New member of the 400 Failed Lifter club
 

I’m sad to report that the Flat Tappet Hydraulic Lifter Catastrophic Failure Club has a new member. The 400 in my ’64 Bonneville convertible chewed up the number 7 exhaust lifter pretty good. The motor was built just about 20 years ago but only has about 4,000 miles on the clock. I got tons of advice back then from this very forum. Old Man Taylor, TATodd, Tom S. And so many more, all answered tons of questions. So I’m back for fresh advice. Reading through the forum, it looks like a lot has changed in the high performance Pontiac world over the last 20 years.

I’ll need some advice on what may have caused this and what to do next. So far, I’ve only gone so far as pulling the intake and valley cover and pulling the bad #7 exhaust lifter. There was close to a quarter of an inch ground off that lifter so I know the motor has to come out for proper cleaning, how far do you guys go? Complete strip down? Do you typically replace all the bearings? Rings?

Does the fact that it was the last camshaft lobe mean anything?

Part two: Need new cam advice.

I’m also looking for new cam selection advice. I was considering a roller cam but, wow, what a price difference. Is it worth it? Stick with Flat Tappet? I’m strictly a street, no strip driver and getting older so much more of a cruiser these days. I’m looking for a reliable motor that pays respect to the legendary Pontiac power.

Here are my current specs:

1964 Bonneville convertible (3,985 lbs.) 400 engine block. 62 heads with some port work. This motor belonged to an old friend that passed away almost 30 years ago. He used to street race it in his 64 GP with nitrous so it absolutely needed a rebuild by the time it got to me. He did the cylinder head port work himself.

According to the receipts from my rebuild, the engine has L2262 .030 pistons and a Comp Cams 275 DEH Dual Energy HFT cam with Comp Cams High Energy 852-16 lifters. Do these pistons give me too high compression for street?

The 62 heads have ARP rocker studs, guide plates, 1.52 Comp Cams roller tip rockers and have had port work. Springs have 120 lbs seat pressure.

1966 Tripower, spec’d by Old Man Taylor. Mallory distributor, MSD box.
Exhaust is factory cast iron long branch headers and a pair of nice mufflers.

The transmission is a 700r4 rebuilt with B&M components and a B&M Holeshot 1900-2100 stall locking torque converter. 4.10 posi rear end. With about a 29” tall rear tire (255/70-15)

The car had tons of power early on, almost too much for my driving style, but, man, was that idle a sexy rumble. Recently it felt like it was gradually dropping in power and had trouble with detonation. (failing lifter cause the detonation? Or is it due to that high compression ratio and today’s gas?)

Thanks!

No matter what you decide to do, unless already done so I would suggest you check your current valve spring pressures. Tested with their retainers in place at their verified installed height.
Valve springs can lose pressure over time.

If the decision is made to upgrade to a hydraulic roller cam new valve springs will be in order, and with a presumed increase in their pressure used.


.

As Steve said I'd be curious on valve spring pressures too.
Since it was built 20 years ago can't necessarily blame it on faulty parts, a very slim chance anyway. Only 4000 miles tells me it sits a bunch so a lot of extended sitting cold starts comes to mind. Not that that's the problem but not the best thing for it either.

Probably the why isn't all that important to you now, just gotta cover your bases 2nd time around.

Big Pontiac cruiser.

I know I’ve recommended this cam a hundred times or more but for a mild street engine looking for longevity use a factory low-lift lazy lobe 9779068 cam. The more aggressive fast acting lobe aftermarket grinds are more likely to fail compared to the gentle factory grinds as you can understand.

Put the Mellings SPC-7 in it with the highest quality lifters and a new set of springs and drive on. You’re probably spending 95 percent of your time between 1000 and 3000 rpm, this cam will fill the bill. It’s not like the cars that came factory equipped with this cam were slow, they more than held their own on the streets.

Thank you all for the quick responses.
Steve, the 120 lb spring pressure was written on the receipt by the head builder 20 years ago. I figured if it came down to pulling the motor to scrub oil passages, I would send the heads to a machine shop with new springs and have him confirm/set the new spring height and pressure.

Formulajones, I agree it's hard to blame faulty parts in a 20 year old build. I hadn't heard anything about faulty lifters back then like I do now. This car did sit, sometimes for years at a time. I had really screwed up the paint job on it back then and parked it until the pandemic when I pulled it out and repainted it and fell back in love with it.

b-man, That all makes sense. I will put the Melling SPC-7 on my list. Is there a known go-to highest quality lifter that you all use with this cam? I'm wild guessing a 10:1 CR with my 62 (72cc) heads and those L2262 pistons, does that combination work with that cam alright?

And do you all suggest pulling the motor to do a deep clean? Would you install new bearings or rings? I know I want to replace and update some gaskets and the rear seal as I was getting some drips from it.

Johnson Hylift lifters, I used the same ones along with a NOS 068 cam in my 421 HO build.

Tear it down and do rings and bearings for sure. There are a lot of metal shavings in there. You’re already sealing everything up again so it makes sense to break the glaze on the cylinders and install rings properly gapped and new bearings. This also gives you a chance to inspect your bearings for signs of detonation damage and adjust either the compression down a little by cutting a small dish in the pistons or upping your fuel octane.

You could also have someone competent rework the combustion chambers to add a few ccs of volume to drop the compression a little rather than play with the pistons which could get damaged during the process which likely includes pressing the pins to remove and reinstall them on the rods. Checking the combustion chamber volume at the very least will confirm your actual compression ratio, those #62 heads usually are somewhere in the neighborhood of 76 to 78ccs before resurfacing.

The 068 was used on plenty of 10:1+ compression engines from the factory, it has long seat to seat timing and is pretty friendly with 10:1 engines and especially ones with lower gears like you have.

check the filter first.Tom

Agree, originally, my 400 had this exact combination, 62 heads and 0.030 L2262's. The SPC-7 worked very well & was 93 octane pump gas friendly.

Odd’s are that since that motor had only 4K on it and no doubt was well maintained during those 4000 or so miles I would have to say it’s just a case of number 7 not braking in as well as all the others when the motor was run for those first critical 20 minutes.

With all that cast iron metal grit in the motor it should all come down so everything can be inspected and the oil galleys flush out and the crank oil passages need to be brushed and flushed out.

Hopefully your piston skirts are ok as well as the cylinder walls.

I recently read an article in Hemmings Muscle Machines about using proper break in oil, especially for flat tappet cams. Most people know you should not use standard auto parts store oil for an engine with flat tappet lifters. For a flat tappet cam you need an oil that has a high ZDDP additive package to protect the cam and lifters not only during break in but throughout the life of the engine. There are a few different companies that offer this oil that has the high ZDDP levels to protect flat tappet cams. For those who may not know oil now days is formulated for fuel economy and catalytic converters, the higher ZDDP additive package significantly reduces the life of the catalytic converter which is another reason they took most of the ZDDP out of the oil. The modern engines have closer tolerances are are made to run on thinner oil. For my wife's Toyota RAV 4, Toyota says she must use 0-16w oil. All modern cars also run roller lifters and they don't have the extreme high pressure metal to metal contact of a flat tappet cam so it's ok to lower the ZDDP package. Now here is the detail that most people get wrong. For break in, especially for a flat tappet engine you need to us NON-DETERGENT break in oil. If you get the good oil with the extra ZDDP but it's not specifically non-detergent break in oil the detergents in the oil wash away the ZDDP at the most critical time during the first few minutes during cam and lifter break in. So make sure you use the right break in oil and also use a high ZDDP formulated oil for the life of the engine. You won't find this oil at Autozone, or O'Rileleys of NAPA, or Walmart either. Don't use diesel oil in your car as the type of ZDDP additives for a diesel engine is not the same additive. There are two basic types of ZDDP a fast acting and a slow acting, oil formulated for diesel engine uses the slow acting ZDDP and it doesn't provide the same level of protection for a gas engine with flat tappet cams. I'm no expert, this is coming from the article and personally I take it as good advice. While were talking about flat tappet cams most people know there is a specific break in procedure for flat tappet cams. The cam lobes and lifter face are not pressure oiled like the rest of the engine is and rely on splash oiling from the crankshaft. That is why you need to get the engine started right off no excessive cranking because the carb was not primed or the timing isn't right, and you don't let it idle during break in. You need to keep the RPM between 1500 and 2000 RPM for the first 20 minutes. if your engine is getting too hot or you need to make adjustments it's OK to shut if off and continue when everything is right. One more thing, valve spring pressure, if it's too high that's enough to destroy the ca/lifer during break in and it might not show up right away. Most failure is at break in and you might not know it until it continues to wear away to a point that it's really knocking on your door telling you something ain't right. Beware of running high lift long duration flat tappet cams, in most cases if your going that direction hyd roller may be a better choice. For mild performance cams like the 068 for example flat tappet may work fine. Butler Performance will build you a complete engine but they won't build an engine with a flat tappet cam. Hmmmm seems there is a message in there some place.

It sounds like the 068 Melling SPC-7 cam with Johnson Hylift lifters is the way to go if I want to keep a hydraulic flat tappet cam. For valve springs, do I have to measure spring height before selecting?

So it looks like the block will be taking a trip to the machine shop, have them install new cam bearings and a quick cylinder wall hone for the new rings (if I'm lucky and the walls and skirts are not scored too deep) Anything else I should be considering?

Tim Corcoran, I hear what you're saying about the proper break in oil and the zddp. I intend to use the best available to me when I fire this up. I'm pretty sure I followed the best advice 20 years ago as well but that may have involved pouring in a bottle of "break in" treatment with standard detergent oil. I know a lot has changed for us in the last 20 years. I also hear what you're saying about Butler not building engines with a flat tappet. Part of me is scared of these flat tappet cams and wants to go roller but I have heard some negative things about them, some excessive valvetrain noise complaints, some catastrophic failures, and the cost is quite a bit more than the HFTs. This is my first lifter failure and I definitely do not want another!

If this was me, I'd pay the extra money for either a roller cam/lifters, or AT MINIMUM have the camshaft nitrided. Years ago, that was about a hundred bucks--about doubled the cost of the cam. I don't know what it costs now.

Crower springs ok for 068?
 

Are CROWER 68404 springs good for a stock rebuild with 068 or 067?

Wanna avoid risk of failure and like you said Bman, most driving will be between 1000 and 3000 RPMs....

X 2. I wouldn’t use a flat tappet cam unless it was nitrided. I don’t know if it’s defective cam cores or lack of proper parkerizing that is causing the problems, but nitriding will take care of both,

I'd read that a roller cam/lifter set up adds about $1,000 to the combination once you add up everything needed.
If I stick with the flat tappet, nitriding just the lifters at $50 a pop adds about $800 to a flat tappet cam set up. I don't know how much it costs to nitride a camshaft.

I'd love to hear from people that have actually done any of these, good, bad and ugly.

Make sure the FT lifters rotate easily in their bores

Regarding nitrading, have you read this thread?
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...ight=Nitrading

Cliff had some sort of coating applied to a HFT cam, been a while back, hopefully he will respond.

I nitride all the flat tappets I've done here. On top of that I prefer a lifter with a direct lube option as well. This puts pressurized oil right on the face of the lobes so you aren't relying on just splash lube, especially in idle conditions.

Been doing this for years and is currently done on both of our daily drivers with over 100,000 miles between them to date. Still running perfectly.

As far as cost it starts getting spendy. Nitriding the cam used to be $100 just a few years ago but it's now double that. Lifters that lube the cam can be as much as $300-$400 or so. Ya get what ya pay for I guess. None of this stuff is cheap to do anymore. I won't do a flat tappet without these options but typically I do rollers on most builds and just bite the cost. I really don't worry about failures, that's honestly few and far between.

Roller lifters have few and far between failures? I bet they are on par with the FT failures just lack the density in people running them.

These engines were designed to use a FT cam and that is a fact. Sure you can run roller but don't expect it to solve all your problems because it won't. Don't get me wrong though if I saw no roller failures i'd be running them.

What about the DLC coated FT lifters coming out? Could be a game changer.

The other issue with a roller set up is that it’s overkill for a stock type rebuild with a stock cam or a person wanting to do a simple cam swap to hot rod their old cruiser. The cost is prohibitive & it requires some head work for springs & studs then a new gear for the distributor plus a valley pan possibly, plus, plus, etc, that’s beyond what most folks will do for a weekend cam swap in the garage. Hopefully more manufacturers start utilizing DLC coated lifters so the guy who wants an 068 to upgrade from his 066 has a viable path for a small upgrade that will last & not break the bank.

If the lifter ground down like the one on my picture the failure is related to a soft lifter... Lifter issues popped up around 1990 due to Corporate cost cuts, then continued on. They wore out all of the excuses and finally most folks figured out the lifter manufactures (actually bottom line profits) were to blame. This was after Chevrolet had a slew of failures in the 80's.


IMO you could still be in a better situation than if you went with a HR set up.... When those go they can take the block out with them. So you still have a good block and you saved a bunch of dough over the HR set up.


Good luck with the next go around. Now is the time to improve on the cam choice if there were any short comings with the last cam.

Just an FYI on this, modern oils still have close to 90% of what older oils had for zddp, old oil was about 1300 ppm zddp, most name brand modern oils have 900-1000ppm, which is plenty of zddp for most stock to mild FT cams. However, there are other modern additives like moly that handle extreme pressures of FT cam/lifters, as well as newer advanced zddp that lasts longer than the older type so not as much is needed which allows lowered levels, valvoline explains this in their FAQ section.
Adding a bunch of zddp additive, can cause other problems as explained in many oil articles and one very good article that was posted recently on another thread here. Stock-mild cams that are already broken in do not need special high zddp oils, most are "race" type oils like VR1. I have been running ~.480 lift cams on good regular oil for over 20 years with no cam/lifter or other engine problems at all.

Also, oil detergents dont "wash away" zddp, zddp is in the oil and is always circulating to parts, high detergent may wash the oil iteself off some parts or not stick to parts as well, but the zddp is still there doing its job.

Some of these specialty oils are available at auto zone or many other places, even walmart, but again, there is no reason or benefit to using a race type oil with super high zddp for a stock or smaller size cam, modern oils have plenty of zddp both new & old types as well as other anti wear additives to compensate for slightly lowered amounts... plus all modern oils have far better base stock oils than even 15 years ago, with a better base stock oil not as many wear additives are needed. Use a break in oil or a good regular oil with an additive specifically designed for FT cam break in like comp, crane or lucas, then run whatever good brand oil you like after break in... if you want to run race oil in your mostly stock engine thats fine too but its overkill & not needed for this situation.

My personal experience is I have used regular oils both synthetic & conventional in pontiac engines with stock cams as well as what I consider mild cams with around .480 lift, I drive 2 of them regularly, 1 is almost 15 years old with a comp XE .480 lift cam, other is the original cam/internals on a turbo 301, also had a 455 back in the 90's that had the snot beat out of it daily for close to 80k+ miles, pulled the motor after crashing the car & cam lifters looked like new, sold the cam/lifters to a guy who ran it for many years after. Also had a jeep 4.0 with a FT cam about the same size as smaller stock pontiac cams, drove that on the cheapest oil & spin on filters i could find on sale for 15+ years & over 200k miles, sold it 5 years ago & still see it driving around town today. Both cars have lots of harder street miles & some drag strip time.

All that on regular modern oils that " took most of the zddp out of the oil"... also used diesel oil in the 400 for many years without any issues at all, people have been using diesel oils for 20+ years in these cars with zero problems related to fast or slow acting zddp.

Just wanted to provide some accurate info on some of the false statements that still get repeated regarding modern oils or stock cams needing crazy high levels of zddp or race oils. The quality of lifters and making sure the break in process is done right are the main factors in a successful cam break in. The combo of oil or additives is important too but there are many options for that, I used good regular oil & the comp cam break in additive with great results, some just use normal oil & a can of STP or GM EOS.

Edit- Found the oil article I mentioned, its kinda long but covers many aspects of oil viscosity, base oils & zddp additives. "Kenth" posted this on another thread. https://www.widman.biz/uploads/Corvair_oil.pdf

I really appreciate all the good advice and information thank you guys. I was relieved that the first suggestions were budget friendly hydraulic flat tappet (the 068 Melling SPC-7 camshaft.) I know there are hundreds of thousands of cars with millions of miles with that technology so I'm not afraid to try them again.

I do like roller rocker technology for all the above mentioned reasons and I'd love to hear more real life experiences converting Pontiacs to rollers. Are you happy with the conversion? is the valvetrain noise excessive? Do you still like your idle exhaust note? ( I installed a roller cam crate SBC in my '58 pick up. 400 hp on their dyno, humms like a sewing machine. No personality, I miss the lopey idle!)

For Nitrided cams, do the lifters have to be Nitrided as well? Has anyone done this? Formulajones, who makes a lifter with the direct lube option? My wife's tiny MG motor has an aftermarket rifle drilled, cross drilled camshaft that provides lube to the lifters via the cam lobes. Not factory at all but it makes me sleep better.

Going back to why this may have happened, I have a windage tray on this motor. Do I need it? Does it limit the oil splash that I hear lubricates the camshaft? And I also don't have the "drippers" (?) that bolt on the head and sit over the rocker arms. I have factory chrome 1964 valve covers (with a spacer to clear the rockers) Could that have led to the failure?

Here's a look at the failed number 7 exhaust lifter.

Wow ... with that much wear I'd guess the lifter/lobe failed the moment it was first started. Probably wasn't rotating from the get-go.

Any lifter issues I've had have usually been with cylinder 6 or 8.

Hard to prove why the lifter failed, could be any of the common reasons like bad lifter/cam metal. less than ideal break in process and slowly over 4000 miles it went bad. wrong rocker arm adjustment. sitting so long with dry starts & short run time causing water & fuel dilution to the oil. or a combination of things.

The windage tray shouldnt hinder oil splash to the cam, v/c drippers are only for rocker oiling. You dont really need the windage tray if you use a baffled pan, especially on a lower rpm street cruiser, if the pan is non baffled then keep the tray but have it inspected for cracks.

The roller lifter noise was or is associated with certain brands or types of lifters, mostly the early 1st gen comp 857 lifters, i had a set that made a slight ticking sound when hot similar to rhodes lifters, i replaced them with the 2nd gen comp 857-s lifter that are very quiet running the suggested 10/30 oil, only have very minor tick when engine is fully heat soaked & ran hard on a hot day, but is hardly noticeable over the exhaust noise. Comp & other brands have newer gen lifters now that are supposed to be much better than the old ones.

The added cost of a roller cam is about double of a high quality FT set up but is worth the peace of mind of FT failures IMO... yes roller lifters can go bad too but it is very rare when compared to FT cam failures. For a street cruiser a FT cam is probably the best option.

I don't know. The extra cost for a HR vs HFT is probably about $1500 more for the cam, lifters, rockers and valley pan. If you have a HFT failure and you're able to identify that before the motor is in the car that will still cost you more than $1500. Way, way more than that if it's back in the car. And, sure, if you do all the work yourself, it won't be as much money but a lot of extra work. And, if you did a HFT and let's say it failed during break in, would you feel comfortable, redoing it with another HFT, or would you be more likely to go HR? All of those factors are probably why Butler and other builders won't do HFTs anymore.

Yikes :eek:, agree, seems something was amiss early on. Those lifters look like the ones from 1983 in my post below.

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...d.php?t=841743

I'm running these right now with a Summit 2801 cam. Very quiet. My go to is JGR Driven Assembly Grease & Comp cams break in oil.

I know how the lifter got *that bad*-my one bonehead fault! (valuable lesson below) But I don't know what caused it to start failing in the first place. The motor was built 20 years ago and it did spend a lot of time parked but it had been great since I started driving it regularly in the summer of 2020. Long bonehad story below:

My wife and I were out on a slow neighborhood cruise one afternoon and I heard what sounded like a tire going flat but I could tell it was engine speed related so I eased it back home. Listening carefully under the hood I pinpointed the sound to the passenger valve cover. I popped off the valve cover, found the #7 exhaust rocker quite loose and figured the valves just needed adjustment (too much time around little British cars, I'd say.) So BONEHEAD ME, I adjusted all of them, and *thought* something was strange about how much I had to adjust that particular rocker. (Hindsight, I should have known something was really wrong right then and there) But the engine fired up and sounded normal again. That night we took the L.A. freeways 20 miles to get ice cream, even cruised the Bob's Big Boy Friday night car gathering on the way home, all was great. In the morning we took it 15 miles uphill on the freeway to a cars and coffee and I thought I heard the sound coming back so after the meet we took the streets back . The sound definitely came back, slightly louder than it was the first time I heard it. As I was pretty much idleing it back down the hill, I gave it just a hint of gas to get around a cyclist and BAM that lifter must have really given up right there. It sounded like a big explosion with every revolution. I immediately shut off the motor and coasted to a stop. I pulled the valve cover, had my wife fire it up and could see that rocker not rocking. Pulled the pushrod and it was straight as an arrow so I knew it was cam lobe or lifter, Called AAA, towed her home and here we are today.

So, lesson for anyone reading this in the future, if your rocker arm is way out of adjustment and it's not because your rocker nut has backed off, stop right there, it's probably a bad lifter.

Damn, good advice. I just broke in a summit 2801 on Saturday/. I used comp lifters I had from 20 years ago though.

Did you pull inner springs or do anything special during break in? I will need to break in an SPC-8 cam soon….

i wiped a cam on a sbc years ago, just changed the cam, lifters, and oil .... drove it for several more years and never noticed an issue ... oil pressure was good and the car ran great.

probably just got lucky ....

I"ve had a few cam failures, beginning with my '57 Olds in 1962. Nearly all '57 Old's cams failed due to excessive spring pressure from the factory. Also my '64 GTO in the mid '70's and my '77 400 in a Grand Safari wagon. In each case, I replaced the cam & lifters and ran the engines for many thousands of miles.

When a lifter or cam fails, isn't it logical that the metal chips go directly to the oil pan? Some will get lodged in the pump inlet screen, some will get captured in the oil filter. Does a cam failure always call for engine disassembly, cleaning of the oil galleries and replacement of main and rod bearings? My guess is that thousands of cams/lifters have failed and were replaced without an engine teardown.

Opinions?

First cam I installed on my engine a few years ago (Melling 068, Johnson Lifters) I had one lifter not turning on the stand during breakin. Immediately bought a new Melling 068 and a set of Melling lifters ... next attempt went fine, and still seems fine with very low mileage on it.

When I tore down the original engine with 100k miles on it, all the OEM lifters were dished, one so bad it was starting to wear through the bottom of the lifter ... car ran fine, and didn't even make noise. It was well maintained and I knew the previous (original) owner.

I'd say that #7 was leading the pack and failed first but would also bet that the remaining 15 lifters and lobes are all showing varying stages of failure.

Seat pressure isn't what kills flat tappet assemblies and base circles of the cam after a failure usually looks pretty normal. It's the open pressure that wears the lifter and failure point is the nose of the cam. Not all springs are created equal and you can have satisfactory seat pressure but the spring rate might result in too high of open pressure. Using stock length valves and stock installed heights really requires that the correct spring be used and not something on steroids. My target is usually around 115 pounds on the seat and 260 open for a mild flat tappet like the 068. It is easy for some strong springs with higher lobe lifts to be around 350 open and that can spell a quick failure.

Life would be easy if the lobe and lifter produced chips large enough to not go through the pump screen, but the particles form a type of slurry that passes right through the screen and pump. A good filter catches most of the crud and bearings don't usually look that bad. I've found the main hiding place for the garbage is in the ring lands and the wrist pin area of piston and rod. Proper cleanup can be really tedious.

My favorite lifter is the Crower Cam Saver hydraulic flat tappet lifter where they have added a slot down the side to increase lubrication. Lifters are made by Johnson for Crower.

I’ve been considering the cam saver lifters over the Hylift Johnson’s but there’s no mention anywhere that the Crower lifters are made in the USA so I’m hesitant to purchase them.

I wonder how many HFT failures were using stock grind cams, or modern replicas of stock grind cams, as opposed to modern profile cams.

If you filter out high performance cams and high spring pressures I wonder what the failure rate would be.

I'm curious .... did high performance cams of 40 years ago use similar profiles to modern HFT cams, or are modern cams more abusive to the valve train?

There were failures long ago .... in 1983 i bought a 1970 espirit bird 350 4speed it ran ok but letting out the clutch i could feel a uneveness in the power did all the tune up stuff then got to watching rocker arms while running .... turned out the original 254 cam had 3 still operational but shaved lobes and concave lifters and the 254 cam has even less lift than std 4bbl cams


HP cams have had a sort of stepped evolution XE. was a step then a group before that and then 60s to early 80s time frame roughly each new generation has pushed lobe intensity higher in search of more overall torque and this stresses out the fragile lobe and lifter dance

What does a roller failure look like? It takes the block with it usually. Ask 64speed.

Butler would see a slightly better profit matgin selling the roller upgrade by a country mile. 1.5:1 on a roller or 1.65:1 on a FT there's more than one way to grease a pig.

Hylift Johnson no longer makes Crower’s cams saver lifters. They have not for several years now. I think Crower’s lifters are still made in the USA though. I think they are sourced from the same company that makes Compscams flat tappets lifters. One of Comp rep’s said it is in Michigan yet.

If you want to use a HR for a fraction of the cost I have very nice used HR set up with HLJ lifters that is close to size as the cam you were running (275DEH).

Sorry Paul I did not notice your post when I pecked out my reply.

We had a cam/lifter failure on the dyno about 2 years ago. Engine had about 1 hour of running time on it. Ford small block. A 260 CU In stock engine restoration for a Falcon Sprint. So low valve spring pressure, very careful assembly, loaded up with break-in lube on cam and break-in oil. Melling cam and lifters, stock grind. One lobe went away fast. Short answer to "where does the metal go?". Answer, everywhere. It was incredible where that iron paste and tiny granules end up. Specifically, quite a bit in the piston ring lands and around the rings. Also packed up behind the dead end oil gallery plugs, in the oil pump, in the links of the timing chain, in the fuel pump cavity, rocker arm pivots, inside push rods, just everywhere. On this engine, we cleaned absolutely everything with solvent and spray wash cabinet. Surprisingly, we were able to use the rings and bearings over. But remember we are talking about 1 hour run time. The owner decided to go the hydraulic roller route he was so spooked. That was against my recommendation, but it made him feel more secure. I really think these occasional cam failures are just pure bad luck in many cases.

Hard to say if one is more prone than the other, I just haven't seen the failures with flat tappets. I run as much as 130 lbs. seat pressure on some flat tappets without issue, using modern grinds from Comp, while other cars here have stock camshafts or even 50 year old grinds from Isky that still work fine. There are some benefits however to the more modern lobes. But like I said, I go through extra lengths on mine with nitriding and pressure lube lifters etc... so a typical flat tappet for me runs about $1000. A hydraulic roller for me runs about $2000, sometimes more by the time I get the $1100+ lifters, etc... So the price difference is about double. Not horrible but not in the budget for many.

Like Mgarblik said, I really think these failures are just bad luck with a few other reasons mixed in, many of which aren't the cams fault.

Very possible they have always failed at the same rate they do now .... it's just that now, with the internet, each failure is amplified as thousands of people read about it. 30 years ago you said awww shucks, went to the store and bought new parts and no one heard about it.

And of course you never hear about the hundred thousand that broke in fine and have worked for years.

Exactly my thoughts dataway. Only difference between then and now is that now the information highway lets everyone know about it.
Sometimes I think everyone would be better off putting the computer down and just get back to building cars again. Spread info the old fashion way by getting these cars out and drive them, mingle with the car crowd :)

Before Hy-lift Johnson there was just Johnson. They had one of the best lifters on the market. Every lifter they sold had been hardness checked. Around 1990 they stopped this process. It makes sense to me they performed this QC test "for a reason". I'm doubting it was to keep an extra person employed.

Now after thirty years of excuses we know that most lifter failures are due to soft lifters.

FWIW

i wiped a 327/300 cam in a chevy 350, around 1995. engine had been built in the mid-80's. every now and again a flat tappet loses a lobe, no getting around it ...

Yup

There are too many recent failure stories with flat tappet cams that you just can't ignore. I've seen this on cars owned by mechanics I personally know. Whether it is the chit overseas metal so many of these cams are made out of, and/or assembly issues, there are more failures of flat tappet cams reported today than ever before! Last year, one of the family members of Butler Performance sat for an interview with Smoke Signals. He claimed in their engine building service, they experience almost a 50% failure rate on flat tappet camshafts. Now since Butler is a renowned engine building company and known well by Pontiac enthusiasts, if that doesn't convince you something is horribly wrong with the modern flat tappet camshafts, nothing well....