12-1 Crank Sensor Kits For Pontiac??? Crickets, Really?
 

I'm frustrated with my Holley dual sync, I'm jumping to 12-1, even Holley tech can't find anything.

Please tell me there's a way to do this?

Thanks

Yeah there’s a way to go 12X… I just did it :pound:

You need this 12X SBC kit and one of the brackets I had made.

https://www.holley.com/products/parts/556-171


If you happen to have a spare MSD Pontiac specific crank trigger, you can use just the mounting bracket with the 12X kit I posted above. Holley/MSD will not sell the bracket separately.

https://www.holley.com/products/igni...its/parts/8650

http://www.lstwo.com/images/88137268078067459688.jpeg

http://www.lstwo.com/images/92363977622565257381.jpeg

I reached out to Funkhouser’s to have more brackets made. No ETA yet. Pricing depends on how fancy I want to get… steel vs aluminum… painted, powder coated or anodized :cool2:

http://www.lstwo.com/images/42413528733499629966.jpeg

Nice, thanks for the quick reply.

How quickly can they make 1?
I'd need it fast and do you have an option B if they can't?
I know plenty of peeps that can get that made for you, and me of course so I'll willing to pull the strings.

My engine was on the chasis dyno having dual sync timing issues so I'm now in limbo.

Thanks

Realistically, probably 2-3 weeks. It depends how busy he is.

Plan B for you would be to order both, the Holley crank trigger I posted, and the MSD Pontiac crank trigger and take the Pontiac specific mounting bracket from the MSD to your friend to duplicate. Then return the MSD kit and install the Holley with the new fabricated bracket.

Crap I just remembered… what harmonic balancer are you running? I’m running an ATI 917730 which has a chebby 3 bolt pattern. The Holley does appear to have multiple mounting hole options (possibly it will fit a 4 bolt Pontiac balancer?). I figured I should mention it.

Thanks for the tips...

Holley owns MSD, wth, they can easily offer the 12-1 kit for us if you literally need that exact bracket.

I run a fluidampr for the 400, possible bolt on with the available hole options? I'll find out I guess. Hahaha

What did you do for distributor?
You run dual sync, disable crank feature and use as cam sync and oil pump etc?

Thanks, your help and my going in 2nd, we'll be the 2 guineas that will later help the rest make the jump easier.

Buy Holley
Buy MSD
Copy bracket for hall effect sensor
Help them see there's a market so they can use their own MSD bracket in a Holley 12-1 for Pontiacs.

Yes, Holley has all the parts to do it but they won’t. I spent quite a while trying to talk them into selling the Pontiac MSD bracket separately but they said they couldn’t. In the end I borrowed a MSD bracket from a friend and used it as a template.

The first thing you would need to figure out is if your fluidampr is a 3 bolt or 4 bolt. Mine works because it’s 3 bolt chebby style. After a brief search it looks like the 4 bolt spacing on the fluidampr is more narrow/tighter than stock Pontiac spacing. The Holley 12-1X instructions say it works with a 3 bolt. Looking at the picture it appears the tighter 4 bolt pattern may be an option. I’m just speculating though
https://documents.holley.com/frm36691.pdf

If the 12-1X wheel won’t work with your balancer you could always use the Pontiac MSD crank trigger kit for the signal.
https://youtu.be/2u5B8BaRRXY?si=uEoquPAsm0caNRJU

I use a dual sync distributor (with the short blank cover) for the cam signal. I’m running a Holley coil near plug setup so mine is a little more complicated. The dual sync was struggling a bit with my setup.

Food for thought… my first 12-1X kit came with a MSD Hall effect sensor. It had an intermittent miss. I swapped it for a known good Holley Hall effect sensor and it ran perfect. I sent back the MSD sensor and they replaced it with a Holley sensor (which is on my car now).

Also, there was an update to the dual sync. The modules were going bad. My first dual sync arrived with a dead module. Holley replaced it after an arguing about it. Don’t quote me on this but I think the module was updated in May 2022. Anything prior has the old module. Some work great, some crap out.

I'm gonna look into all this, really appreciate the fast replies.

My dual sync was from late 2022 on the box. I'll eventually need to figure out how to go just cam sync using this with the crank and Holley Hp.

Oh Ya....
I'll buy your bracket anyways in case all my stuff falls off, let me know what your people need for a price, steel and black etc. Or whatever is fastest.

What did you do for your pulleys after install, spacers?
I'm stock crank pulley, smaller water pump and alternator.

Thanks

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/f...1/make/pontiac

The fliudampr might work since the Holley 12-1 has a lot of holes in the wheel. I'll report back for sure since this is going to get more and more popular every year for us.

I'll find out in Dec how this works out and this bracket issue thing, I'm up for all 3 options......
Use MSD, buy yours, get 1 made.

I think Holley knows if they offer the Ponti with MSD bracket then they killed off the 4-1 for MSD.

Pretty sure the Dual Sync modules have a rash of versions, the only version 1 and version 2 of the Dual Sync is the 2nd had powder coated reluctor and other items to help control rust. And they did a mod on the caps to help moisture to escape.

This last Dual Sync I bought appears to be holding up, and not have any issues. But, I may have just got lucky. I actually bought 2 so I have a spare.

I also bought a 24x setup from a board member who makes a kit, the wheel is attached to the back of the balancer, so no pulley spacing required. Unfortunately, machining is required to manufacture the wheel setup, it is fixed to a balancer that is part of the kit, increasing cost (it is a popular SFI unit tho). The pickup has a bracket that fits in place of the fuel pump. Sure you could fab something.

Next time I get a chance I will install the balancer, and when the Dual Sync craps out, will switch to the 24x. I will use the Dual Sync for cam sensor until it craps out, then I will just use a Pro Billet.

Dual Syncs require fine tuning of inductive delay setting, and it's kind of a pain. But once you find the magic number for the setting, you know you can use it from then out.



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I wasn't happy with the timing creep on the dual sync, not something worth moving forwards with if this crank trigger was possible, looks like, thanks to R70 Judge there's a path and from there then there's other options to make this happen...

Holley told the engine shop how to do a cam sync only Dual Sync so that'll be a plug and play for clean wiring. I'll see if it's possible to offer this connector after the fact.

I have the 3D Scan. CAD and CNC all in one doing the bracket for the Holley 12-1, BBC kit with a possible line up on the Flyidampr will be known soon.

I'll report back on all this, maybe we'll have a bolt on path to doing this even if Holley doesn't want to offer their kit and kill off the MSD 4-1 crank trigger Ponti offering.

Timing creep = Inductive Delay

You may have to do it with a crank trigger too. You have to check once it's running.

All you need to do for the crank trigger is un-pin the pins for the dual sync connector and plug in the crank trigger.



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Just to reiterate, I used the 7” SBC kit for my ATI balancer. You mentioned BBC and I just want to make sure you are looking at the right kit. I don’t know how big (diameter) your Fluidmpr is, but I wanted to mention it again so you don’t get the wrong parts.

Mine is Holley Part #556-171

:beerchug:

Thanks HWY, I'll pass on the picture of the wiring. I'm going for a plug and play connector for the crank to Holley HP.

James, did you need to mess with the inductive delay after your Hall sensor install?

Damn, I've been saying BBC but luckily have your links for the SBC 556-171 Holley kit. Thanks for staying on this and reminding me.

It's a metripack connector, cake to remove/install pins:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNKdFBEtQ8Y

In the long run, you're going to need to know how to do this, or you will be paying labor rates that nearly challenge politician salaries for stuff you can easily do.

Here's the link to the HP/Dominator main wiring harness:

https://documents.holley.com/techlib...10555rev16.pdf

Just tryin to help a guy out.

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They did mess with the inductive delay when they got it up and running. It was still a bit erratic. I personally think it was due to the coils I'm using. I've read that they can be a bit finicky.

The Holley BBC 12-1 wheel is 8" OD and the SBC wheel is 7" OD. My ATI balancer (Part#917730) is 7.074" OD. I do not know the OD of your Fluidampr. As long as it is less that 7" you should be good.

https://www.atiracing.com/products/d...dampontiac.htm

https://fluidampr.com/pontiac-oldsmobile/

Looks like Pontiac Flyidampr is 6 5/8 so the SBC 7" Holley 12-1 wheel like you have might work.

It said bolt holes on the Fluidampr are 3.30.

Darn, I was hoping that maybe it didn't need inductive delay tweaks after it was lined up etc. Hopefully it's way more precise so this will be easy and rock solid.

Sorry, I misread what you posted. I was referring to when we were initially trying to use the dual-sync. Once we went to the 12-1 wheel everything worked perfectly. According to my file my inductive delay is set at 100. I just realized that I don’t have both sensors set for digital rising/falling. I think they are supposed to be the same but idk how big of a difference it really makes.

I'm sure I know this answer but...

You timing checked the base rpm and 3000rpm after the 12-1 install and saw it dead on with those usec 100 settings?

Things are looking good, I'll probably have the spacers for the pulleys available too since it appears as if the Holley wheel pushed out the crank pulley. This means at least 3 spacers will be needed (no AC for me)

Just to say, no matter what you do, you have to physically check inductive delay, it's not reliant to only the pick type.

Digital rising denotes when the pickup is at the beginning of a 'window', digital falling is when it's at the end.
'
EDIT/Correction - I have this backwards, it should read: 'Digital falling denotes when the pickup is at the beginning of a 'window', digital rising is when it's at the end.'


Image & Reference source:

https://forums.holley.com/forum/holl...igital-falling

For the most part, a crank trigger should be digital falling.

Additional reference source:

https://forums.holley.com/forum/holl...-Sensor-Setup=



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"When the sensor sees the edge of an “opening” or a “gap”, this triggers the sensor in a “Falling” manner.
When the sensor sees the first edge of the material or tooth, this trigger the sensor in a “Rising” manner."


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In the example, for a hall effect crank trigger, inductive delay is set to '1'.

But that's an example, and you need to physically check.


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There is no selection for 'Hall Effect' sensor, 'Magnetic' is used.


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Thanks for the replies..

My Holley V5 won't allow me to access the Dwell window unless it's connected it seems, lame.

I have a Summit Ignition box so while I'll have the tuner run the show for now I'm going to do the Joe Simpson classes and make sure I'm on top of all this after this engine is completed.

Sounds like...
Crank = Type 12-1, Sensor Magnetic, Inductive 1usec
Cam = Dual Sync/ Custom? - Digital Falling

You should really upgrade to V6 Build 400, you may not get support if you call Holley, first then they will tell you is to upgrade. It also requires a firmware update I believe.

The 'dwell' setting is only available with certain ignition options, and custom. It's under System Parameters > Ignition Parameters > Custom , then it depends on the type of crank sensor option you select.

That image I posted before is offline and shows the dwell option. Change the type of crank sensor option and it will probably appear.


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There are many bug fixes in V6, and feature updates. Surprised your tuner didn't recommend it.

Here's the V6 revision history:

https://documents.holley.com/techlib...evisionlog.pdf

It's pages long.


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Scanned, CAD and prototype bracket made.
I hope to have the final piece next week and on the engine by the end.

Goal is to have the engine back on the dyno, all steps taken to ensure the tune sees on the money timing and then how to replicate for future Ponti EFI enthusiasts.

My bracket will be available in case Holley doesn't make a specific kit.

Ok brackets are on, the L bracket needs to be redone smaller as the stock crank pulley diameter barely touches the L bracket for hall sensor.

Getting closer, this looks like it'll work, I'll have a complete custom kit for us.....

Custom Ponti timing cover bracket
Custom Hall Sensor L bracket
Shims for bottom of L bracket for perfect centering of Hall sensor
Water pump and alternator spacers due to 12-1 wheel thickness pushing out crank pulley.

Watch, Holley makes this kit over the Summer after they see there's a Ponti market. LOL

Pictures coming soon after we get it completed, probably Jan 22nd week.

I'd really like to see the pics when you get a chance, I may go that route on my other build.


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We're getting closer, needed many tweaks to the brackets for those of us with the stock crank pulley diameter.

When its done it'll be a nice addition to our community and hopefully cover a bunch of us. I'll evetually need info on if 68-69 timing covers are the only ones that have bracket holes in this location etc. I think there's a good chance only the main bracket holes would need to tweak for different blocks of the holes aren't in the same location.

I'll have details soon, pics and hopefully dyno data to help future installs.

I think the timing covers are the same from 69-79. Who would’ve thought that you using a different balancer and pulleys than me would be such a difference. I use a Moroso 3 bolt mandrel to drive my power steering and alternator. My set up is pretty common for a race car setup, hence why I didn’t have the pulley issue.

It’s great that you are making something that fits a wider range of applications!

Yeah, like I mentioned in another thread, the pulley setup is a deal-breaker for me. I have like $3500 in a Billet Specialties serpentine kit. But even folks with AC are going to shy away.

Being able to use OE pulleys will make it a more fluid choice.

That's why I got the setup from the guy I was talking about in the other thread, the wheel mounts on the back of an SFI balancer, same brand I'm currently using. The wheel needs to be perfectly centered, and balanced, to not impact balancer function.

Of course, technically, it invalidates the SFI rating, but doubt anyone would take a hit on it in a tech inspection.

The 80-81 301 timing cover has no timing marks, the whole standoff on the cover isn't there. That gives a person plenty of room to mount a pickup bracket in the OE location of the timing marks, and that is what I had planned to do when I was building the boosted engine. And they are available new.


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Looking like I'll be able to offer a pretty complete bolt on 12-1 kit, I'll post back soon but I'll leave the sensor up to the customer, also I'm not really looking to be a retailer but it's looking like that's the case to pull this off.

4 bolt Pontiac 12-1 trigger wheel (7.25" diameter)
Pontiac mounting brackets
Spacers for water pump and alternator

My GTO used to be ac, those people probably won't go this route anyways but if so they just make an ac pulley spacer, done.

I recently converted a dual sync setup to a dedicated crank trigger. I thought I'd post up a few pics on my setup.

I am using the dual sync now for cam signal only, with a COP/CNP 8 coil setup on the Pontiac V8.

ATI does sell a flying magnet shell with embedded magnets (pictured below), and as I already had the ATI balancer it was easy to upgrade. This approach does not change the pulley position, nor requires drilling any holes in an SFI balancer.

Note this is for a 3 hole serpentine pulley setup, not the Pontiac 4 hole V belt pulley.

I used 4 magnets with a 50 deg. reference angle, but you can also order the ATI shell with up to 12 magnets if you wish, but I don't see the benefit- having one magnet at TDC for each cylinder is all you really need for a V8, and having the single pulse cam signal from the dual sync means you can use full sequential injection.

The crank sensor is a Hall effect.

The brackets I machined mount to and replace the fuel pump block off plate, and allow adjustment of the sensor in 3 axes. I haven't had a chance to anodize the parts yet, but it's coming.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...e989701c_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...fcc678e6_c.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...bce3a0ae_c.jpg

I have a kit already done, bolt on 12-1 trigger wheel, timing cover bracket and L bracket for sensor. I'm waiting for my friend to send me the brackets for the first kits sale.

Great looking setup! I’ve suggested people use the ATI shell with integrated magnets if they want to retain an original style pulley set-up.

The set-up on my car works great. Like you I’m running an CNP set-up and I’m only using the dual sync for the cam signal.

I didn’t realize you were going to make the wheels as well. Looks great !

12-1 Crank Sensor Kits
 

Will your kit work with a March Serpentine kit with the Power Steering Pump ? Will it work with an Innovators West Balancer ?

12-1 wheel is 7.25", stock bolt pattern with plenty of holes option spacing and center circumference opening based on a real Pontiac balancer.

Brackets will bolt onto the timing cover and clear under the large stock crank pulley.

It wasn't created to make money, that's why the other company's said they didn't offer it for us, we wouldn't buy it. So since I wanted to run it, they challenged me to show them that others can do what they do and offer it at a similar price as the Ford and Chevy kits even at 25x less production numbers.

Not sure yet what is different about the March pulleys but it will fit any Pontiac balancer unless something was changed on it. Like any new kit, customized factors can change the fit.

I'm at the point of switching to a crank trigger and going away with the dual sync. Will be using the dual sync for cam only, would be nice if more people share specific info.

Couple references on the Holley forums that might be of help for some, figured I'd post since searching on that site is not very, um, fluid.

Synchronizing timing:

https://forums.holley.com/forum/holl...ng-Holley-EFI=

Mag & Hall effect setup:

https://forums.holley.com/forum/holl...-Sensor-Setup=

LSx 24x setup info:

https://forums.holley.com/forum/holl...ion=#post53735

Sample LSx 24 x 1 Cam setup using DIS:

LSx 24x Crank & 1x Cam "Custom" Ignition Parameters:
Ignition Type ....... - Custom
Crank Sensor Type - LSx 24 Tooth
Inductive Delay ... - 20.0 usec (← Adjust if necessary)
Timing Offset ...... - 0°
Cam Sensor Type . - Single Pulse (← Sequentially injected.)
Sensor Type ........ - Digital Falling (← Sequentially injected.)
Output Setup Type - DIS Coil on Plug
Dwell Time .......... - 3.5-5.0 msec

There's more info on that in the one thread link I posted.

Timing Offset and Reference Angle are basically the same thing. You leave your dual sync as adjusted for the 50 degree ref angle if you've already sync'd your initial timing (and cut you plug wire lengths) and use a Timing Offset value of 50. I haven't tried this yet, but I'm going to.

Different coils have different recommended dwell time values, one of those links have a link to the list. If you enter an incorrect dwell time value, it can impact timing.


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Just got off the dyno yesterday using the crank trigger setup shown in post #35 of this thread. The engine uses a Holley dual sync for the cam sensor. As we had problems with the dual sync crank signal on previous dyno runs, we switched to an external crank trigger using 4 magnets and a Hall effect sensor. The good news is that the new external crank trigger worked perfectly and solved all the problems we were having regarding crank signal.

However, the procedure to setup the dual sync part of the system (using the external crank trigger) is more complicated then you might expect. Here is a good video on how to do it properly, and this is the process we used with success on the dyno:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inQw...rmanceIgnition

Which Crank Sensor 'Type' selection did you use?

Here's the coil dwell info:

"See the “Crank and Cam Sensor” setup in the Holley EFI help instructions on properly setting up the
positions of the crank and cam sensors.
The following is recommended Dwell times for various GM coil PN’s:
Most coils can be set to a dwell time of 5.0 msec. Below are recommendations for various factory
GM LS coils based upon Holley testing:
The following coil should be set to a maximum of 5.0 msec:
 10457730
The following coil should be set to a maximum of 4.5 msec. A Value greater than this may cause the
coil to fire prematurely resulting in overly advanced ignition timing:
 19005218
The following coils should be set to a maximum of 3.5 msec:
 12573190
 12611424
 12570616
NOTE: If using the Holley® Smart Coils (P/N 556-112), please refer to the instruction sheet provided
with them for recommended dwell times"

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We experimented with coil dwell times between 4.0 msec and 5.0 msec. Didn't seem to make much difference so we set it at 4.5 msec and left it.

Great info in here!

Okay so upon reviewing my ignition parameters I think I need to do some work. My car runs great midrange and full throttle but is hard to start. It used to start okay on race gas but since switching the E85 its a pain. A few things I've noticed when looking at how mine is set up.

1. Inductive delay is set to 100.00 usec (which from what I've read is probably fine)
2. Timing offset is 12* (A video I watched said it shouldn't be more than 5*, and if it is I need to move the pickup on the crank trigger)
3. Crank sensor is set to digital rising and cam is set to digital falling (I believe they should be the same, preferably digital falling)
4. My Holley smart coils P/N 556-112 have the dwell set to 5.0 msec (See Holley's instructions below)

"Dwell Setting:
- For street cars below 1.5 HP per cubic inch, the dwell should be set to 4.0 msec.
- For cars that exceed 1.5 HP per cubic inch, the dwell should be set to 4.5 msec.
- For high boost, maximum effort drag race engines, the dwell can be set to 5.0 msec."

My engine is on E85 and is not a traditional "street" engine, but I do drive it on the street. Its got a ton of compression (13.8-1) and a healthy cam (272-283 .726" int .696" exh on 109LS). According to timeslip MPH I'm under the 1.5hp per cube mark though.

I'm thinking the dwell time is fine for my application but wouldn't mind input on the subject.

That sounds like really really high dwell. N/A I run 2 ms and run up to 3.5 ms over 3,500rpm. I wouldn't think you need over 4 ms unless you are pushing a lot of boost.

Coils will overheat with too much dwell time. Up until they overheat, there really isn't any downside to more dwell, except maybe more sparkplug electrode wear. Maybe I'm just overly cautious because some GM LS coils will "auto fire" over 4.5ms so I stay away from that number. And I'm sure Holley also does voltage compensation, so if your voltage drops on the top end it may add more dwell.

Wait, that's what you're using for a crank trigger and the dual sync for your cam sensor? That looks like out of box dual sync setup.

It can work, but did you sync your timing? And at RPM there's no timing shift/drift? Verified with a timing light?


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On inductive delay, there's no way you can use any out of the box or recommended setting, you just flat out have to check and adjust for every application. There's no way around that. Without doing that, it can retard or advance a VERY CONSIDERABLE amount, like 25-30 degrees.

" Synchronizing the EFI timing (laptop) with the engine timing (timing light):
NOTE: Temporarily disable the "Idle Spark" control (in Idle Settings).
1) Turn the distributor or adjust the crank trigger to synchronize the initial (idle) timing, then lock it down.
Next, ensure timing is synchronized at higher RPM using the EFI software.
NOTE: Now use the EFI software "Enable Static Timing Set". I use a Static Timing value of 25° or 30°.
2) Momentarily rev the engine, and watch the timing advance with your timing light. It shouldn't move.
If timing advances or retards, adjust the "Inductive Delay" until the timing maintains itself.
If the ignition timing retards, increase this value. If the timing advances, decrease this value.

SUMMARY: The initial (idle) timing is synchronized by turning the distributor or adjusting the crank trigger, and locking it down. The timing at higher RPM is synchronized by adjusting the Inductive Delay in the EFI software. The first synchronization is physical, and the second synchronization is electronic (Inductive Delay). Believe the timing light above all else, it's always the real timing (if there's a discrepancy). When finished, the timing as viewed on the laptop, should match what you see with the timing light, at all RPM.
Once the ignition timing is fully synchronized, the Timing Table can be tuned for each application."

This is not something you can guess at. If this isn't right, you will battle your tune into infinity, it will never be right.



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The crank trigger is 4 magnet - so yes single pulse/fire is the correct software setting. Same as the out of the box dual sync, well sort of. The ECU reads the wired crank sensor from the custom harness that ties into the 10 pin- this provides the remote crank trigger pulse to the ECU rather than getting it from the dual sync. As COP is used, the dual sync also lets the coils know TDC of # 1, and of course also the cam signal.

So yes, pretty much the same software wise as the out of the box dual sync, but some wiring and hardware changes.

Inductive delay is easily set, we start with the default 100 msec value and calibrate on the dyno with a timing light, easy peasy.