dip stick popping up
 

Interesting question.............i know i have a oil leak somewhere, oil pan/rear main seal..................really not all that bad but if i take the motor up to 5000-5800 it seems the leak is really bad...............doing a search about dip stick blowing upwards and throwing oil everywhere..................mine will move up about a 1.4 inch but no oil anywhere..................so do i have a crankshaft issue or just the normal rear main/oil pan leak.

This is gettin on my nerves fast

Rich

Checked your PCV valve recently? Just a random thought which came to mind thinking about pressure lifting the stick.

Edit: Another thought is whether you are actually over-filled on oil or have a blown head gasket. Both can (now that I think about it) cause pressure in the pan.

An engine develops maximum cylinder pressure when running at WOT. Some of that blowby will make it past the rings and into the crankcase. On a healthy engine with a working PCV, that crankcase vapor is drawn into the intake and burned. During WOT, there is very little vacuum, so a normal amount of crankcase pressure gets vented from the valve cover breathers.

On a very worn motor or one without proper venting, or very bad detonation, the blowby will be enough to push the dipstick out, cause oil leaks or otherwise find its way out of the crankcase. My current 400 is high mile and if I run it really hard, the dipstick comes out 1/2" and there is a mist of oil on the breathers.

How many miles, how is the PCV set up and any signs of detonation near WOT?

Are you running the stock air cleaner assembly with the steel tube coming up out of the valve cover on one side and plumbed into the filter case?

Steve, its a 66 tripower, i have 1 breather in each valve cover.

As of the pcv valve, im on about my 6-7 one.......the cv697c, the one in the valley pan now is from Butlers. They all seem good but i try different ones just to see if any difference..............usually no difference.

The rings are gapless rings, the builder put them in last year, who knows if something isnt right with them one way or the other.

From my other post Rear main seal on 6-8-2024, would say the leak is double what your seeing on those pics, this was after hitting 5 or so grand 4-5 times.

Not sure how i want to proceed from here, had the car 25 yrs, love it, but this getting the motor rebuilt 3 times and still the same issue from the 1st build, is getting old.

Thinking of selling the car, taking a major hit money wise, but fixing it again is also taking a high money hit. Beautiful car, runs perfect except for these oil leaks...........got to think this over.

Rich

pcv shouldn't be doing anything at WOT. honestly oil leaks are part of the deal with old cars, just accept it. don't nitpick your way out of the hobby!! you take a close look at ANY old car at a show and you will find flaws.

There are only 2 things that can make the dipstick pop up. One is physical contact with the stick for some reason. You should see witness marks on the bottom of the stick somewhere or a bent stick. Second is excessive crankcase pressure. You stated each valve cover has a breather in it. One way to check the PCV system easily without tools is to do the "paper test". With the engine running fully warmed up, remove one breather and tape it shut with a piece of duct tape. Then get a piece of typing paper or notebook paper and cut a 3X3" square. Remove the other breather. With the engine at 1000 RPM's approx place the paper square over the hole on the removed breather. The paper should be sucked to the valve cover hole and remain there. It should not just flutter around and fall off and it certainly should not be pushed away from the valve cover. In other words, there should be a slight vacuum in the crankcase. If it fails this test, either the PCV system is not working for some reason or you have excessive blowby in the engine. Crankcase pressure just takes a marginal sealing engine like a Pontiac and makes it extra difficult to seal. A few little drips here and there just has to be considered normal on an old engine design. Obviously, an engine leaving a puddle on the ground needs to be dealt with.

Hey Mike, never tried that test, will test tomorrow, looks like its gonna rain soon cant let my baby get wet...........another thing i forgot to mention i have those rubber plugs with holes drilled into them in my valve covers to keep the oil inside the covers...............could this be throwing anything off .vacuum wise.

Im hoping for the best here, but have a feeling im gonna flunk the paper test............gonna see if i can get a nos pcv valve, no idea if any of these are floating around. The pcv i have now is from butlers, one would think there selling a decent one.

Mike, i get your statement about a few drips here and there, i can see that but mine seems to drip a few drops even days later while not running.............lol, what do you consider a puddle size would be for reference.

Glad you guys are hanging in there with me on this one, very frustrating to say the least,

Rich

Couple pics of what i got going here, have a hard explaining things on the puter..............maybe some of you have noticed this..........lol

Anyways pcv hose hooked up to the F-pipe behind the center carb, no other place to put it.

These are the cheapy breathers i have...................let me know if i can get better ones.

The rubber plug is the one in the v/c thought that would keep the oil inside the valve covers better, will pull out and see if that makes any difference.

Just thinking out loud here, the last two rebuilds i believe were with the gapless rings, is this my problem or just poor work done by the builder.

Im hoping some motor pops up for sale similar to what i have now, but so far seems all the motors for sale are race type.

Whats really weird about this whole deal, the dipstick is only a little down from full....................i use 6 qts

Rich

I want to make sure I understand those rubber plugs. If they are made like a sleeve with a closed bottom, that's a problem. The bottom of the rubber plug/sleeve needs to be completely open to the breather. I have seen some of those with just a razor slit in the bottom. No good. It needs to be completely open to the breather, at least on one side of the engine. As far as how much of a leak is "normal"? Of course dry is best!! But not easy to achieve. To me after taking the car out and ripping it through the gears say 4-5 times and driving it around 20-30 miles. if I park it on a piece of clean cardboard, I would not expect to see more than a quarter size stain on the cardboard. If I had a stain the size of a 1/2 dollar, I would be a little unhappy. Not very scientific, but that's my personal threshold. One of the reasons I bought a smoke machine.

Mike, a few pics of what i have with that rubber plug

quarter size stain on the carboard..............damn i have a dollars worth of those after some high 5 thou runs..............not to mention, days after its still the same.

Really nothing bigger than a half dollar stain wise, but i have quite a few of those.

Are you talking about one drop after a drive..............if so im in big trouble, i get drips 2-3 days after a hard run.

Glad your hanging in there with me on this...............

Pics of the rubber grommet im talking about.

Worse case Sincero.............if i drive the car under 3500 rpm, the leaks are not all that bad..............if over 5000..............they are really bad.

I will buy a smoke machine................would be great if you could give me a # on what model you bought............

Problem with the smoke machine, say its the rear main or oil pan seal.............doesnt really matter if i have too much crankcase pressure does it.

Rich

Cut the bottom of those plugs wide open or ditch em for open versions.

PS, prolly a big part of your rear main problem.

If I am seeing the pics correctly, it looks like those are rubber plugs. Even if they have tiny holes in the bottom they can't let that big crankcase breath properly. I would cut the bottom off one of them, clean the engine bottom up and go for a drive. Problem may be solved. The PCV system can't work if outside air can't get into the crankcase and push the lighter crankcase gasses into the PCV hose and valve. Working properly, it's a loop. Outside air through the breather into the crankcase, pushing blowby gasses up into valley cover, through PCV valve, through hose, back to the intake to be burned.

Are your breathers pushed into the sealed rubber plugs?

Hey Rich

I think for sure the rubber plug should be cut so crankcase blowby gas can escape at higher rpm. Hopefully, that is what is causing the issue.
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I think you will find there are some guys on this forum have the same symptoms. Engine runs good and has no apparent issues and good power at lower (say under 3500-4000 RPM). But, when driven aggressively (racing, drag racing) and running at higher rpms (say 4500-5500) there is excessive crankcase blowby. Oil dip stick can get pushed out. Weeping / leaking of engine gaskets/seals - like rear main seal, oil pan gasket, front timing cover crank seal, valve cover gaskets etc.
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All engines have some blowby. PCV system handles normal engine crankcase blowby at low rpm mostly with PCV valve connected to engine vacuum. At high rpm , for my engine (78) engine crankcase blowby is vented up passenger tube through small filter into the air cleaner. In some cases proper engine venting (PCV system) can help (cure?) some blowby issues. I think it also depends on how severe the blowby is. Drag racers can obviously see this issue a lot. As they continually run the engine at high rpm. It appears some racers may use a vacuum pump (elec? or mechanical) to help alleviate excessive crankcase pressure.
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I had an engine (400 stroker 4.25" , stump puller cam, SD ported heads 260cfm?, headers, cast iron intake and qjet) that had moderate to severe blowby at high rpm. I first noticed when doing some drag racing/ hard driving. My oil dipstick tube was getting pushed out. I also had some oil in engine air breather. I have a tube running from passenger valve cover to engine air breather. My small air breather filter (in the air cleaner housing) was getting pretty wet with oil. I also started seeing some drips out of the rear main seal area. I started to see my oil pan gasket weep a little bit of oil and some drips from front timing cover crank seal and valve cover
gaskets weeping.
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I tried some band aids
- header evac, did not work for me
- higher flow PCV, no real affect
- got another passenger valve cover and added a second vent and used a filter and catch can, did not really help

Through all this , I drove the car quite a few miles. My compression was always decent , like 170-180. I did a leak down test and was seeing 10-15% which is kinda marginal for fairly new engine (less than 5000 miles). My plugs looked ok. Engine had ok idle vacuum. I found the oil would get kinda sticky and turn darker quicker and maybe smelled a little bit like fuel. I seemed to go through oil quicker - though I never noticed much (any?) blue smoke coming out the tail pipe. I drove quite a few years and lived with the issue. Maybe did not beat on the engine as hard :). I always parked on top of big piece of plywood so as oil dripping would not stain driveway. Maybe after having the engine like this for 3-4 years, I added an additional vent to drivers side valve cover. The normal setup on my drivers valve cover was the oil cap. I added a temp vent and hose and just vented...I think I just ran about 3-4 feet of 3/4" ID hose (with filter material) and vented to atmosphere. This seemed to help more than my other band aids - less leaking/weeping from seals and seemed like less blowby. Even through all this - engine had good power and no issues.

I am not sure on what caused my excessive high rpm blowby. Maybe for my engine, the ring seal at higher rpm was not good. Was the problem, the rings, the gapping ? the cylinder wall finish ? Bores being a bit out of spec? I have also read that you can have high rpm "ring flutter" - where rings can lose some of their sealing ability at higher rpms. Note, my stroker kit came with Mahle pistons. These Mahle pistons had oil ring cut into the piston pin area. I am not sure if the affected my issue.

Hope that helps you a bit :)

LOL...........pippintook, when your typing gotta say your typing. thanks for that info.

Ok, did the Mike test with the one v/c holed taped shut, put the 3X3 paper on the other hole...................that was a no go, paper just fell off...............so im guessing maybe a pcv issue.

So as of now i ditched those rubber grommets and just using the regular ones with my cheapy breathers.

Only took the car up to 53-55 rpm for one shot................this pic is what i got about 5 minutes after that.

The dip stick did raise about a 1/4 inch but no oil anywhere around it.........as usual it still reads near full................wonder whats up with that.

Next pic with the two drops was about 1/2 hour later................will post a pic in the morning after sitting all night.

These drips i can live with....................the ones the other day after really beating on the car where far worse.

Guess it comes down to two things.................still too much crankcase pressure even with new rings, or bad pcv valve................will look into another pcv valve, sceen some on ebay...............old ass box but the valve looked like new which i have about 6-7 of them.

Hopefully this will help some..................question i had, are these breathers good enough, or what ones would be better to help some.

On the pics the one with a few spots are about 5 minutes after i got home.................the one with the 2 spots are a 1/2 hr later...............dont know why the one on the top was there................the reason i think your seeing more spots are i drilled some holes in the inspection plate, didnt want all that stuff near the clutch.

any more input from you guys would be great.

Rich

Just for reference, i know the spots are small, not a big deal, but after yesterday on beating on the motor quite a few times, they were about 10 times that size, thats my concern, not the few small spots your seeing here..................not only were they pretty big, but after cleaning my pad 3-4 times they were still dripping 2 days later.

Rich

Hmmm. My valve covers have those big rubber plugs too. I know passengers side is solid at the bottom, just there for decoration. The drivers side has the breather in it like Rich’s. I never checked to see if it was open at the bottom.
If I took a picture of what my ‘69 400 pukes out onto the garage floor, you’d laugh. It actually runs out from under the car towards the floor drain if it sits long enough. One of the reasons I’m pulling my engine soon. I’ve never noticed my dipstick raising though.

Seems like you’re on the right track with lack of crankcase ventilation. If you’re going to keep buying and trying PCV valves, consider the ME Wagner. It’s not cheap, but it will for sure do the job.

https://mewagner.com/?p=2173

When I had blowby , I think I took an old pcv valve and just cut out the middle (so valve was mostly open), this did not make much of a difference in the high rpm blowby. So, I generally just ran a stock type PCV valve. I could drive the car normal - like just cruising around and the odd moderate acceleration and afterwards oil dipstick would not move and very little dripping oil from the engine. But, as soon as I beat on the engine and drove it pretty hard I almost always had oil dipstick pop a bit and afterwards I would usually see some pretty moderate to severe oil drips on the floor. I found that not much , if any oil, actually seemed to come out the dipstick. I think I just eventually put a bolt in there. There are lots of styles of valve cover grommets. Some are open, some have a one slit or a cross slit. I had a bunch of grommets and I tried different things, like half open or drilling different holes in the bottom - nothing really seemed to have an impact on my engine's high rpm blowby. One thing I also did was stick some velcro on back of oil pan (cleaned first) and then I would stick/jam some small sponges in there - that would help with the dripping oil from back of pan / rear main seal. Periodically, I would change the sponges.

I have to ask, did you use the same machinist each time you rebuilt the engine? Gapless rings are a little finicky I know I have used them in the past. They need a special finish to work correctly. For a street car there is no advantage to use them. They actually work best with a vacuum pump. I agree the rubber plugs for the breathers should be completely open. Was a torque plate used when your engine was honed? By the way a header evac system only works correctly with open headers. If you decide to re-ring the engine I would get a different machinist and ditch the gapless rings. Have you tried backing the timing off 2 or 3 degrees and see if it makes a difference?

Just to say, gapless rings are junk IMO. I've seen many have issues with them. Blowby being one of them. They can 'stick' together and not compress right and wear fast. I think they are more of a 'gimmick' than functional. Classic style rings don't have much blowby if installed correctly, so the thought that gapless have less blowby is a questionable 'benefit'.

I never had luck with those VC grommets either, and for me it seemed it was always an issue with the PCV valves or source of vacuum, and not the breather. So that grommet has little or no, effect, or even makes it worse.

On the dip stick, one thing that can also push the stick out is if the stick is making contact with the pan or is loaded by the tube that passes thru the tray. The tube that passes thru the tray needs to be right too, some with aftermarket caps may have bent the lower tube to make it fit. If you have AC with the extension tube it can be even more contorted.

You have to initially insert the stick in a way that is of least resistance too, so the flat sides are as flat as can be as it makes turns thru the tube(s). Sometimes the finger loop on the end may not face a particular way, and some try to make it face a way they want, and not 'relaxed' thru the tube(s).

Just a little brain-dump on my thoughts, some may find it useful.

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Thanks Tim & HWYSTR455...........my first two rebuilds were different machinists, will have to check paper work on last rebuild, not sure if gapless were used, I should have clarified the motor wasnt redone last year, he just took it apart and put in new rings, i know those were gapless.

The first two rebuilds were bored and honed with torque plates..........might try backing the timing off a little...........cant hurt.

Seeing i only have 2 thousand miles since this re-ring job, im gonna wait untill things get alot worse before taking that apart again.............to tell the truth, im not sure i want to try to fix this 455 again..............just find it hard to believe every time i get work done to the motor, its always the same issue.

Im gonna try to find my paperwork on stuff and see what i got going here.

Rich

Leak down test
 

have seen this happen a few times in my life. Two main issues that were found were
1. The rubber plugs in the valve cover breathers were not cut open.

2. one piston ring was missing or broken.

Number 2 is most likely as it is blowing the dip stick up.
Please do a leak down check on all cylinders. If all are good then the problem is up top.

It's too bad your engine was re-ringed with the gapless rings. If it was honed and a plasma moly top ring and a cast 2nd ring was installed I doubt you would be having this problem. The rear main seal may be somewhat related but most likely was not installed correctly also.

Lots of good ideas floating around in this thread now. To boil it down to a plan of action, this would be my approach. You state the engine runs good and the oil leaks are the only problem you want to try to correct or make very minimal. 1. We seem pretty certain the plugs/grommets in the valve covers were not letting the engine breath. So correct that first. 2. Since the engine was not breathing, this may have put excessive vacuum on the PCV hose. Especially if fuel hose is being used, the hose may be sucking closed when the engine is running or at high vacuum. Check that hose. Replace it if there is any possibility of it sucking closed. I like to use power steering return hose, or power brake booster hose. Those hoses are stiffer and less likely to suck closed. Once all that is buttoned up, I would get everything as clean as possible and take the car out and run it good and hard. Bring it back and evaluate the oil leaks. If still leaking, a smoke machine would be my next move to really pinpoint the source of the leak. I have had a tiny, tiny leak at the rear of a valve cover that I would have sworn was a rear main or oil pan leak. The smoke machine can be a humbling experience.

Yeah, if the vacuum source hose is long, and you used fuel line or the likes, It very well could be sucking shut, especially if it's at higher RPM/vacuum. Good thought.

You could even use hard line, and just do connections in short sections of whatever hose. It's cleaner, and less space, not effected by heat.

I use emissions line for smaller vacuum feeds, like vacuum advance, works great.

.

Thanks again guys..............ok, went thru my paperwork..............on the 2nd rebuild they used Total Seal CR069065 rings..............on the re-ring last year they used Hastings 2M552965 rings...........not sure what the deal is on these when i looked up on summit says not gapless.................but i do remember the guy saying he uses gapless rights, doesnt matter thats what in the car right now.

Will try a leakdown again, i have a cheapy set, half the time i cant even get it in the plug hole right.............might have to take it in to a pro shop for that.

Got rid of the rubber grommets i had in there...............curious any better filters i can get besides the cheapys i have now.

Took the car out awhile ago, slapped that puppy up to 5500 or so thru 2 gears, so far about 10 minutes after i got home, 2 small drops, will check in the morning again.......i should have cleaned out the inspection cover before doing this................yeah, too lazy to crawl under the car.

Per Mike, im gonna get a smoke machine....................just a quick question, are you able to tell if the smoke comes out by the oil pan bend in the back compared to a rear main seal leak..............looks like there pretty close.

Will look into that wagner pcv valve............little spendy but im wasting way more money trying every pcv in exsistence.................the bulters pcv valve wasnt excately cheap either...........lol

Any other ways to test if your pcv system isnt up to par.............im pretty sure my hose isnt the issue, i can run a q-tip in the hose, maybe a hair of oil in it, but thats it.

I do appreciate all the help i get from you guys.............i will get this oil leaking fixed one way or the other.

Rich

With everything working right, the breathers are really air intakes into the engine and the PCV system is the output. So cheap breathers can leak a little oil out on the valve covers or a mist under full throttle when the PCV can't handle 100% of the blowby. Better breathers have more mesh in them to strain oil vapor. If the breathers are not leaking oil, I wouldn't worry about them. Sounds like the problem may go away with some more driving.

Moroso breathers are pretty good, and don't get much mist. They are kind of larger, have a divider in them, as well as some 'mesh' (which looks like a cut up 3M pad stuff).

The Billet Specialties ones I run on the one car are great, little to no mist out of those, but do have a repop valley pan (oe type baffle).

Those sheet metal valley pans are almost impossible to prevent them from sucking oil if you run the PCV in them, not even sure why they put the boss on those, they suck, and yes, pun intended!


.

Hope you can figure this out along with the rms or pan gasket leak.

Regarding the valve cover grommets, I use the same ones you have on my 78 400 engine, the slot in them is not razor thin, its the full width of the grommet & is almost 1/8" wide, maybe a little less, but you can just about breathe freely through them so they probably aren't causing the leak issue or excessive crankcase pressure. By all means try open grommets to see if they help, but Ive never had an issue with them causing a rear main or other oil leaks. https://www.moroso.com/breather-grom...-package68775/

They do make another type of baffled grommet that has a much bigger opening with a piece of foam in it to stop oil mist, if you also have mist out the breathers these might help a little & provide better breathing than the ones with a slot. On this same page you can also see the k&n type breathers that are fully open with the pleated material. I also use the cheaper chrome breathers that work fine, if they get loaded with oil mist I just rotate them 180°... never had an oil drops from them though. https://www.ebay.com/itm/404113941017

Thanks for that info Scott..............will email you this week.

Im gonna pick up some p/s return hose today, although thats what i think i have on there now............my hose is pretty stiff, wow, that dont sound right.

Noticed today when i pulled off the bulter pcv valve the tip had some oil on it, not alot.........but the hose was dry.

Im trying to keep a good attitude about this, but im losing faith slowly......

Rich

Thats good your hose is still stiff.... lol! In my experience reinforced fuel hose is pretty strong & wont collapse under the weak vac of pcv... ive even used it for many years on auto trans for the solenoid line when I was younger & didnt know or care about using hard line for that location, its a good idea to confirm the hose isnt collapsing but for such a short run under low vac, thats probably not an issue.

An update for anyone watching.............2 days ago Pic # 6..........was at 5 grand or more for quite a few times.............dipstick did move up about a 1/4 inch.

Pic # 3-4 were yesterdays test..........up to 4 grand or so, d/s didnt move.

Last pics were from today, watch the oil and sucked beer, two hours later..............looking good....lol

Only changes i made since the first oil drips that were pretty bad was...............a new pcv hose which looked like what i had, and a new pcv valve AC delco CV881C for a chevy.

Hopefully this pics come in some kind of order.

Rich

Pics of my d/s........................this has been going on for awhile so far, about 450 miles, cant believe the d/s is near full................i only use 6 qts, the one side of the d/s looks like 2 qts overfull, but i use the other side i scribed a mark on............just down a little, not that im leaking a ton of oil, just hard to belive its not moving much on the d/s.

Im gonna keep a good eye on this for awhile...............but as i said before, i have lost all faith in this motor, its been one thing after another on this oil issue.............well at least the d/s looks honey colored after the re-ring, usually before that oil was black in 50-60 miles, easier to read on the d/s.

Seems if i keep the revs under 3000-4000 i only drip some................kind of a waste of a 455 with kre heads and cant run more without issues.

Wanted to say thanks to all the help i got from you guys..................will pm some to thank personally.

PS all info is correct even with the beer drinking...............its what we do up here in wisconsin..........lol

Last pic is the breather im using.............i know it says Tawain , but im sure its the finest one from Tawain.

The reason those two pics are different................the one that says 45 minutes is about where the inspection plate is..................the one further back is on the trans so its flying back some.

Rich

You’re complaining about that?! lol
Next time I’m out there I’m gonna have to post some pics of my floor!
I’m glad it’s better, I still haven’t checked mine, wife’s uncle is on hospice, and she’s over there 24 hours a day now, so not much if any garage time lately. I hope to get out there a for a minutes this weekend.

Hey Drake, sorry to hear about your situation.............im not really complaining, just trying to figure out this oil leak deal................had to look up where your at, 140 miles from me...............i might have to drive down and look at your pig pen oil leaked garage.............lo0l

Rich

Ok, last pic before i drive you guys to drinking..............this was from last nite to most of the day today.

When i started this thread i knew i had a leak, my issue was if i didnt run the car for 4-5 days, why is it still leaking, i understand when driving you have some pressure going on, then when you shut it off, its gonna drip some...............but 4-5 days later seems odd.

Now these drops look small, this just changed in the last couple days since i made some changes you guys recommended..................no big deal if it stays like this. BUT if you noticed in the one pic i sent with the 4 pretty big drops, i had a # 4 written down on my plate so i could count the times i cleaned it, so i cleaned those big drops 4 times all about the same in a few hrs.............then few days with small drops.

Gonna see if i can get a smoke machine to hopefully pinpoint the leak.

Just wanted to say thanks again for the help.

Rich

Checked the rubber my breather is in today, it’s open at the bottom. I was kind of hoping it wasn’t.

Now there’s some oil leaks!

LOL, not thats funny, even if i spill a beer i get less mess than that, well im pretty fast at picking up a spilled beer.

Had the car out for a 45-50 mile drive today, ran great, checking the drips every so often..........got about 7 small ones now after 35-40 minutes, will check in the morning.

Gonna see if i can pick up a smoke machine, hopefully that will tell me where the leak is................the problem is fixing it.........lol

Have a happy fathers day for you fathers.

Rich

Glad to hear it’s doing better.
I have a few issues that need addressing besides the oil leaks, so if I pull my engine I’ll be killing 3 or 4 birds with one stone. Sad thing is it’s running better than it has since I owned it, as I’ve knocked out some projects on it this past year.
Happy Father’s Day to you too!

The problem with excessive crankcase pressure is it will find the weakest spot to escape. Seal one spot it will find another..I fought this issue with my last short block. Sometimes guys have been creative with venting..vents off the fuel pump mount if not being used or use the dipstick as a vent.