Front end height
 

Do these cars sit high ? I’ve got a 68 gto in the final stages of assembly ( only took me 30 years ) it still doesn’t have interior in it or the endura on , but man it’ looks high in the front . I bought stock springs from Eaton Detroit for a non power anything no ac car . Since then I’ve added all of that ! The resto shop owner said that they sat high new . It sure didn’t when I took it apart . The car was only 10 when parked with 88k on the clock , so I doubt that they were shot . Right now I got temp tires on it p205/75/15 . I have a hand with between the fender and top of tire .

That front bumper is darn heavy . I was surprised . It sat fine be for I took it apart lol had F70 Firestone’s on it that filled the well nice .

This is my favorite ad from an original 68. You can get a pretty good feeling for how it sat from this

https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.2YpQTo...id=ImgDet&rs=1

I can't remember where it's printed but it's in the shop manual or the Zazarene resto book. The stock height measurements under the rocker panel... behind the front wheel opening and in front of the rear wheel opening. I do recall that the stock height is slightly higher in front.
As for replacing springs, I have a fear of replacing mine because I've seen so many posts over the years from people that got the dreaded 4x4 look.

I know I've seen this somewhere else as well but this one is from the 1969 assembly manual. It refers to 1969 Tempest and Grand Prix. Tempest 2dr is 3327 and 4 Dr is 3369. Notice front measurements are slightly higher.
If I'm deciphering it correctly..
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If you bought them from Eaton, they will be perfect!

Thanks , I might just be jumping the gun a bit - I hope . Would putting in my stockers be a mistake or just call global west if it comes down to it ?

What are the measurements? How far off from the factory drawing I just posted?

I don’t have access to the car at the moment to measure . It’s still at the resto shop . They have the dog house on but not the front bumper or any interior . I had the body off the frame and put the springs in 2015 when I assembled the frame - so they’ve been compressed with engine weight since then . I’ll be back up at the shop sometime this week - it’s about a 40 mile trip . I tell ya’s one thing though , the paint is beautiful ! It’s solar red and I love it . I’m not a huge red car guy but this solar is like tobasco sauce lol it really changes shades in the sun . I added a vintage air system , power steering and brakes , ram air pans , smoked glass . The rest is the factory 400 warmed up a bit , M20 and 3.90s . Im so close ! I’ve never driven it .

Take some pics!

Been parked since 1978 - almost done

Beautiful, should be a showstopper.

I install lots of Eaton springs, and even though I give them credit for making good parts, they make mistakes too. Here are 2" drop leaf springs we installed a couple of months ago. The one we installed on the driver's side had the hole punched in the wrong location on the upper leaf where the bolt goes through to hold the spring pack together. It was 5/8" forward of the hole in the other spring.

Once I could prove it to them they shipped a replacement out in 3 days.

Man , that’s what I’m afraid of , and I bought the springs like 12 years ago ! A doing swap for $200 is no big deal , I just want it to look perfect when I pick it up . I started buying parts for this car in 1990 when I was 12 ! So I’m kinda ocd about it lol

As Reid already posted the factory heights are in the assembly manual as well as detailed locations where those measurements are taken.

My experience over the years with Eaton has been hit and miss. Sometimes they get right and sometimes it's out in left field.

Last several years I've used Coil Spring Specialty and have had 100 percent success with them. Even when I need a stock ride height in custom stuff with fiberglass body parts and heavy aftermarket iron blocks they nail the ride height perfectly and even do it with a spring that can act like a drag spring if desired. They ask a lot of detailed questions so be prepared with answers.
Not necessarily cheap though. Last set I got was around $300 shipped and could be a bit more now. But they get the ride height where it should be on the first try saving me from taking the springs out 3 times going back and forth lol.

Haven’t been able to get up there , but had a pic sent ,
No nose or interior , those s10 wheels are 205/75 /15 .

Yeah, it looks high...like when there's no engine in the bay.

My springs came from coil spring specialists many years ago as my restoration took a really long time. Sat too high front & rear. I ended up shortening the springs in the front & went with another brand for the rear. I think I had a thread on that when I was battling it. I have stock size goodyears on the car, so I can measure where I ended up, but I know I went a bit lower than the stock height in the front. I'll look into it as now I am curious.

So measurement is taken at 32" front & 23" rear from the wheel centerline?

The more accurate way is from the rocker panel and the preferred method.

Not sure what you mean. the manual image above shows the point where you go up to the rocker panel. Looks like its taken from the center line of the wheel.

I don't recall where I originally measured mine. That was 4 years ago already. :p

Edit: Guessing those measurements put it pretty close to the edges of the rockers front & rear though. I feel like thats all I did?

If you look at the chart that shows the ride height, there are several variances depending on car and options. Those heights vary from 7-8-9 inches etc... Those are taken from the rocker panel.

Each car is a little different in the instruction manual but you first measure inward from a fixed point, down the rocker panel to find the location the measurement is taken from. That fixed point could be the centerline of the wheel or at the edge of the rocker panel itself. The same procedure is done at the front of the rocker and at the rear of the rocker.

It's important to find that fixed point the measurement is taken from on the rocker for an accurate measurement, because moving up and down the rocker any distance will change that measurement.

Hope that makes sense.

Is L.W.B. and S.W.B. four door and two door?
If so, looks like the rear measurement is taken 19" in front of the rear wheel centerline.

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Did you tighten up all the suspension bushings with the car in the air?

If so, loosen them up and let the suspension settle with the weight of the car on it.

These are the measurements I was questioning last night. I just didn't recall using them as the point to measure from. I should have explained my question a little better as I didn't recall that being part of the measuring process. I looked at my 68 this morning & The rockers start at +/- 18" & 29" I squeezed the caster from negative to slightly positive in the wheel alignment though, so my front wheels are back just a fuzz from where they should be if my alignment was to spec.

Looking at the car though I remember now that I did not use those measurements, I just measured about 1" in from each starting edge. At the end of the day this is splitting hairs as far as the heights goes though. heck, tire pressure I'm sure effects the height more than were you start from the center line of the wheels :D

I am also curious what the L.W.B. and S.W.B. is for. Guessing long wheel base, short wheel base? What about "276"

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1689762357

Yes tire pressure plays a roll, and of course these measurements in the book are with stock bias ply tires in place as well.

I'd have to look but pretty sure that is all explained in the assembly manual because even the same type of car had different tire options for that particular model with different tire heights and different pressures, so the measurements change as a result.

As an example, I know when looking at the assembly manual for our 69Z, they had a specific tire that no other 69 camaro used (E70-15 wide tread Goodyear or E70-15 Firestone Sport Car 200's) and they are taller, yet the 69 Z/28 had a lower ride height than any other 69 camaro.

None of the suspension was tightened as the body was off when I installed them 8 years ago . What application would take such a spring - dump truck ?

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Since I put my new motor in, my car looks a little bit like a gasser. Today I put the radiator in and the front bumper back on thinking for sure it would bring the front down. Not by much and 69 LeMans front bumpers could be used for bench press by Olympic athletes! I still have to put the hood on, so there’s what, 100 lbs? I can’t imagine that the aluminum heads, intake and headers lightened it up that much? [emoji2369]. So yeah I’m in the same boat, front end is sitting high but I like it.


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Here’s an interesting pic I found from 2 years ago when I had my cast iron everything 350 cu in motor in my car (the green one). Note the front fender well height. The front springs in my car were replaced by the previous owner, I believe they are Moog stock replacement springs with ACDelco shocks. The white Judge tribute car just behind sits more like mine does now with the lighter aluminum engine parts. Maybe this will help shed some light on the subject.


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My 69 GTO sits exactly the same with the front end high like yours. If your car was a factory air car heavy front coil springs were installed instead of the standard coil springs. And if you now don’t have the factory air in the car you’ve taken a lot of weight off the front end. Also if you now have an aluminum intake and headers instead of the cast iron intake and exhaust manifolds you have shaved more weight off of the front end. Also do you have 14 or 15 inch tires? 15 inch tires would fill up s little more space inside the wheel well. For me I’m going to put air shocks in the rear to raise the rear end to to balance it out. For me the front end being high is good for when you go over a bump or big dip in the road you’re less likely to bottom out. I suppose you can get new coil springs that will lower the front end.


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These kinds of problems occuring is precisely why I have steered away from replacing my coil springs.
So, when does one feel that it is necessary to replace the coil springs? If the car sits unlevel or ride height is off? Or is it just that if a person is doing a full restoration they want new springs along with everything else that's new in the suspension?
The only reason I can think of for changing the springs is if the ride height is off. My car sits at the factory height now with old springs. If I go through the trouble and expense of changing them out and the ride height is off when I'm finished I'll be like, why did I do that?

Here’s a picture of mine and the ride height on the front end was the same with my original coil springshttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...a167127ffb.jpg


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Eaton, and all other replacement springs are incorrect. They all sit way too high and they are not tapered and flush machined at one end so they banana once installed and can contact the frame, all junk. If at all possible keep the original springs and if necessary add disc spacers to compensate for age sag. All you have to do is look at a factory front coil spring part list, there were dozens of different part numbers just for 69 A bodies and there were specific left and right applications depending on model, body style, engine choice, transmission choice, ride and handling or heavy duty suspension options, AC or not. How could one or two part numbers today possibly correctly replace all that?

As for the lwb versus swb the long wheelbase was 4 doors including wagons and short was all two door models.

On the GP you got a lower ride height if you ordered auto level control rear shock option (which was included in the SJ option) so those cars got lower front and rear springs.

HD suspension is not ride and handling suspension, it is the Heavy cargo option (F40 in Chevy lingo) which basically jacked up the car similar to wagon height for encyclopedia salesmen etc. The Y96 ride and handling option did not change ride height but it did include different springs that gave a firmer ride.

Correct, and why I stopped using Moog decades ago when they consolidated a bunch of part numbers.

What you said is why I started using Coil Spring Specialties. They are aware of the numerous spring rate changes for a specific model and can even tailor the rate based off of changes you've made to the car IE: aluminum heads, fiberglass body panels etc... and can also incorporate things into the spring like extra stored energy for weight transfer. All while keeping the stock ride height, if that's what you're after.

Just be prepared to answer a lot of questions. The better you answer those questions the better spring they can provide you with. There is also a wait time for them to make the spring of course. The last set I got from them took about 2 weeks. Not sure what the wait time may be currently.

north, what is 276? Grand Prix maybe?

I do have some 69 GTO springs from a parts GTO from the 80’s I have and will save them for future possible installation. I bought the new springs from Moog and was hoping that would bring the front end down some but it didn’t. Not tapered at the end like the originals. My car has a lot of front end weight gone due to no AC, aluminum intake but current plans are for me getting air shocks and raising it up to balance it out. One great thing about the raised front end are for far less bottoming instances.


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I agree, I do like the front ends to be up just a little bit, either near factory height or a pinch more, for a lot of reasons. A big one is just like you said, bottoming instances. There are plenty of opportunities to drag the bottom of the car driving around here in Arizona, and a low hung car is just a complete disaster to try to drive without your stress level reaching the limit, and that just makes the car unpleasant to drive anywhere.

This is the front end now with 2 in drop springs from jegs . That’s about how it sat when I took the car apart . I haven’t lowered the rear yet by the way . Jegs brand , who ever winds theirs , 2 inch drop 500lb/in spring set was on sale for $269 for all 4 .

500 ft/lbs will be brutal.

Ya think so ? The stock springs are around 330lbs fro memory and although comfortable , everything I’ve owned from the 60/70’s seemed under spring and floated . All the suspension sights I’ve been on listed springs from 550 to even 650 on some kits ! I thought a 500lb rate sounded like a good compromise - of course I base this off of nothing , I’m in uncharted territory .

I don't know about that but the front end ride height sure looks better now.

Thanks Greg , I don’t even think it looks lowered or slammed whatever it’s called . Looks normal to me . Dropping the rear to match should give me what I want , just have to wait and see if it knocks a filling out lol

It depends on how tall that front tire is for me to judge, but the top of that tire is already hiding in the wheel well and the picture gives the impression that the lower valance is pretty close to the ground. I hope that's not a 26" tire.

If it is I'd say the front end is pretty low....?? It doesn't look like it would do well driving the streets of Arizona lol but pics can be deceiving. A measurement from the rocker would be helpful and give an idea.

Yes it’s a 26” tall tire p215/65r15 . I haven’t been up to see it in person yet . If it doesn’t work out , the next call will be to coil spring specialties , I’ll pretty darn well know what I’ll need the 3rd time around lol . They were several weeks out and I’m trying to wrap this up and just get it home . The jegs sale was hard to beat and in stock . She’s been at the shop for 2 years and I’m ready to wrap things up ! Atleast at the fender well , it only seems maybe an 1” shorter than stock when it had F70’s on it that are about 1/4” taller . Btw , what’s wrong with Arizona roads ? I thought rough roads were from salt and freeze damage ?

Just obstacles is what I was referring to. Mountain terrain, lots of uneven driveway entrances at weird angles and they really like their speed bumps on steroids out here. Low hung cars are a real pain to drive around, you have to constantly be aware.

When I lived in Ohio, things were pretty flat and was never a big deal.

I can see what you mean on the second pic where the rear is jacked up. Looks much lower than on the first pic.
I've had slight rubbing issues on just about every decent sized tire I've had on the front of mine.

As high as the front was before , it sat level . I don’t know why he didn’t put the rear springs from the new set in while he had it on the lift . Those are 275/60 coopers on the rear .