Oil Analysis
 

Finally got my oil analysis back. Lead was high. They said this level could be normal for a freshly built motor but could also mean abnormal bearing wear.
They also said "That usually means there's lead from fuel blow by... and is probably harmless". I didn't think we had lead in fuel these days? Maybe there is still some? I'll need to send in another sample at my next oil change. Anyway here's the report:

https://i.imgur.com/NHVNuCYh.jpg

What brand and weight oil was tested . I hope to have an analysis to share next week on some Penn Grade .

Driven GP-1 15w40

Here’s the problem with oil analysis; it requires multiple tests to establish a trend. They are correct; slightly elevated lead results COULD be nothing more normal break-in IF lead was still used in engine bearings. Modern bearing are faced with babbitt which is predominantly tin and antimony. If I were you I would pull another test when the engine has at least one thousand more miles on it along with an oil filter inspection.

Yeah, I know it's a red flag and I'll need to follow up. I can do whatever interval check is needed. I inspected the filter at 500 miles and I didn't see anything that looked bad (to me). I'll have to post pics next time.

So if the bearings are not faced with lead then that that would mean it's coming from deeper layers of the bearing (assuming that's still got lead) or somewhere else?

They mentioned fuel as a source. I buy my gas in bulk and it's 92 octane non-ethanol gas. I add Sta-bil and Lucas fuel treatment. I guess those could contain some lead.

They also mentioned blow by. My cold cranking compression was 175 psi +/- 2 psi. So I doubt I have excessive blow by.

On a bearing lead would have been the outer protective layer, after that layer you'll see high concentrations of copper which you dont have in your analysis.

Thing is I don't think they use lead anymore as the outer layer of a bearing that I'm aware of and tin is low too which I think is used as a replacement for the lead so I tend to think that's coming from somewhere else.

Being a new engine id do just as Hoosier recommended and go another 1000 miles and check again and compare.

Is the oil slightly out of spec for a 40wt or am I reading it wrong ? Looks like a 30wt on the high side . Surely it didn’t shear down in just 2500 miles .

A lot of oils show close to 10w loss in shear by the end of the oil change. That test came back as almost a thick 10w30. The wider the weights are between the cold and hot index is, the more it tends to shear. All oils I can think of show shear with use, some worse than others. I would call GP1 kind of average on that, the GP1 20w50 does better on shear than 15w40. I run GP1 in my cars. The majority of people never realize oils shear because they never have their used oil tested. Doesn’t mean the oil is necessarily bad, for example Mobile 1 5w40 usually drops to a 0w30 before 2000K miles, but it tests good monitoring wear.

The sample looks like it came back very well. I agree with Larry, the lead was not coming from the bearings. I doubt it came from anything wear related at all. That was likely leaching from the additives your adding to the fuel. I would say you have a good starting place to monitor your next UOA. I think I would go a full interval on the next oil change.

That's what I was thinking. That if the lead was coming from a bad bearing there would be other abnormalities as well.

I don't really know anything about shear but can that depend on how the car it driven? For example if someone just puts around and the motor never sees any WOT vs someone who gives the motor WOT at least a couple times every time they drive? And if that's the case should I consider going to a 20w50?

Unless the engine has trouble maintaining oil pressure toward the end of the oil change, or the UOA was indicating that a thicker oil would help on wear, there would be no reason to change to the thicker oil. Heat is the top cause for extra shear, harder driving equals more heat. More heat cycles from longer oil change intervals would be another area that cause extra shear. Some oils shear more than others. It isn’t a problem until the UAO comes back and says it was showing extra wear from your UOA trends.

Makes sense. Thanks!

I had Blackstone do a UOA on a fresh engine with about 2K miles on it and it had a higher level of lead also, around 50 IIRC. Copper and tin were low and everything else looked good so they pretty much told me the same thing as thy told OP.
Was running Valvoline VR-1 conventional with no additives and always ran unleaded gas.

I guess they have to say something about it. :)

I would not be at all worried about it. Lead will leach easily. It can get up to a couple hundred ppm just by a small scratch in a bearing. It takes almost nothing to raise it to 100ppm from fuel, a lead fuel can make the number a couple thousand ppm, and can read high for a long time after it isn’t even used anymore. The tin and copper are the problem metals, lead will usually go up when they go up.

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If you have lead in the oil analysis, you might want to verify that you have tri-metal bearings. If you have bi-metal, it's unlikely that there's any lead in them.

I find this post interesting, because I have the same issue I planned to ask about on here. My newly rebuilt 400 had oil change at 500 miles and filter looked good. Now, changed oil at 2500 miles and sent a sample in for analysis and they also said lead was critically high. I run premium unleaded because it's the only non-ethanol I can get. I run no additives with Driven GP-1 10w-30.

There is nothing you can do except monitor it, probably should move the next oil change up sooner and check it again. The other metals number don’t appear to match the lead levels, I would not be that concerned about the higher PB in this one either, I would keep driving it. The high lead (PB) numbers are probably from a scratch in a bearing, I think the higher Silicon number may be from a bearing scratch too. I recall King bearings use some silicon. Probably should look and make sure it doesn’t have any dirt leaks also though, like the test suggested.

It doesn’t sound like the high PB level came from fuel, actually none of the PB from any of these oil samples likely came from the fuel, I look it up and I don’t think Sta-bil or Lucus fuel treatment have PB in them, and normal fuel shouldn’t have any. I doubt these engines run oil coolers either, likely not leaching PB from solder somewhere.

Lead was taken out of babbitt years ago. We used to have to re-babbitt Model T and Model A connecting rods; the original composition was lead faced. The replacement babbitt was tin and antimony.

It would be interesting to send in a sample of the oil you use right out of bottle!
Maybe something is going screwy at the testing center?

In general, silicon is from poor air filtering--dust/dirt/sand. I'm not saying there can't be exceptions, but that's the first place I'd be investigating.

ESPECIALLY if you've got an oiled-gauze air filter that still looks nice and clean, or a modified air filter housing that doesn't seal to the air filter element properly.

I agree in those things. If there is an issue with air filtering it could be tied right to the lead also if the engine inhaled something and some particles made it to the bearings. The trimetal bearings only have about a .001” thickness to get the the layer that contains lead, then the lead will leach out and raise the ppm in the UAO. Most main bearings used in Pontiacs are trimetal.

Silicon is used in bimetal King SI and HP bearings, and all the EngineTech bearings. I have engines with King HP rod bearings and trimetal mains, so it is possible to have higher levels of lead and Silocon from bearing debre with some combinations of bearings.

For me, I have the stock dual snorkel intake and new filter. It seals tight, so I think it's filtering as it should.

Your molybendum and Boron are super high as well. I would use a boutique oil and have it tested again at the oil change interval.

I put Driven GP1 10W30 in just like my last oil before oil change. I'll have it tested after about 2000 miles and see how it comes back (that could be two years though!).

Don't think I'd leave it in 2 years. I'd be interested in seeing that oil sample, lol. How old was the oil from the last analysis? Were they made aware or just mileage?

Very few oils have an additive package that promotes long time storage like that, which is what that would be considered given you only drive 1000 miles a year.

I'm not sure if Driven is that way or not or if they make one specific, but Amsoil does make an oil specifically for that purpose with an additive package that fights against moisture and corrosion that typically happens with cars that sit for periods of time. Especially if you live in a moist climate.

Driven GP1 uses an additive for long term storage. Supposedly similar to what the military uses.

I wonder if long term storage could raise the lead level if a source of lead is exposed?

The levels from the sample of moly and boron are typical of GP1, those are in a normal range for that oil.

That's great info to know, thanks very much.

Good to know there are others that offer that kind of additive package.

I don't know what sitting a long time does to the oil, I've never sent a sample in that's just been sitting for months but I'd be interested in seeing one. With oils formulated just for that purpose I can see where it might be concerning.

The sample I sent in sat over the winter, 5-6 months. I'll be sending in another sample in about 2-3 months that will be "fresh" after about 2000 miles.

My oil was last changed in 2021, or three years ago. But, I was only driving about 700 miles/yr.

Same here... sometimes 1 or 2 of my cars dont get driven much for whatever reason, working on them or on something else, its hard to put lots of miles on multiple cars sometimes living in the midwest with a shorter driving season than those in year round warm climates.

If i have less than ~1000 miles on the car for the season I dont change the oil, its a complete waste, oil doesnt go bad sitting in the pan (or bottle) in that short of time, same for the filter. If the engine is healthy & not dumping raw fuel into the oil or other major issues like that, the additives neutralize any combustion by products and the anti wear additives dont go bad while sitting. My engines are clean lower mile rebuilds so no high mileage sludge or anything.

I also spoke to valvoline about long term use & was told the same thing, 1-2 years at low miles is not an issue at all, neither is new oil in the bottle for 5 years or more if stored properly. I have & use oils rated SN & SM & even some 15+ year old rotella-T SL grade.... stored in climate controlled area off the ground, shake them every year or so & again before using.

Valvoline FAQ- "DOES MOTOR OIL EXPIRE? IF NOT, HOW LONG DOES MOTOR OIL GENERALLY LAST?
Valvoline motor oils do not have documented expiration dates. When stored under optimal conditions, the product remains stable for an extended period of time. It can be used as long as the American Petroleum Institute (API) rating on the label continues to meet or exceed the requirements listed in your car’s owner's manual. If the rating is still current, we advise you shake the container before use to blend any additives that may have settled."

How long did it take to get your results back from the lab - Blackstone I presume ?

Much longer than I expected. After about a month I called them to make sure they got the sample. It was 2 months before I got the results.

The last two time I sent samples the results were sent to me within three weeks - the most recent was about a month ago

Wow , 2 months . I did an analysis in 2015 on my F150 , I don’t recall exactly but I know it didn’t take more than a week or two . I sent a sample of penngrade 10w40 off to BS 18 days ago , I was expecting any day results lol

Combustion byproducts in oil have a nasty tendency to turn acidic in the presence of moisture. I’ve seen it in aircraft recip engines and classic automotive engines as well. Changing the oil is cheap insurance to prevent acid damage of internal engine components.

That's why I mentioned the oils formulated to those specific situations of sitting for long periods. That meant in the engine and have been run to some extent. As you said they get vary acidic and cause corrosion etc...

The article quoted above is referring to oil sitting in its original container. Completely different scenario.

Just making sure people are aware of the distinction so there is no confusion

Yes im aware of combustion byproducts and acids etc... there are additives in all oils that neutralize them, with lower miles as mentioned, the additives do what they are supposed to do... theres no difference from sitting for a short time with lower miles than driving the car to reach the maximum miles before an oil change, if anything taxed oil at the end of its life has more acids in it and is exposed to more moisture from starting & driving. Clean low mile oil is perfectly safe to sit for a few months during storage or a full year. Valvoline confirmed this when I asked.

The valvoline article/FAQ was quoted in regards to new oil in the bottle, as I mentioned I have/use older but new oils all the time without issue, and there are lots of people out there with stashes of older oils older than 5-8-10 years.

Some people seem to think new oil goes bad sitting in the bottle for a few years so I quoted the info. Some also think clean oil with lower miles in the engine for ~1 year goes bad and needs to have a special additive package... but then again some think they need VR1 racing oil in their stock cam engine, none of that is true or based on any scientific proof. Valvoline as well as many mechanics I know have said low mile clean oil is perfectly fine to use after 1 year, and based on my experience of doing that for 25+ years theres is nothing to indicate otherwise.

Yes but that's not what I was referring to when I mentioned oils formulated for sitting. I was talking about oils already in an engine and the car just sitting for long periods. There are oils formulated just for that purpose that fight against the moisture and corrosion that happens in those situations.

I just wanted to make that more clear in my second post because it seemed my first post was being misunderstood.

I understood what you meant but there may have been some confusion on why I posted the FAQ... I mentioned the valvoline FAQ pertaining to new oil sitting in the container...

but right before that FAQ I also mentioned what valvoline tech told me regarding low mile clean oil sitting for a short time like 1 year or so... all oils have additives designed to fight against acids, moisture & corrosion, you dont need a specialty oil/additives for that situation based on everything Ive been told from reputable sources. The comment of 700 miles/year for 3 years would be a little high for me, I usually go by a 1000 miles or less rule.

1 year on low mile clean oil in a healthy engine is not an issue, of course most oil companies give an umbrella statement saying it needs to be changed in 1 year but no mention of miles or storage situations.. and they want people to buy more oil. There are plenty of UOA's of oils going longer than that on BITOG or at much higher miles than the 3000-5000 suggested intervals that show they have a lot more life in them. Even the OP's UOA showed the oil is still good, they just mentioned a couple areas that were higher than usual with no specific reason why.

That's why I was interested in uoa's that show actual results. Not sure I'd trust a rep that has skin in the game if ya know what I mean. But the uoa's dont lie.

Ive never sent in a boutique oil sample that has sat in an engine for a long time and for that to even be accurate it would have to be drained without warming up the engine anyway. I'd like to see those results.

I agree on reps when asking about their products, but my question was more about oil age in general, im sure if i called back the next day and spoke with a different rep the answer would be different.

I also go by what many life long mechanics & racers I know have said on oil topics like this or weights or zinc etc, as well as my personal experience which seems to be working very good over a few decades with classic pontiacs and daily drivers of different makes.

A UOA of low mile oil but at 1 year old would be very interesting. I understand not draining it but really too many variables with that depending on how/where it was stored & how often it was driven to full temp during that time. In my cars, the low mile oil that is 1 year or older does get started & used, full temp drives that burn off any moisture, in winter they sit for a few months without any short starts that introduce lots of moisture. So the engine could be started & fully warmed before the sample is taken since most cars are used during the 1 year or more age of the oil. Im sure 1 year will have different results than 2 or 3 years.

Whats the current price for a test at blackstone?

Not really. I have seen both cranks, cams and bearing pitted by acidic oil in engines that were not warmed up long enough to burn the acidic compounds or the moisture out of the oil. And yes, oil for aircraft piston engines, diesel engines and classic automotive engine allegedly have these “acid neutralizing compounds” in them, but in my 6,000 engines of experience I have seen few engines that were stored long term that DIDN’T have varying degrees of acid damage.

The lifelong mechanic and engine builder who taught me most of what I know about engines would tell you to change the damn oil! Of course, his engines only won two USAC National Sprint Car Championships; the other lifelong mechanic and engine builder who taught me much about building modern competition engines would tell you to change the damn oil. He only won an NHRA World Championship. What would they know?

Thats great you had those experiences, but again way too many variables to say that happens to everyone elses engines. You said in those situations the engines werent warmed up long enough to get rid of moisture... that doesnt apply to my examples & experiences or most others that know how to store an engine properly.

So just to clarify this, when I talk about oil changes at 1 year or longer I mean for engines that are stored properly or get driven regularly/occasionally to fully warm up the engine/oil and on a healthy engine... other situations with other types of engines like air craft or high mile dirty engines or short starts some do in the winter to "lubricate the seals" that introduces lots of moisture dont apply here.

FJ- I meant to say in my last post about a UOA for low mile but 1 year or more oil that "not starting" it before draining has too many variables, most engines are started & ran after sitting for X amount of time so any moisture etc is burned off... that would be the more accurate way to test oil that sits for awhile but is used, like the average classic car.

My question would be how harmful are those start ups for the engine with old oil sitting for long periods. I'd like to see an OA before and after to see just how corrosive it might be.

I don't know, that whole "leave the oil in" for years just because it doesn't have mileage on it doesn't sound like a super idea to me. Not something I'd do with my very expensive engines. OA's would tell the story.

It's interesting stuff, I'm just not willing to do it with my stuff but I'd entertain someone else that wants to subject there engines to that sort of testing :)

I guess I see it different... why/how does 1 year old oil with very low miles just all of a sudden "go bad"? & if it did go bad, when does that happen, was it good at 11 months but some arbitrary date of 12 months magically makes it bad?

Have never seen any tests or proof to support that and based on my experience thats not reality. Ive seen lots of UOA's that show oils of different brands over 1 year old, even at much higher miles than we are discussing here, are still perfectly healthy.

Corrosion would be the one big concern. As mentioned conventional oils have still shown corrosion problems from sitting which is likely why some boutique oils felt they needed a formulated oil just for that purpose.

As to your other question, when and how long, that's what the OA's are for, great for determining things like that as well as change intervals, filter effectiveness and whether the oil is doing what it's supposed to be doing, which is why I mentioned I'm interested in seeing the different results. It's really the only concrete way to answer those types of questions.

Most if not all the UOA's for oil at 1 year or longer Ive seen showed corrosion wasnt an issue on the engines and brands of oil that were tested. But with all the variables to this type of thing like oil brand, engine condition, driving & storage conditions, etc, there really is no way to get a definite answer, all we can go on is what works over long periods of time, and of course UOA results like this one...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-yt5a1cWd4

These arent exactly controlled scientific tests but gives a good idea of certain things like wear or pour rates, this guy does tests for all kinds of things related to oil and engines, but his test on 17 month old oil with high miles vs new oil show identical results on the wear test and very close on other tests. But the samples he sent are what supports what Im saying, every part of the results showed the oil was perfectly fine, even the TBN numbers were excellent. Based on UOA's, personal experience & tests like this one I have zero concerns using 1 year old clean low mile oil in my expensive engines or daily drivers.

Projectfarm also has a cool test with 2 or 3 new small engines, one with oil, one treated with STP & one treated with... Lucas :oogle: he drains the oil and lets them run until they blow up! The one treated with lucas lasted the longest, and not by a small amount, it ran for ~10 minutes more!