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1967 Pontiac 428 ci Block" Build or not to Build", Myself?
This is the one you have been waiting for, a comprehensive detailed "way to build a Pontiac Engine" from the bottom, the up is done already, by the best on the PY forum. Look to learn something that you never knew before: "narrated by Mike", in real time. All are welcome and say what you want, here there are little rules, just have fun.
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I would recommend getting the book in the link to get more familiar with the pontiac V8 and then find a good machines shop in your area that is familiar with pontiac v8s and If you don't know a good shop in your area start a new thread and ask the forum.
How to Rebuild Pontiac V-8s - Updated Edition (Cartech) https://a.co/d/gcTaxgc |
Your jumping the gun here!
A build can not take place until it is known what the condition of your parts are and then in turn what may need get remachined or replaced! The block and its internals need to go to a competent machine shop to be magnafluxed , looked over and measured for the needed tolerances. Do not toss out the old main and rod bearings as they can give a clue to the machine shop as to what may or may not be going on with the motor. I might not be a bad idea to hook up with other Pontiac folks down there who have successfully built a few Pontiac motors, especially if what they have built has lived through the rigors of racing . If you have not joined one of the many Pontiac clubs in Fl then that would be a good start as many of them have knowledgeable tech people in there ranks. |
Engine building involves close attention to detail, careful parts selection, and exact precision, at least if you want it to lead a long heathy life.
Right to start with assume nothing. Those heads that you had done aren't going to make the grade so plan on stripping them completely down and having a full set of guides put in them and new one piece valves, springs, etc. You can retain the Pontiac retainers and locks, nothing out there is any better and most of the aftermarket stuff considerably heavier. Toss that POS low end 3 keyway timing chain set in the nearest dumpster as well. I'd re-use the crank and outfit the engine with a good set of forged rods and modern forged pistons (all installed in the correct direction and orientation). Modern forgings with the right alloy can be ran nearly as tight as cast pistons and you get the better ring packs, much stronger parts and full floating so you don't have to "cook" the rods to press the pins in place. I'd stick with a flat tappet cam but insist on USA made lifters. If Comp is DLC coating them even better. The last couple of flat tappet engines I did here used camshafts that I sent out to be "coated". It's an ion-bond process and they come back looking like black chrome plated. Without any oil at all they claim lubricity equivalent to using 5W-30 motor oil. In any case it's cheap insurance and for the couple hundred bucks it costs if nothing else you'll sleep better at night. Plan on balancing the spinning assembly, and decking and squaring the block. Meaure the bores and locate good pistons in the desired over-bore size. During that deal establish tight quench (.035-.040") and the true static compression ratio so you can make the right cam choice so it runs fine on this new fuel. I've done more of these engines than most who will read this, and push for higher compression which makes more power at every RPM and allows for more camshaft with less negatives, so NOT part of the "lowering compression for pump gas then turn right around and install some short seat timing fancy whiz-bang lobe profile cam to get some of the lost power back" crowd. Like your way too long running thread on the FUBAR'D engine still sitting between the fenders you'll get a LOT of advice. Mine is simple and aside from a few upgrades with better rods/pistons/ring pack I'd keep it simple and fairly close to "stock" in many areas. I am NOT a big fan of roller rocker arms and have found most to be nothing but pieces of bovine excrement so stick with stock stamped steel with solid balls in them for most "mild" builds done here. If you go aftermarket the only ones I'd endorce are Crane Gold Race (not even sure if you can get them these days), Harland Sharp, or Crower Enduro. ALL others I've tried have failed someplace in long term service. Ya I know, lots of folks use all sorts of these imported junk rockers w/o issues but here I've have issues with everything that isn't listed above. I think what we see with this engine building thing is that few of these engines see very much actual time on them these days. Most owners take them out on a few nice Sunday afternoons for a burger and a coke, maybe hit a local Dairy Queen car cruise once or twice, and might stop by their local track a couple of Friday evenings for a "test and tune" session. A reality check is in order there for evaluating parts. 300 miles a year vs several thousand or more isn't going to tell you if anything that you used makes the grade. Not only did I build engines for almost half a Century I've had scores of them driven (usually limped up here), towed, trailered and dragged up here with issues right after "fresh" engine installs and NOTHING was working well. So I get to see these things at a user level and get to see what happens when poor choices are made and lack of attention to detail, using crappy parts, and poor attempts at establishing optimum timing and fuel curves to insure a good end result. In any case after many years of your engine not making the grade with mulitiple unsuccessful attempts to get it up to par, it's certainly time to remove it from the vehicle, open up the wallet and give it the time and attention it desperately needs.......IMHO...... |
Great thread and I look forward to your updates.
Good advice from others already. When you get the block and crank back from the machine shop don’t assume it is clean enough for assembly. Wash with hot water and soap, use rifle brushes to clean passages and keep cleaning until no grime appears on a paper towel. After cleaning spray machined surfaces with WD 40 to prevent flash surface rust. If you choose to go with higher compression make sure you know how to tune the AFR and timing to accommodate and of course consider what octane fuel is available to you. Plenty of threads for you to look at here to assist with that. This is an area where EFI will help as you can dial everything in precisely. Good luck with the build! |
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I have a feeling your gonna need more then 1 pan of Jiffy pop!
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If you keep the thread objective, maybe it will be as you wish.
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Keep it simple, listen to Cliff and you will be fine.
Make it over complicated and over think things and you will create your own problems. |
Schurkey says
You've rebuilt a TH400, successfully as best I can tell. You discovered issues with the main shaft that I didn't know existed; therefore you were clearly paying attention. The engine will be "similar but different". A TH400 is about the easiest 3-speed transmission on Earth to overhaul. An engine will require more special tools, more contracted-out remachining and inspection, and similar care in disassembly, cleaning, inspection, and reassembly. |
Build back better!
Paul K out |
Been doing this stuff for more than 60 years.My thought for Mike is to find a good machine shop that builds engines and have the short block built.Get a shop with good recommendations that will document all the numbers as far as clearances.Take it home and finish the build and break in.Find one CLOSE that you can stop by and watch the progress.JMO,Tom
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In my opinion, if you decide to build your own engine, you need two things: 1. A good book to take you step by step through the process. Either of the Rocky Rotella books would be great. Readily available. Jim Hand has an older book as well. 2. A machine shop with a GREAT track record that doesn't treat working on a Pontiac V-8 as being the evil, bastard stepchild of a Chevy. Some basic measuring tools, a clean work area, and a few low cost building tools and your all set. Good luck.
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Title seems to be asking The Forum, if you should build it yourself.
I vote "no." Find a qualified source. |
There ya go Mike, an engine dedicated thread. Now everything found wrong can be corrected and documented in one place.
Take the engine to a highly recommended shop for a tear down and inspection and report back what they found. Go from there. |
Build more.
Type less. |
No offense to anyone, but I think if a person needs to ask if they should take on a project like this, then they probably shouldn't.
OTOH, if having the motor done right the first time is not the priority and you are more looking for the learning experience and don't mind too much if you have problems along the way and maybe even a motor that fails, then go for it. But, if I were gonna do that, I wouldn't use any sort of rare or valuable block to learn on. |
I'm still confused how engines were ever built properly before the internet? I mean, everything that we would have left on the table during those dark times...
Find a good machine shop and listen to what they tell you. Then spend a bunch of money and save a lot of typing at the same time. Unless this is more of a memoirs thing for you and David Carradine. |
If I were contemplating building my first engine, I would get a junkyard Chevy 350 and do a cheap cast rebuilder piston job. Learn how to measure and assemble. If that went well and after driving it for a few years, I'd sell the Chevy and try doing something like a 428 build. But no way I'd start off with something like a 428 block on my first build. Walk first, run later.
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Agreed, ALL of these engines are nothing more than 8 pistons moving up and down in 8 holes. I've done multiple builds of each type over the years, Ford FE, Windsor, Cleveland, Buick, Caddy, Olds, Pontiac, AMC, International, butt-loads of SBC and a good many BBC builds, Mopar Wedge small and big block, and to be perfectly honest not a lot of differences between all of them when you break it right down to the fundamental stuff.
What tends to throw folks off with Pontiac builds in the front cylinder being # 2 instead of #1. As is with the case right here folks pressing on pistons and inserting them in the holes get that entire deal FUBAR'd way too often than it should be happening. That's why I mentioned "close attention to detail" in my first response. Nothing difficult about any of this, but you have to have enough common sense to put things back where they came from in the proper order and orientation....duh? |
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The SBC like it or not is a superior design in just about every area. Starting with the block being case solid across the lifter bores for tons of support/strength, excellent oiling system, light valve train components, small bearing diameters, good bore to stroke and rod length to stroke ratios, and the average SBC head (discounting a few of the poor flowing smog castings and some later "odd-ball" Vortec stuff) has the cross section and flow potential to make big power without going into the aftermarket. Then when you do go into the aftermarket the choices are nearly ENDLESS and also considerably less money than other brands.
You will also find PLENTY of good cores and if you want to go to the latest design (1986-up roller blocks with one piece rear seals) they powered every truck, blazer, tahoe and suburban that left the factory to 2000 when the LS program started to replace them.....and....as mentioned a very "basic" 350 build will make 400hp without much effort and not dent to wallet all that hard........ |
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“The up is done already by the best on the PY forum?” Is that from the previous thread? So the best is knurled guides, stock two piece valves with a valve job, and umbrella seals? If that is the direction for the 428 short block rebuild it might be time for a LS junkyard swap. The LS section on PY could use some more traffic. Wish you guys (Mike and Mike’s roommate the best of luck on this up coming New Years project. Happy new year! GiT R DONE! |
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Polished a stock crank by hand. Found a Weiand single plane intake for 75$ and I had a 750 DP carb for the deal. We did buy a Crower sft cam from Ace at PPR that was 165$. But this engine was not even bored. Since the stock 350 had cast pistons we were able to just have it ridged honed with tq plate and it cleaned up with proper clearance for the TRWs. It has to have over 370 HP, maybe more with tuning. All for under 1200$ Never did get it dialed in before his slicks were worn out though, so it sits. But you are not going to do that with a Pontiac, ever. Its in a 84TA so at least is came with a sbc. He wants to put a Pontiac under the hood real bad. He has a nice, complete 71 GTO 400 engine. I gave him a Eagle cast 4.25 crank and BHJ balancer. I have lots of roller rockers and cams ect I could donate. But it will cost him a whole bunch of money to get it all done with a Pontiac and I doubt he will ever be able to make it happen. I am trying to convince him to just run the chevy and have fun with it. The car has a 3 link with a 9", billet axles and my old N case with 4.10 spool. Nice T400 too, has one of my old converters thats perfect for a 455. Not so perfect for a 350 sbc though. With the stuff he has he could find a sbc 400 truck block and build a fast and reliable bracket engine far cheaper. His car does have the bolt holes for a 301 Pontiac, but when he finds out what that 71 GTO engine is worth he might sell it. Better than not racing at all. |
I'm always happy reading these threads for the good free advice.
I learn something new every time. Sent from my SM-A426B using Tapatalk |
Just remember to do some research and you'll be fine.
And never be afraid to ask questions about the brand your going to re-do. GT |
"With the stuff he has he could find a sbc 400 truck block and build a fast and reliable bracket engine far cheaper."
Stock 400 crank shined up with some 600 grit paper and a shoe lace, stock rods, light forged pistons, World Products Sportsman heads (untouched other than much better springs), Victor intake, 850DP carb, flat solid cam around 260-265 @ .050" on a 106LSA, stock points distributor (locked out) to trigger the 6AL box, stock $20 stock oil pump, $25 stock 3/4" wide timing set and into a good friends bracket car at 3400lbs race weight. Ran 6.50's @ 105-106 mph right off the trailer shifting at 5800rpm's. Didn't even bore that engine, just a light clean up with a hone and pressed the pistons in my shop press heating the small end of the short 5.56" rods with a propane torch. A true "shoestring budget" race engine with excellent returns for the dollar spent. He ran that engine for at least 10 seasons w/o touching it. Unrelated to the 428 build in question here other than it'll take at least twice the money to build this 428 for half the return. Even so 428's are good starting points for a nice Pontiac engine build. They will make the power of the larger 455's with some compression and a little bit more cam in them, and easier on the internals at the same time....... |
Before I can pull the motor, I have to modify the Engine hoist, because the boom won't extend far enough toward the rear of the steering. The nose of the 1979 Pontiac TA is deep. One could consider this to be a mid-mounted Motor, the front of the timing gear is at the rear of the foot of the steering gear? Note: the question mark please. I have noticed from the start that the distributor has little to no clearance to the fire wall.
I tried to go in from the side and that did not work either. I found a galvanized pole in the shed and it fit inside the extended boom and now sticks out enough, I hope, to pull the motor. We through bolted the new system and I braced the top with an additional chain that is bolted over the top, to stop any bending that could occur while lifting the short block, that I think weighs about 350 lbs. We painted the HD chain that I had in the shed, so that I may hang it on the original Hoists hook for negative lifts, for example: I install the Hoist on my car hauler and lift an engine block off the street in the future, while scrapping metal, a side job we do. I have decided to take this Engine apart in my shed, but I still have to find the apparatus that holds the engine to the stand, the same stand that I modified to rebuild the trans. I have not seen that engine mount for the engine stand in years, it might have been in the van when the tools got stolen? I will have to shop for that part next. I am tooling up for the job and I believe that I have every tool to rebuild the 1967 Pontiac 428ci HO. If it needs boring then to the shop it goes and new Pistons it will get. I am not yet sure how much of a build this is going to be. I do want the experience of pulling it apart and keeping it in order as I do. While the motor is out, we will be able to do an even better job detailing the engine compartment. I am curious about what color the Motor compartment came from the factory in 1979 Pontiac TA? |
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I would add this: One can't just install the parts as they came out, especially in my case where Pistons are backwards and at least one Rod is as well. However, thanks to the forum, Mike has the heads up on that issue... |
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I see your point; however, I have experience with 5 times motor rebuilds and installations, plus one TH 400 Trans. build, that we just successfully built. I have never installed the Crank and piston rings etc.., But I believe we are ready for this new experience, I have the tools, might as well put them to work. A good idea would be to start the motor on the stand prior to the installation? Also, I see that Butler sells the entire kit, all I need to do is to choose the kit for me. After we use the micrometer on the used parts, we would use plaster gauge for the crank and Rod journals, of course. This I will do in my own shop and then make some phone calls and get the forums input. If the block needs boring, then the question is what Piston size to go with and what Journal Bearing size. Since I just bought the new Harmonic Balancer and Flexplate, I would stick with the externally balanced route. The machine shop needs to let me know if the Crank needs to be turned and if I need a line bore. Then what the bore size (if any) needs to be and I could buy the kit with a new rear main seal, of course. Since the Heads were knurled, I could bring them back and get them redone with solid Brass stems installed and the exhaust valve bosses cut for their proper seals. As a matter of fact, since the Head Mechanic told me that he was cutting the Exhaust bosses back and changed his mind, because I did not know any better at the time, I feel he owes me that. I read a book on building a small block chevy when I built my 327 ci that got stolen on my first build. I have been watching engine build shows for ten years, plus videos on You Tube. |
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Before it's too late, have him search for an old Pontiac in the junk yard and pull the 428 ci motor. |
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Research is the basis of my Pontiac experience over the last ten years or so, keeps me learning and I am not through, for example: "who would have thought that pistons could slap and could be installed backwards on purpose"? |
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From a monetary perspective, "If I need to bore this 428 ci motor at all, would it be more cost effective to bore as much as I can and while using the "041" Cam and the existing Heads or is it more cost effective to go higher in Cam and Piston bore size, because it won't cost that much more to do so"? P.S. The only limit I have is that the Heads are stock rebuild. My original thought is to lightly build this motor and sell it to someone who needs a 1967 Pontiac YK code 428 ci HO stock as can be, as it has the "041" Cam installed. Then I use those funds to buy or build a Pontiac Motor that is comparable to today's HP ratings. In any case, this Engine is being rebuilt, to what HP rating is yet to be determined. |
Mike - Unrelated but I have to ask- why do you write “Mike’s reply” before each reply post?
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Why didnt pulling from the side work? Have done that many times on these cars if the puller cant reach due to the nose. Or, as a last resort can pull the nose if you cant figure out how to pull the engine from the side.
Extending the boom beyond what its designed for can risk other problems... |
I see you have a "Chevy" book you referred to in a post. I would still recommend a Pontiac specific rebuild book like the Rocky Rotella book. Great resource. Engine family specific. Your machine shop should be capable of machining away the knurl they put in the original valve guides. If they didn't crack the guides trying to knurl them, new thin wall bronze liners can be installed. Low cost and easy to do.
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There is no way that I was disassembling the front end of this vehicle. The hoist did not reach from the front or the side, it is a one Ton "not" a two ton. The boom was too short to carry the load, in my opinion. What we did was to build for the future use when I use it with my other Trailers. For example: when we needed scrap metal or lift something lower than the trailer. This lift will be able to negative lift from the flatbed trailer, off the street and then back on to a flatbed trailer. I added length to the existing short boom by adding a galvanized fence type pole to the overall length, that was in the shed and we added a chain over the top to carry the additional load. So, it won't bend while lifting a heavy load and it will be safe to work with. I will have photos soon. We have a HD chain that we painted black as an accessory, plus extra hooks that we had around the house. I tend to over build than under build. We also spent the extra cash purchasing the engine leveler from Harbour freight. The total cost was $305. P.S. We added additional shim metal at the two junction points, where the metal tube meets tube and the tube meets the pole pipe. No loose joints and it is fully disassemble-able. The plan when finished building the Hoist is to lift the short Block and hold it in place so we can disconnect the Trans. from the Engine and place it over the motorcycle jack that we used before and then secure the Trans. to the jack with rope. We use a metal hanger and an empty soda bottle against the Torque converter to hold it in place, so we don't lose contact between them. It is hard enough to get that right in the first place, especially when the TQ is non- bushed. For those of you that don't know the difference. My 1967 Th 400 has the larger Input shaft, that carries the Stator turbine within the TQ itself. One must spin the TQ in a CW direction and lift it, at the same time, to get it into the pump gear correctly. Once that is done you, don't want to lose that assembly, thus the reason to take care using the water bottle trick, that I learned at Trans. shop, from one of the mechanic's, on disassembly. |
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I have never had to do so much writing and as an artist, I like to be original and unique in my style. Granted, I will never win the Pulitzer Prize, though. |
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Excuse me if I am wrong, I thought that the original valve guides in my motor were part of the Head itself and that when the Head mechanic knurled them it was directly to the holes drilled in the Heads valve guide area? In other words, I was under the impression that the factory Heads never came with guides stock, that that is an aftermarket thing to do? Correct me if you will, please. P.S. I only read the "how to build a small Block Chevy" and am going by memory. I do have the 1967 service manual on disc and a Chilton's book, plus information in my archives to help in the build. There are videos and tons of info. from the various forums if needed. I research as I build and measure twice and cut once. Butler performance sells a kit with everything that I need and I will be getting their input as well. I am tempted to take a ride to Georgia, it has been some time since I took a road trip. I have yet to search my area for a competent Pontiac Machine shop. As far as the Heads go, to the shop that did the original work they go. I told him to remanufacture the Heads as they did from the factory, the only thing he skimped on was the Exhaust Boss (cut back) and seal correctly. He owes me that and I will remind him that was the original plan, he took advantage of my lack of knowledge and I will remind him of that. OfCourse, I will get the price to install the Brass valve guides first. |
Save yourself a lot of headache & heartache, pick up Rocky Rotella’s how to rebuild a Pontiac book in the very least. I know from your previous threads you like to over analyze these things but at least arm yourself with a good foundation whether you do the build yourself or work with a machine shop. Rocky’s book is required reading for anyone looking to build or pay someone to build a Pontiac motor IMO.
https://www.amazon.com/How-Rebuild-P...ps%2C95&sr=8-6 |
All heads have valve guides, its what seals the valve stem and is different material than just raw cast iron from a hole drilled in the head. New valve liners as mentioned above would fix the knurled guide issue... however I have owned budget rebuilt engines with knurled guides and seen countless others that went 10s of thousands of miles with no issues. But new guides or liners are the better option.
ANY reputable/competent machine shop can build a pontiac or any other make engine, doesnt need to be a "pontiac machine shop." There are only a couple things specific to pontiacs, like the rear galley oil plug, the principals for building the engine are no different than any other brand. Might save you some time & frustration asking shops if they are a pontiac machine shop. |
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Our goal is to pull out the 1967 Pontiac 428 ci HO with a 1966 Tri-power Intake and Rochester Carbs. this weekend, we are putting the last coats of black paint on the modified Hoist from Harbour freight. So many decisions to contemplate here, once I micrometer the Engine, we all will know more of what direction to take, with this tired Timepiece. I believe that I can depend on Butler performance to sell me a complete rebuild kit, using the parts that they suggest, this way there won't be any excuse for using faulty parts that fail, before their time. I would like to use all the parts that I have purchased over the past ten years, as this is a light build, If I want Real HP, I just assume start from scratch, using the amalgamation of aftermarket parts, that are specific to Pontiac, starting with a KRE Block, for example. I have no problem with an over bore with new Pistons and Rods and all new bearings plus a rear main seal. I want to keep every other part that I have invested in over the years including the Harmonic Balancer and Flexplate that I just replaced. The Heads are going back to receive the Brass Valve guides plus the exhaust Valve bosses will be cut back and properly sealed, for a complete long-lasting proper overall remanufactured Head job. I told the rebuilder that he should shim the springs for even spring pressure. This way when I do decide to sell this motor, I will undoubtedly know it is built correctly. I will install the engine in this vehicle and test and tune it to perfection, I might as well do that at the Track. That will be a new experience for me, I believe that I might even like it. |
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I just got through purchasing the "How to build a Pontiac Engine, book" by Rocky Rotella. It has been a long time since I picked up a book, I would say that the last time was when I took the Drafting course at Atlantic Voc-tech in Coconut Creek Fla. in the late 90's, approx. Lou, is outside setting the engine Hoist up for tomorrow afternoons lift, while we uncouple the Th 400 Trans. from the motor first and lower it onto the motorcycle jack that doubles for a Trans. jack, in our case. I still need to research an engine stand-motor mount to stand, that went missing some time ago? You said: "I know from your previous threads, that you like to over analyze things". Mikes reply: I am a deep thinker at times, that is because I have had to solve each and every dam problem on this second-hand project, that has become a nightmare. From Pistons installed backwards, Rod orientated wrong, plus all the other wrong issues my predecessor created for me to fix, over the last ten years, as if I did not have enough to do already! |
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IMO, you're best off selling as it is right now, standard bore and ready to build (sell the used 041 separately). Buy the KRE and be dollars ahead. Extended one ton engine hoist? :doh: |
If you have not read a book since the freaking 90s AND you need a book to rebuild a Pontiac............... SELL IT.
Let someone do it right that wants to do it right. Do not waste precious cylinder bore on something you plan on selling. Here is how it works with Pontiacs, you build the engine and they are worth less than it cost you to build it by far ! Unless you are a pro and have your own equipment, and you are neither its a losing deal. I could probably sell my new engine for 7-8K. It cost me 12-15 K to build the thing ! Maybe more. And grown men, roommates ? ?? KRE block ? Good luck finding any new iron aftermarket block these days. You will find 5000$ aluminum blocks. |
Smart move buying Rocky’s book. It’ll be big help after reading help on you deciding to build or just sell.
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When Mike finds out how much needs to be done to a aftermarket block he might want to reconsider.Tom
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