55/20 Michelin's from the factory. I replaced them last year at 96,600 miles, they were not quite to the tread wear bars. Seemed like good tires.

Always check the manufactured date, many tires are old, especially in areas that don't sell a lot of tires. They can sit on a shelf in a distribution center for years.

I always get my tires from tire rack for some time now, because of said problem.

lately I've been running General tires, they have a wide range of types & sizes, pretty much something for everyone, but, they are a subsidy of Continental, and I have had very little luck with that brand.

I ran a bunch of Dunlop tires and their' subsidies for years, those I've had the best luck with.


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Another thing to keep in mind is tire size. 14s, 15s, and 17s are pretty much done, and the selection/quality sucks. These days, if you run those sizes, your best bet is to go to Coker. Hold on to your wallet tho...

If you're performance-oriented, or drive your car a lot, it just makes sense to go to 18s.


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Ooooof, not an 18" fan on classic cars, and not really 17's either for that matter.

I still find 15" selections and sizes that I need and use without any hassle. Both of our dailys still use 15's.

With one exception now, my sons 89 5.0 which is factory with a 15" wheel and 225/60-15 Goodyear Gatorbacks that are only available at Kesley for $445 a piece. The problem with that particular size is very few brands make it anymore for what ever reason. So for years he's run Uniroyal or BFG, about all that's out there. Can't see spending $1800 on tires for what is more of a driver than a show car. As luck would have it, it's time for tires and LMR just came out with a nice reproduction 10 hole wheel for the car in 17"
This opens up literally dozens and dozens of tire choices. I was leery at first putting a 17" wheel on such a small car but they did so good on the proportions of the wheel design that you almost can't even tell them from the 15's. Now he can run 245/45-17's that are the same height at the originals, only slightly wider, and provide at least some sidewall so it doesn't look like a rubber band. He was able to pick some Nitto 555's, a very nice performance summer tire for only $150 a piece. I have to admit, on this particular car I really like the 17's. The funny part is the 17" Nitto's were cheaper than the other brand 15's he was running on the car, and the Nitto is a WAY better tire.

What problems arise from the tire sitting in a warehouse?

Ozone and UV exposure still occurs in storage that starts to breakdown the sidewall and tread compounds.

I'm familiar with UV breaking tires down but incredulous that would take place in a warehouse. Years ago I saw a 1969 stock car at a car show with what were claimed to be period slicks. Was told the tires had not been in sunlight and were decent enough to drive on yet. He did say that he didn't trust them over 60mph.

I had a set of tires for my own car in the shed for over 10 years before using them last summer with no issues. Now that I'm thinking about it the front tires on that car have been on it since the early 2000's. They are fine.


Regarding the rest of the issues people are discussing we must be lucky.

I have a small auto shop. We sell tires. Unless a customer has a brand preference we sort the tires least to most expensive. Then go down the list to find a tire with a 600 or more treadwear rating. I can't remember having to add excessive weight a tire ever unless the rim is bent.

As a reminder, tires are really only good/safe for 5-7 years, and that's the upper limit. Homework it before you blast me.


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Yeah, I'm not spending $1400 every 5 years.

Some experts say 6-10years depending on storage conditions. All the experts are being a little conservative and while some of the tire’s aging goes unseen, if you are willing to check the tires visually for fitness you likely can push that time frame some.

I've been on 2 Hot Rod Power Tours, and you would be surprised at how many cars I passed between stops were on the side of the road with tires that failed.

Most if not all of those people were running old tires, which looked perfectly fine visually.

When you have a tire come apart on you on the highway, and it whips your quarter panel to death, THEN you will swear to yourself you will always replace tires at proper intervals.

Before you even mount tires, check the date on the tire. I've seen some tires come from a warehouse that are already 3-5 years old.

14, 15, and 16 inch tires are no longer very common, and have the greatest chance of sitting in a warehouse the longest. 17s are right up there too.

If you push the envelope on tire age, and accept the risks, I wish you luck. It costs a lot more than a set of tires to repair a quarter panel, or any panel for that matter.

In my experience(s), being cheap never ends well.

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Yep I've had tire failure at 70 mph on my truck. $3500 damage. I've had them blow more than once on my trailers too. It's not fun.

It's a fairly common theme in Arizona during the summer. Seems to always happen most during the hot months.

Never once had that issue living in Ohio. I think the intense sunshine in AZ and the really hot blacktop is a factor. I've gotten to the point when tires get over 5 years old I start getting leery of them. I might run them longer if they still look good but I tend to keep the trips shorter lol.

Non-popular sizes from smaller warehouses are often where the old/new tire issues come from. Especially trailer tires. Be sure to check those date codes! I bought 4 trailer tires years ago that were 9 years old when I received them. Sent them right back. After 10 years, your on borrowed time.

I'm always curious about what makes stuff break. I found what I think is a decent summary of the tire aging topic with a lot of references to NHTSA and some interesting insurance industry data:

https://www.liveabout.com/the-scienc...-aging-3234377

My takeaways:

- Oxygen in the air permeates the tire and chemically degrades the rubber and/or interface adhesion. UV exposure is NOT the primary factor.

- Pressurized tires have more oxygen, so degrade significantly faster than those in storage.

- Heat accelerates the processes - both diffusion of the oxygen and the chemical reactions


One thing missing in this article are the probabilities - the consequences of tire failure are bad (life and property damage) but the probability distribution at any given age is going to be very wide.. especially across the huge range of brands and designs. This is why everyone's experience is going to be different and why so many get away with using old tires. Another real world failure risk summary that rivals cam failures.

The article links to one summary of accelerated test development, apparently driven by regulatory efforts:

https://www.nhtsa.gov/DOT/NHTSA/NVS/...ac_SAE2010.pdf

In this summary, there is a chart that illustrates how much variation there is across a relatively small range of tested tires. I assume the markers are specific brands and/or tire designs:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...1&d=1682603951

The article doesn't touch on the material and design factors affecting the mechanisms but this chart certainly illustrates "not all tires are created equal".

Don't buy "Black X" tires, buy "Maroon Square" tires !!!

It would be interesting to know which brands put more R&D into this, but the bigger the company, the more liability exposure...

I'm now curious - are there DOT regulations regarding thermal aging of tires in service? Did the NHTSA efforts shared in the article result in testing standards that are now in use? If so, how did it all end up? What failure risk at what time at what temperature was determined acceptable?

Comment in one of the linked articles:

"Lower aspect ratios and higher speed ratings tend to correlate with longer life. This is probably due to less surface area in the air chamber and better construction, especially better inner liners."

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Sage advice...

I had 19y/o BFG's on my old T/A that I was trying to sell and didn't want to soak $ into tires then had the blowout on the lone highway.

Then just trying to FIND a replacement 295/50R15 in 2022 was a costly nitemare in itself.

Like the commercial says, the only thing between you and the road is yer tyres...

:(

If you push the envelope on tire age, and accept the risks, I wish you luck. It costs a lot more than a set of tires to repair a quarter panel, or any panel for that matter.

In my experience(s), being cheap never ends well.

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