Ram Air III Cam
 

How's the idle on the Ram Air III cam? Thinking about upgrading the dinky cam and lifters in my 10:1 long-rod 461. Don't mind a bit of lope but not too gnarly. Enough vacuum for the power brakes?

What cam you have in it now ? I believe Ram air 3 cam is actually 068 cam. Not sure. Ram Air IV would actually better. Specially seeing its a 461.

I think it's pretty mild. This is my previous Melling RAIII cam. To me it sounds more rowdy in the video than it did in person.

https://youtu.be/u1TXdkyh29k

Edit: Oh. Sorry. I see it's for a 461. That's a tiny cam for that CID. That video is in a 400.

Edit again: It's the Melling 068 in the above video, not the 744

Just judging from my buddy Ram Air 1V….400 Idels real nice and nice Lope will make ton of torque in 461.

If you are talking about the 744 cam, it idles with a very slight loap in a 10:1 433 that I have. I would imagine that it would idle pretty smooth in a 461. It runs well and it produces plenty of vacuum to run power brakes. Low end power is good but I also run a 4 speed and 3:90 gears. An 041 cam is a nice cam in a 10:1 455/461. It would produce plenty of vacuum, idle with a slight loap and make great power.

This is the cam in my signature in a 467. I think it's a little spunky but not bad at all. it has 14" vacuum at idle. Power brakes are solid.

https://youtu.be/ldukr0rEMz4

Speaking of the 068, in my 400 it's baby smooth, no lope. It's a relatively small cam all things considered. I wouldn't even entertain the thought of using it in a 455. I'd go straight for something with no less than 230 @ .050 in an engine that large, like the RAIV cam these guys have suggested.
Even that cam in a 455 set up properly will idle pretty docile with only a slight hint at idle and produce plenty of vacuum as long as you have a little bit of compression.

Current cam is a Melling SPC-5. which is like the 066 cam. Very mild, 198/208 at 0.050. I think the RA IV cam will be less streetable than the III.

The 068 Pontiac cam, sometimes called the Ram Air III cam is a very mild cam. The smoothest, "performance" cam for a Pontiac. Plenty of vacuum, can run with AC, any converter and rear end ratio. Good torque and power to 5000 RPM's. For folks who want a slight upgrade from the ultra smooth 067 run of the mill Pontiac cam, a nice choice. Works in almost any application. Worth 10-15 HP over a bone stock cam.

In a 455 it is plenty street able and if installed with Rhoades lifters (I'd recommend) it would idle nearly smooth. In fact you wouldn't even need a stall converter. Just to give an idea how the 455 soaks up that cam, the engine would be all done making power by 5300-5500 tops so it's not a big cam at all for a 455.

Honestly if it's running good now with no issues I wouldn't even bother spending all the time and money involved in a cam swap just to put an 068 in place of the 066. Just not worth it to me.

Question Dog Meister.... are you just doing a camshaft up grade?...or will valve springs be involved in a can change also?

A well worn 066 cam swap to an 068 cam: You would feel a slight surge in power improvement between 3000-5000 RPM. Some people will notice, some would not. As I mentioned, 10-15 HP. Probably get a little more from optimizing your distributor and carburetor tuning.

Yep, in a 455, (a 461 in this case with 10:1 compression) the 068 isn't a big power maker and certainly won't have any lopy idle at all. It would be all done by 4800-5000 rpm.

I've just never been impressed with the 455's I've run against at the Pontiac drags over the decades that follow the small cam mentality. Most all of them can't even outrun my stock RAIII 400, including the HO's and SD's that were in the stock class years ago.

If you're dead set on not using something in the RAIV size catagory, you'd be better served and doing that 455 a favor to at least look at a Crower 242 with a bit more duration and lift than the 068.

For reference. This is from Cam DR testing that I got from Ken Crocie / H-O Enterp

The Elgin cam as like a 744 and the Crane cam is like a RAIV / 041 cam

; HC-56 Elgin 909
; HC-549 04-12-90 Test # 49
; Rocker Ratio - 1.5:1 Intake - 1.5:1 Exhaust
; Checking Height = 0.004
;
; C1_File_-_Header_Information From Papers
; PVN,ICL,ECL_=_xxx,115.4,115.4
; Overlap_=_76.6
; Intake_Open_=_26.9____Close_=_94.9____Duration_=_3 01.8
; Intake_Cam_Lift_=_.27236____Valve_Lift_=_.40854___ _Area_=_22.79
; Exhaust_Open_=_83.2____Close_=_49.7____Duration_=_ 312.8
; Exhaust_Cam_Lift_=_.27193____Valve_Lift_=_.40789__ __Area_=_24.32


; Crane 969681 Blue Print 041
; HC0235 01-17-90 Test # 35
; Rocker Ratio - 1.5:1 Intake - 1.5:1 Exhaust
; Checking Height = 0.004
;
; C1_File_-_Header_Information From Papers
; PVN,ICL,ECL_=_xxx,113.8,113.8
; Overlap_=_86.1
; Intake_Open_=_31.9____Close_=_98.9____Duration_=_3 10.7
; Intake_Cam_Lift_=_.31374____Valve_Lift_=_.47061___ _Area_=_25.85
; Exhaust_Open_=_83.6____Close_=_54.2____Duration_=_ 317.9
; Exhaust_Cam_Lift_=_.31319____Valve_Lift_=_.46978__ __Area_=_26.58
;
; From a Different Piece of Paper
; 0.050_Overlap_=_8.4
; Intake_0.050_Open_=_1.5____Close_=_50.2____Duratio n_=_231.6
; Exhaust_0.050_Open_=_52.8____Close_=_6.9____Durati on_=_239.7

Stan

seems like we should know more ... weight, axle ratio, tire diameter, transmission, intake, carb, headers, heads, etc.?

if you have a stick with 4.10 gears and 26 inch tires, put a 290b6 in that sumbitch, get a vacuum reserve canister, and let it scream!!!! but you probably don't ...

This is the street section. So I would guess that people drive these cars. The above at 65 MPH would be turning 3450 RPM. Does sound like a fun 2 or 3 hour drive down the interstate to me.

Stan

A cam that would give you a nice bump from existing cam not break the bank and work with your existing gearing and converter would be the sum 2802

only sticky point would be iff your heads can handle the new lift and thats pretty much a consideration with ANY new cam

i did it with 3.90's and a 28 inch tire for a number of years ... if you want to know what it was like to have a real hot rod in the 70's, it's basically cruising at over 3000 rpm and desperately watching your temperature gauge every time you sit in traffic 🤣

Not looking for major gains. Just realizing that the cam I have in it now is too small for my combo: Long-rod 461 CID, 10:1, TKO-600, 2.5" duals, shorty headers, 3.55 posi. Just changing out cam and lifters, no other mods. Complete rebuild in 2013, less than 5,000 miles on it. Running that dinky cam 4 degrees advanced with #45 small valve heads gave me 459 ft-lb at the rear wheels but only 260 hp. That was with a Quadrajet. Has a Sniper Quadrajet EFI now, but I need to finish a few things up before taking it back to the dyno.

Will most likely go with the Melling SPC-3: 224/236 @ 0.050, 110 lsa. Will run it straight up, realizing a torque loss and hp gain.

IMHO that is still a very conservative cam choice with a wide ratio stick shift, 3.55 gears, 10:1 compression, and fuel injection. Should be a very docile combo. You could easily add another 10 degrees of duration and still have a car your grandma could drive.

Yep.

This shows a Crane 041, an Elgin 744 and a Sum2802. As you can see the Sum2802 is just about a 744 without the nose cut off.

Stan

My brothers '65 GTO came from Pontiac with a 4 speed and 3.90:1 rear.

In the late '60s and early '70s my '57 Chevy had 4.56:1

I enjoyed it then, not so much now. lol

Stan

I feel ya Stan! Pains me to say it but at my age sometimes I even think of adding (gasp!) air conditioning to my "hot rod" ...

I hope to be some help by clearing some of the minute details up:

What might be confusing is that there were no "Ram Air III" camshafts persay;
What there was, were two cams that had been used in performance applications for several years prior;
The "HO" cam was the 068 - this one is by a huge margin the most comon performance cam that Pontiac used;
It was in all 1970 RAIII engines, as well as 71-72 455HO - and the same lobe profile and timing as the one used in 73-74 SD455 engines.
The 068 was also used in the earlier "HO" motors, as well as the 1967-1968 RAI and all 1969 RAIII engines when backed by an automatic.

Your 066 is what I might describe as one of Pontiac's "bread & butter" camshaft used between 1965 & 1976 on a ton of engines - this grind was great for torque, but not so much for higher rpm use.

The next step up is the 067;
I would describe this as Pontiac's entry level performance cam - it was commonly used on the performance engines - but never a Ram Air or HO engine.
After 1970, and through to 1976, the highest horsepower (D-port) engines all used this grind.
On paper, this grind is really close to a 066, and I suspect that is why this cam is virtually unobtainable right now - I found one member with an NOS 067 cam, but otherwise, cannot find it.
There is an older Nunzie(?) version of this cam that was at one time called a 067HL - it is essentially the same, but with higher lift.

Next up is the 068 - nuff said.

The next is a 744;
This was for a time the 'Ram Air' cam;
It came on 1966-1969 'Ram Air' (Ram Air I & Ram Air III) engines when backed by a manual transmission;
Some would say (myself included) that this is the best sounding of all Pontiac grinds.
Others would say that this cam is crap because the lobes almost flatten out...

Next up is the 041 - it was introduced with the RAII, and used on it and the RAIV exclusively;
A solid lifter version of this grind preceeded the RAII by seven years.

I wold wholly agree with this post, but just want to point out (as previously mentioned) that the 067 which would be one step up from your current cam is virtually unobtainable.

068 RA III cam in 428-455 would be nice, if it were ping-freeat 10:1.

I'd go "bigger" on Duration (230), and much tigher on LSA (104*) for OPTIMAL broad rpm TQwith great idle and vacuum for PDBs. Prove me wrongk.

Too bad the "tight LSA offerings are 108* off-the-shelf.

On the 067 cam, I have a 68 Firebird with a 400HO, TH400 and ac. It is my understanding that the 067 was used in the 400HO with TH400 trans and the 068 was used in a 400HO with a manual trans.

interesting.

I don't recall reading (or noticing an instance of a drivetrain that would have had the 068 with a stick being changed to a 067 because of the automatic (ect).

"068 was in all 1970 RAIII engines, as well as 71-72 455HO - and the same lobe profile and timing as the one used in 73-74 SD455 engines."

1973-74 455SD engines used the same lobe profile and timing as the 744 grind.
Was planned for the 041 cam but did not pass emission test.

FWIW

really - well then I have some egg on my face!
I thought (going off memory) that the original intended SD455 cam profile was the 744, but that failed emission, and it was downgraded to the 068.

Thank you for the correction.

Very informative and interesting article about the SD cam from Rocky Rotella.

https://www.pontiacv8.com/blog/2022/...320-k-camshaft

"McCully shared that the SD-455 with the 308/320 camshaft was compliant with the EPA’s 1973 federal standard, however, it was unable to meet GM’s internal standard. Pontiac was forced to delay the SD-455’s release until engineers could find a solution and recertify it. With customers anxiously awaiting the highly-publicized mill there simply wasn’t time to develop a new camshaft. McCully and team had little choice but to grab the closest proven performance option—a 744-spec camshaft with 301/313-degrees of duration and .407-inch valve lift. The number 493323 (stamped “Y”) camshaft was created for the application, which consequently impacted power output. "

So was the 308/320 cam the "041" profile cam? That's interesting that Pontiac held itself to a more restrictive standard than the feds. That would have been something if they put the 041 in there.

The biggest difference between the 068 and the 744 cam is the added 13 degrees of overlap!

This in and of itself will increase the rpm of where peak torque kicks in by a good 250 to 300 rpm .
If your running the 744 cam today in a under 10 to 1 400 cid motor along with under 3.55 rear gears then your likely not a very happy with your around town drivability and especially with a automatic trans.

Since I had a 68 HO auto Bird I can confirm that the YW motor had the 067 cam and the non RA casting 16 heads a long with the limited carb to knock it down from same darn motor being rated at 360 Hp in the GTO .

This was due to the front office in 67 at GM putting in place the curb weight to HO rule so as to not embarrass the Camaro owners who may have had F body’s with a big block that added another 70 lbs over a Pontiac V8 motored F body.

Thanks for the link!!

I like Rocky's articles, but since the demise of HPP, and now me opting out of getting boned on mailing POCI's Smoke Signals (I was told the "international rates" were essentially set to accommodate the Australian memebers) I haven't seen any of his new articles...
I do maintain a POCI membership, but even downloading SS to our tablet has proved to be an excruciating experience..

I loved it in my fourty-over RAIII (backed with a 3.55 & M22 - probably under geared for a 400 with the M22).

If you're not able to use that link, I can cut and paste the article and PM it to you.

Since its just a camshaft change, I think your choice of the Melling SPC-3 would be your best catalog cam.

FWIW a true copy of the 744 cam, commonly referred to as the RA III cam is not availble from any new sources. The Melling copy was changed many years ago.

An authentic 744 cam will have a noticeable rumble in a 400 with headers and 1.65 rockers. It will also have noticeably less bottom end (below 2500) compared to an 068 and considerably more torque than the 041. Milt Schornack thought the 744 was a better cam than the 041. He did a cam shoot out at the track using several aftermarket cams. Nothing ran much better than the 744. Somewhere it's been written that the 744 cam was designed to help Pontiac backed race teams pull strong through the last 200 feet of the quarter mile. The 068 was soft in that area.

Fwiw the aftermarket 224/234 114 LSA 465/488 lift cam that's often referred to as a "hi-lift RA III" has a smoother idle than the 744 cam.

I know the 70 gto 455 came with the 068 cam with a manual trans and the 067 with the thm400. Only diffrerence between the different cams was the transmission choice.

Kind of interesting how they did that in a 455, yet the RAIII 400 engine of 1970 just came with the 068 cam no matter what trans you chose. Considering the 068 would act much bigger in a 400 and wouldn't even put a dent in a 455.

Any idea how long ago?

The one that is in my YZ engine was acquired in 1998.
I cannot remember the name brand it was, but it was supposed to be a Pontiac 744, and came without a cam card.

These recommendations from HO racing in the early 70s should interest many here in this string and if I am not mistaken they where inferring this along with compression ratios of over 9 to 1.

Maybe Ken from HO racing days can confirm this inference?

Pontiac did away with 744 cam in mid 1969 I believe. They were having complaints about cold start rough idle in Northern climates. Before that the four speed cars with 48 heads came with the 744 cam (and stiff valve springs) and automatics got the 068.

thanks for sharing this!

What publication is that from?
(and what pages please)

Over the years I have bought any vintage Pontiac stuff I have come across;
I do have one HO Racing book (engine blueprinting), but that is not in it.

Wait, someone from HO racing is here?

I have heard that someone close to McCarthy is here, but have never seen anything from the man himself;
(or noticed anything inferred to be second hand either)
I have also never seen any posts which I understood to be from any of the speed shops of days gone by...

I used to on occasion just imagine being around in the heyday of when all these great cars and engines were around...
The best I can now do is try to be financially smart, get a bigger garage, and maybe some day have a couple different Pontiacs to choose from.
(as long as the prices don't keep going skyward.)

Maybe Ken will way in on what he may sell now.

This is from the Elgin version of the 744 they sold many years ago

_______I__N__T__A__K__E
Rocker_Arm_Ratio_=_1.650_________Valve_Lash_=_0.00 000

VALVE_____Lift______Opens___Closes__Duration
_________________Deg_BTDC__Deg_ABDC_____________Ar ea
_________0.00000____50.30_|_121.70_|_352.00_|__38. 00
_________0.00400____32.22_|_101.59_|_313.81_|__37. 96
_________0.00600____28.14_|__96.18_|_304.32_|__37. 94
_________0.05000_____4.38_|__55.67_|_240.05_|__37. 24
_________0.10000____-7.29_|__43.59_|_216.29_|__36.30
_________0.15000___-16.73_|__33.82_|_197.10_|__35.15
_________0.20000___-25.70_|__24.73_|_179.03_|__33.54
_________0.25000___-34.98_|__15.37_|_160.39_|__31.24
_________0.30000___-45.04_|___5.30_|_140.26_|__28.43
_________0.35000___-56.81_|__-6.47_|_116.72_|__24.46
_________0.40000___-72.03_|_-21.72_|__86.25_|__18.76
_________0.44500___-98.73_|_-48.32_|__32.96_|___7.18
CAM_______________________________________________ ______ICL
_________0.00400____27.12_|__94.68_|_301.80_|__22. 99_|_123.78
_________0.00600____22.73_|__86.21_|_288.94_|__22. 96_|_121.74
_________0.05000____-3.64_|__47.30_|_223.66_|__22.23_|_115.47
_________0.10000___-19.42_|__31.10_|_191.68_|__21.00_|_115.26
_________0.15000___-34.50_|__15.85_|_161.35_|__19.09_|_115.18
_________0.20000___-51.81_|__-1.50_|_126.69_|__15.88_|_115.16
_________0.25000___-77.01_|_-26.67_|__76.32_|__10.13_|_115.17

Stan

Yes,,,when I bought my GTO the motor had never been touched internally. Still had the 068 'S" cam and nylon covered timing chain. With that cam it idled like a kitten but had a good low rpm pull. Now a RA4 sized cam with Rhoads and its only a little choppy,,,still pretty smooth.

Early 2000's ish ..... Definetly after 1998.

I went out today to look and see if I still have the box from that cam (I can be something of a packrat);
I first looked at my machine shop paperwork and it didn't list it;
But I did find a little note that I wrote in pencil at the time - I believe I was trying to get the spec's on this cam, in spite of it not coming with a cam card.

I want to say it might have been a 'Wolverine' brand - but I could very well be wrong;
I do recall that the machine shop had to do a lot of looking around to find it, and I believe it was a brand, or from a warehouse that was closing down...

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1686865094

So I next went out to the garage to where I have camshafts stashed;
I decided to look at the cams i had tucked away in case I recalled what they were incorrectly, and in doing so I surprised myself.

I clearly recall that when I was looking at the cam that I replaced, that it was stamped with an "A", and to this point, I had assumed it had a replacement cam... but It looks like the "A" stamp was on the wrong end...

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1686865360

I now know that the OE Pontiac grinds have the stamp on the front, and looky-looky!?!

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1686865433

I don't recall noticing that stamp before!
Now I want to buy a degree wheel to measure and confirm what I have!

---

EDIT:

I just did some searching, and it looks like Wolverine did go out of business - not sure when. Maybe my cam was a Wolverine grind(?)
Does anyone have an old Wolverine book?

One of my google searches brought me back here, to THIS thread.

Does 171R sound like a grind number? (this guys receipts could be misleading - sometimes he used part numbers, sometimes it was his own code.)
Maybe I'll just have to pop open my engine one day.

https://partshawk.com/melling-spc-3-...-camshaft.html Scroll down to the interchange on this page and the Sealed Power cam has that same number.

/\ thanks!
That’s some awesome sleuthing there!!
I’d wager he used the sealed power number on his sheet, but was only able to find the Wolverine part.
I remember there was some story of him having genuine trouble locating that grind for me.

Does anyone know when Wolverine was incorporated into Crane (which has since been incorporated into Comp!)?

Wolverine's parent company was Crane.

I'd think you have a true RA III copy camshaft. Not many places offered a copy of that cam. From what I've seen all of them were the same as the Mellings cam. Not all 068 and 041 cams are the same. There is more than one copy of them.

If you look closely at your S grind you can see the peeks of the lobes appear to be a little flat. The RA III is more pronounced. It's the only cam I know of that can almost be visually identified. I measured the dwell at max lift and I want to say it was at peak for twelve degrees. There is a post on the site that has pictures of this cam. I'm pretty sure it was posted by Ken Crocie (the owner of H-O racing).