Ignition/Distributor choices
 

What's everyone doing for distributors and ignition systems? Seems like most of the good companies are now made overseas and have quality issues. I have an old mallory unilite 4258001 that is NOS in the box back when they were american made that I'm thinking about using but also like the simplicity of points. Also would like to run a multi spark box but seems like msd units now aren't what they used to be.

What are you building? If you understand points they are very reliable and can be cleaned/changed on the road.

I'm building a 400 stroker with 4.25 crank at about 10.2:1 CR. I'm very familiar with points but really only on aircraft. They are extremely reliable, but those guys are turning far lower than we spin our engines.

Find yourself a cast iron points unit. Have it curved correctly by a distributor guy. Run the medium 8000 RPM spring Nappa points.
Then find a nice USA made MSD 6AL, Crane HI6 or Mallory Hyfire and be done with it.
All that stuff is out there.
I have been running a 7AL bought in the 80s. Only 2 sets of points in that time and about 4 distributor caps and rotors.
Never had a ignition issue. Simply works, no misses either. 99.9% of Pontiac engines will never see 8000 RPM.
Thats about the only reason to go beyond points IMO unless you want to run a crank trigger.
I have a crank trigger on the self, not much reason to use it.

If it's a street car it's worthwhile to use a distributor with a vacuum advance. If it's driven a lot it's worthwhile to use as many factory components as possible for reliability. I'd consider a factory HEI or points distributor depending on the application. If your not into tuning it yourself I'd have it professionally set up. There is a member here that does stellar work. I believe his user name is Sun Tune.

It’s nice that it has vacuum advance, but I notice that it’s been discontinued so I would first check on parts availability before settling on running it.

Not a huge mallory unilite fan. Even back in the 80's when those were popular and made here in the US they posed problems for people. A lot of friends jumped on that bandwagon back then and quickly got back off.

Personally, on my daily drivers I run points. I trigger MSD boxes with the stock points distributor and it's pretty much hands down the most reliable setup you can put on a car. If the box dies, I just swap wires at the coil and drive away on points, worry about replacing the box when I get home. No issues with rpm either. I have 2 engines on points here that will spin to 7000 no problem with stock 23 ounce accel points.

Honestly though, after running MSD boxes for more than 35 years and still buying them today, I've only had one failure and that one simply didn't work right out of the box, and they swapped it out no problem. I've never had one leave me stranded somewhere. I don't waste time worrying about it.

Thanks for the kind words Paul, much appreciated.

Skippy , a couple of observations about this.
Any of the Unilites were good distributors. However, let’s discuss a couple of things you might be interested in.
They were not a true high energy type distributor. By that I mean they were more of an electronic version of a points eliminator. They used the points type voltage supply, not the battery voltage supply of a true high energy design. On the e other hand the points weren’t either so it’s a wash on the voltage supply there. One is mechanical and the other is electrical .

In my opinion they were loads better and more durable than a current Pertronix. That said, a few more things. They absolutely without question, did/do not like voltage spikes/transients. In other words they didn’t care much for untrained battery boosting procedures, and for sure welding on the car without disconnecting if the battery beforehand. This was a big one. And took out lots of unilite modules in the day. So much so they started selling an add on power filter to help out matters.

The little unilite for its time was in fact a very accurate distributor. They flat did a good job of accurately firing the spark at the right moment, and would do it for a long long time if the module didn’t get smoked.

They weren’t real good in the 1986-1988 time frame for arriving with the total mechanical curve being where the little tag in the box said it was set at at the factory. I would check that to be sure for peace of mind.

To recurve it, will require at the least their stepped plastic key to set the total mechanical advance.its not a 100% got to have, but it sure helps so you don’t have to do the adjust and check and repeat song and dance. Their springs are also somewhat special also. A Mallory curve kit would make life 20x easier here for sure.

The vacuum advance units used to be adjustable for a small workable range. Or at least the ones I had messed with years and years ago were.

I would have no issue running one today. However, when stuff starts falling off of it, one might be advised to have some spare parts on hand. I’m sure a replacement vac adv canister would keep you busy for a day or two trying to locate. Not that they are prone to fail, but you cannot call the speed shop or jegs and summit that I’m aware of.

Ultimately as was said earlier, for my money a good old fashioned points distributor tuned up and a cd box is rather damn hard to improve upon.

With the same curve in either, it’s not gonna be a noticeable advantage either way, street or strip, until stuff starts falling off. And then at that point, replacement service items is when or may be when the fight starts…

Thanks for the kind words Paul, much appreciated.

Skippy , a couple of observations about this.
Any of the Unilites were good distributors. However, let’s discuss a couple of things you might be interested in.
They were not a true high energy type distributor. By that I mean they were more of an electronic version of a points eliminator. They used the points type voltage supply, not the battery voltage supply of a true high energy design. On the e other hand the points weren’t either so it’s a wash on the voltage supply there. One is mechanical and the other is electrical .

In my opinion they were loads better and more durable than a current Pertronix. That said, a few more things. They absolutely without question, did/do not like voltage spikes/transients. In other words they didn’t care much for untrained battery boosting procedures, and for sure welding on the car without disconnecting if the battery beforehand. This was a big one. And took out lots of unilite modules in the day. So much so they started selling an add on power filter to help out matters.

The little unilite for its time was in fact a very accurate distributor. They flat did a good job of accurately firing the spark at the right moment, and would do it for a long long time if the module didn’t get smoked.

They weren’t real good in the 1986-1988 time frame for arriving with the total mechanical curve being where the little tag in the box said it was set at at the factory. I would check that to be sure for peace of mind.

To recurve it, will require at the least their stepped plastic key to set the total mechanical advance.its not a 100% got to have, but it sure helps so you don’t have to do the adjust and check and repeat song and dance. Their springs are also somewhat special also. A Mallory curve kit would make life 20x easier here for sure.

The vacuum advance units used to be adjustable for a small workable range. Or at least the ones I had messed with years and years ago were.

I would have no issue running one today. However, when stuff starts falling off of it, one might be advised to have some spare parts on hand. I’m sure a replacement vac adv canister would keep you busy for a day or two trying to locate. Not that they are prone to fail, but you cannot call the speed shop or jegs and summit that I’m aware of.

Ultimately as was said earlier, for my money a good old fashioned points distributor tuned up and a cd box is rather damn hard to improve upon.

With the same curve in either, it’s not gonna be a noticeable advantage either way, street or strip, until stuff starts falling off. And then at that point, replacement service items is when or may be when the fight starts…

I agree with this set-up for best reliability. A stock Pontiac distributor, curved properly, with a working vacuum vacuum advance, possibly limited a little based on engine set-up. I do prefer cast iron like mentioned here, but aluminum body is fine also if in good condition. The slight down side to the iron unit is availability of a correct distributor gear. They use the smaller roll pin for retention. So if using a new gear, the shaft will need to be opened up to fit the larger roll pin. I do like using an MSD box for faster starting, keeping plugs cleaner, and just better, sharper driving characteristics at low RPM's, under 3000 RPM's. Above 3000 RPM, an MSD really does nothing. It's a single sharp spark.

Distributor choices
 

I' ve been useing Progression Ignition in my 407ci. street engine.
Highly recomenned!! it is made in U.S like you wish for.
Please take a look
It is best distributor in my opinion.


https://progressionignition.com/#

As I've mentioned many times on here and other Forums, most aftermarket distributors work, some are decent, so-so, others are PATHETIC. No matter what you choose in that arena ALL of them will take a dump sooner or later. Problem is that it's highly unlikely you'll be sitting in front of Jegs or Summit when this happens.

I'll add that I only worked on factory distributors here, all types over the years until I retired. Stock points are my personal favorite followed very closely by factory HEI's. It's rare to see a factory points distributor that can't be brought back to life without a lot of effort. HEI's on the contrary are pretty hard on the main shaft and lower bushing. If/when the bushing is trashed the shaft will be as well, so even if you have the means to install a .490" lower bushing you are going to need a replacement shaft as well.

HEI's are also pretty hard on the pins and weights as very few every got any lubricant added to them when they rotor was off. Quite a few will have also had those POS MrGasket or Morroso spring/weight kits installed, which are HOPELESS. So likely you'll need to find OEM parts for that end of it as well.

I'm pretty much out of the game here, still selling some carburetor parts and rebuild kits, but not much else. I highly recommend Sune Tuned for this service as he's still taking them last time we talked........

I have a question about the iron units. Why do all the ones I have come across all feel nice and tight ? Are their bushings larger ? Do they oil better than the aluminum units ?
I have one simply because back in 85 I bought a junk yard engine out of a 62 Catalina just for the "steel" rods. Should have bought the whole car. It was a survivor, all there and no rust.
Anyway Dan Whitmore was my mentor and said there were the best ones to use so I sent him mine. Set it up on his Sun machine . Vacuum bulb is still there but it mech advance only.
Given me decades of trouble free service.
I did not know about them having a smaller roll pin. Dan must have drilled mine out. I bought a nice 65 GTO iron unit from Paul Carter a while back and I noticed the smaller pin.

Tell you what, this is how good my ignition system works. I have been working on my race cars gas pedal. Seems it was bent after years of drag racing and I was not getting full throttle. While having the wife stomp the pedal we dumped 2-3 squirts from the duel 50cc accelerator pumps down the intake. Did not like that so I emptied the fuel bowls by pulling a screw out then put some paper towels under the squirters and emptied them. So carb was DRY. But there was still some fuel sitting on the Victors waffle area so I opened the butterflies with some zip ties hoping it would evaporate over 3 days.
Well some was still there after I got done with the pedal work, you could see it. I filled up the bowls with electric pump, did not touch the pedal so the accelerator pumps were dry. As soon as hit the starter it immediately fired up and wanted to idle. points triggered MSD ignition rocks !

The one negative I have with my GM HEI is the blunderbust size. Seems to make the rear of the engine cramped with kick down linkage, throttle linkage, ignition wires, and wiper motor all jammed in next to the power brake booster. I’m old and less nimble so it takes more swearing etc. to work around.

The bushings are exactly the same size od,id, and length.

The main reason they stay together better is the iron units at the bottom of the housing fully support and I mean fully surround the bottom bushing….tightly. This keeps any movement outside normal expansion rates to zero.
The fact that the iron housing was poured from the same exact iron formulation as the engine blocks, as they were poured in the same plant, keeps the expansion rates of both exactly the same rate.

The second and likely of equal importance here is the oiling for the iron distributors was much different than the later lighter aluminum units. As long as one used hood oil and changed it on a regular basis, you were pretty much gold.

Thank you everyone. It seems that a points distributor and msd are the way to go. Now where can one find a rebuilt or excellent condition iron points distributor?

Sun tuned, do you rebuild the units or.just tune them for advance?

Both.

I’ve even started fixing the worn bottom shafts of the original GM stuff.

If you had an msd box you wanted to run, you can trigger it with the unilite.

I’d have no issue running the unilite if you have it handy. Some people will tell you it’s only worth say 5$, if it’s new, I’d get it curved and put it in the car and send it.

However, as Cliff alluded to… eventually it will croak. I believe a couple others mentioned this also. It’ll last a good long while unless you send it to an early grave .

You may find you could sell it in the box for a decent amount of money on eBay, fund a different deal.

The thing to remember is that no matter what you decide to do, the advance curve that’s in whatever you use, matched to the combo you have , is going to be the biggest increase in power you notice much more so than what type of distributor it is. This is assuming they all are healthy to begin with.

But, when the module in any of this stuff croaks, you have to replace that with a new one…period. End of story. If you run a points distributor and use it to trigger an msd, when it croaks, you swap coil wires and still go home. That is one extra option you have at your disposal, that you don’t have with some of the boutique distributors.

I would use a ready to run to trigger an MSD box. If the MSD box fails on the road, you can rewire to run the ignition using the internal module. Keep two extra coils, an extra MSD box, a points distributor with three sets of points, two alternators, and a spare starter in the trunk and you've got at least a 30% chance of making it wherever you are going assuming the weather holds up.

Iron Ponits Distributor
 

They’re good…. :)

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...d.php?t=749108

Yes, that last sentence is exactly why I'll use them.

I don't have any iron housings for Pontiac but I do have a couple of iron distributors laying around for Chevrolet on the mezzanine, one has been in the Nomad since the early 70's and when I daily drove that car it always worked flawless. In fact it still has the same set of points in it from the 80's when I was driving it, that thing still fires right up on the first lick and purrs. Always thought the little oil tube with a spring lid was a cool feature. They had service in mind when they built those.

I don't really have any issues with the aluminum housings either. Run the original in the Firebird and the original 480 in the 69 Z. I still see them at swap meets all the time, not the expensive numbers type so much but run of the mill points distributors are pretty much still a dime a dozen at swap meets. Saw a handful of them this weekend for $30-$40. People always dump them thinking the newest wiz bang setup is better. Could always pick up a couple of those, if they feel tight, and most of them seem to be, I'd have no issue going through it and running it for a project for myself.

I haven't dicked with points in thirty-plus years. I'm amazed that they're getting good press here. I was DONE with points when the HEIs showed-up in the Treasure Yards.

HEI is THE most-reliable electronic ignition ever designed. Parts are readily available even in Small-Town America, and probably Small-town Canada and Mexico, too. Given a choice, I'd start with a used-but-usable GENUINE GM "Delco" HEI core. Of course, there's been no new DELCO HEIs for a couple of decades, and aftermarket parts are becoming questionable...but the same goes for points and condensers.

I like the larger spread between plug terminals. Being a bigger unit isn't a bug, it's a feature.

And...set up properly, you can run the HEI-compatible spark box of your choice, and when it fails you re-connect the HEI module and drive home.



Unilite...Pertronix...NO THANKS. Points distributors make great oil-pump priming tools.

I purchased a Mallory Unilite conversion module in 1985 after the dyno operator sent me down to the speed shop when my Mallory X points were crapping out after about 5,400 RPM. That same Unilite module is still puttering along just fine and my old Sun machine can't go high enough to find out the upper RPM limit.

I wonder if the proponents of points have ever checked them on a distributor machine? Most start taking a dump in the low 4,000 range with very few making it anywhere near 6,000 RPM. Fine for grandma to go to the grocery store back in the day, but the industry has made some progress since the horse and buggy days. We just ran an engine on the Westech dyno and the points distributor was starting to get wonky about 4,400. The interesting thing is the points looked pretty good up to about 5,400 on the machine but on the engine they started giving trouble way below that. Maybe running harmonics that wasn't there on the distributor machine upset the points? I brought along a cast iron distributor with a Fast XRi module and it kept things together for the rest of the day. The first photo is what I usually see when running points at moderately high RPM's on the Sun machine, and the second is with an electronic module installed. Give me Unilite, XRi, MSD, or anything but Pertronix (I wonder if 95% of the bad press about electronic modules doesn't originate from Pertronix failures).

You guys running cheap set of points?
I've had the accel points on the distributor machine, when the sun machine worked, lol and never had issues at higher rpms.

I've run just about everything at one time or another, and prefer MSD/Holley units. Tolerances on the housings is really good, pickups are really good (mag and/or hall effect), and for the most part are easily setup. The mag pickup MSDs (or other) are very reliable, and are less of a concern than HEI units. All are stable to RPMs most here will never see.

The HEIs wide spread terminals are a good thing, helps prevent crossfire/arc. That is especially a good thing once you start using CD boxes with higher spark. They do make the wide setup for MSD dizzies if you want that, but the regular cap design has ridges that help almost as well. I have not noticed any arc witness marks with them (as long as the parts are fresh & clean). Space is a premium, especially with 3x2/2x4 setups.

HEI unit quality is a factor for HEIs, and weights as well as matching weights can get dicey (on OE points setups too). You can skip right past all those drawbacks if you lockout a dizzy (any kind) and use a programmable MSD (or other) unit.

I can see using an OE unit if you are trying to stay original or for a 'look', but makes no sense to be to use one on a performance app. And try finding a good performance cap for an OE points dizzy. The few out there are just as expensive as any other performance cap, if not more. Cheap caps with a CD box are eaten very quickly. Or even just a good coil. Same with rotors.



.

Little side note: For those interested in the old iron distributors. At the Norwalk swap meet there were well over 100 of them for sale by many, many vendors. If not looking for a specific one with the DELCO band still on it, there were many good cores for $35.00-$50.00. Take it apart, clean and lubricate everything, check the vacuum advance and you have a good starting point without dealing with poor fitting/non- functioning Chinese crap.

watch Engine Masters ep. Throwing Sparks

Just an fyi and for others reading, those really nice and heavy msd caps you can readily buy with female terminals fit the points distributors. I can still also purchase the nice accel caps.

Yup, just the little swap meet I went to over the weekend I must have seen a half dozen points distributors for $30 or so.

Yes, and are about $55+ without rotor. The 'Streetfire' ones for same money get you the rotor too, but aren't as nice as the regular ones.

I haven't checked on the Accel ones in a long time, but suspect they are about the same price.


.

Everything is expensive these days so that's pretty much the norm now.

The Echlin Heavy Duty cap with brass terminals and a tan, Heavy Phenolic plastic is $28.00 at any NAPA store. The similar high quality rotor is around $13.00 . Echlin heavy duty points are also available at NAPA. Not sure of cost. Echlin used to make all that stuff for Accel. With Holley buying Accel, who knows where the stuff is made now? Have to assume China.

I've got one.
 

You wonder ? Well YES, that is exactly what I did. Got my distributor fresh from Dan back in the day with those same Nappa/Accel CS7860 points you can still buy today.
Ran that sucker up to the max RPM spinning so fast that I did not entirely feel safe standing next to it. never a blip, not one. Did you have points made in North Korea then stomp on them ?
I tell people to get the medium spring for a reason, they do not bounce !
AND I did my own "dyno" test at the drag strip. Took my Whitmore iron distributor and made a pass. Pulled it and swapped a aluminum dist, changed the springs form the iron one. Both have the advances limited the same. Aluminum had a Petronix.
And ran the same pass.
My buddies Sun machine could not find the point where the medium spring points bounced !
There were a couple of cars at the track yesterday misfire ring with electronic stuff. Mine has not had a miss fire in 30 years.

I had the 400 on my GTO up to 6300 with no points bounce. I run the medium oz. rated points. (28?) I’d have to look it up.

Well, on misfires, when you hear it, it's hard to blame it on any one thing, but I know when you run a box it eats caps, rotors, and plug wires faster than without.

And I have seen people run plug wires for 10-20 years without changing them, saying 'they still look good' as justification. Just like the tire guys.



.

Right now I have the correct aluminum dizzy in my 68 GTO. However when I bought it used in 1976 with 90k miles on it, it had an iron unit installed. I assume replaced at some point by the original owner (he was not mechanically inclined so had to be done at a dealer or shop). I replaced it with aluminum for originality sake ... makes me wonder if the dealer/shop knew something back then and I should go back to the iron unit which I still have. When I was building the engine, half a dozen times I picked up that iron distributor and contemplated if I should use it .. I like iron thing ... but ended up opting for a correct aluminum one.
I'm guessing the original aluminum unit crapped out at some point in the first 90k miles.

Of all the aluminum distributors the 67-68 housings are the best there is out of all of em.

If you look down under the bottom, just under the gear, you will find the wall thickness of the housing where it supports the bushing is about 30% thicker there.

They are much more friendly on the bottom bushing.

I have no clue why they changed that. It was a win anyhow you looked at it and 69-74 was noticeably thinner.

Thanks for that. I have always wondered why they are so much tighter.
There is just something about pressing a bushing into cast iron.
What is you bottom gear clearance difference between iron and aluminum ?
Exactly what is 'hood oil " ?
I have not noticed and oil tubes with spring cups on my 2 Pontiac iron distributors that I have.
And can you trigger a MSD box with a HEI with the module unplugged ?
Exactly how does that work ?

He meant good oil not hood oil.

I’m used to interpreting typos when reading posts here.

Yes, Bart is right….”good oil”.

Used to be fairly common occurrence around here years back to see HEI distributors triggering MSD boxes. Don’t hardly see it anymore at all these days.

I think a lot of folks were mistakenly under the illusion that MSD was firing multiple sparks throughout the ENTIRE rom range and that is simply not correct. They only do the multiple spark thing up to 3000 rpm then it reverts back to a single long duration spark.

Works just like a regular msd distributor… except instead of the black with purple tracer and black with orange tracer for the msd mag pickup….. you just use an HEI and the green and white mag pickup leads.

I think another reason you don’t see as many HEI’s is some people can’t spare the room for it…. Multiple carbs etc.

Fixed properly with good solid parts the damn things are near indestructible. Now I know lots of folks have had issues, but I believe there were other underlying things going on to cause them.

Just like a points distributor … fixed properly with the right parts…. Their also near indestructible , at least for about 15,000 miles or so before one needs to check the dwell.

Endplay on all these distributors is a real “sky is falling subject”. Personally I think folks place way too much emphasis on this. For sure more than is needed.
I’ll say this. On a cast iron unit you can within reason so pretty much whatever you want. You can shim them tighter than the aluminum units simply because the aluminum expands at a greater rate than the iron.

With that said, there is no need to do this. That shimming thing was originally designed as a sort of workaround to counter a looser than ideal reluctor assy . And that idea was an opinion at best to begin with.

I see too many shimmed too tightly on a regular basis.
That will cause far more harm than good.

Dragncar,
I do endplay differently than I used to 30 years ago, and certainly different than most people. Most will break out feeler gauges and try and shoot for some specific number they’ve heard or read about.

It’s fine to do that, as one needs to know when they’re getting down close to too close. Folks getting all caught up in those numbers. At GM they set the distributors up with a go/no go gauge. I was told by the fella that was in charge of the plant that built them that originally they had 2 gauges on a key ring attached to a small chain. These had a dime and a nickel on each workstation. They were told to “nickel and dime it” meaning nothing wider than a nickel and nothing tighter than a dime. That’s where the factory clearance came from. I’m also told some idiot raised hell about “defacing money” in the plant so these got turned into “formal” plug gauges…

Sure the factory setup looks to have heaps of clearance in there, but they work fine even with it there. Due to the helix on the gear teeth all but the Oldsmobile distributors run or are thrust “UP” into the bottom of the housing against the thrust washer. The olds is naturally thrust “DOWN” onto the iron boss in the block. In each case once running the excess clearance is dealt with accordingly. As long as the engine is running there is none.


As far as numbers go I’d not shim an aluminum housing tighter than .025, and although you can shim the iron tighter due to less elongation of housing due to heat expansion I’d not go much tighter there either.

Those days and for at least the last 20 years I just shim them a bit more snug than stock to make people feel better and leave it be. It’s not the big issue most make it out to be. Originally racers did it to compensate for loose reluctor bores, to try and cheat what they felt was a non issue to begin with in my opinion.

Out of all 42 responses here, only one mention of Progression ignition. To choose an advance curve and load it from my phone seems like a pretty attractive deal to me. www.progressionignition.com

I'll let you know if/when it fails.

I've looked into progressive but all that fancy whiz bang technology terrifies me.

Lol, not really but I do like the simplicity of points and carbs and mechanical fans and pumps.

One of the best ignition systems that I have ever used was a factory points distributor with Crane XR700 ignition box. Essentially, the Crane unit replaced the points with a hall effect trigger system. Totally flawless and maintenance free for 25 years. Would still be using it except I "upgraded" for fuel injection purposes.

I am of the same thought process. Not interested at all in putting anything car related on my phone. Prefer the simplicity of points, mechanical fans etc..... all our daily are that way and rock solid dependable.

I like mine.

Love my progression ignition.

I've always been torn ... I really love the simplicity and reliability of some of my old analog gas and diesel engines, aboslutely bullet proof most of them. But, I'd also love to own an old Pontiac engine with the latest greatest FI system, roller cam, coil on plug, programmable ECU ... as much modern systems as you could stuff on one .. just to see how efficient you could make it run. Problem is you'd have to use aftermarket stuff in most cases rather than heavily tested and researched factory parts that have billion dollar R&D departments behind them.

Don't get me wrong, I like some of the wiz bang stuff on the market and I do use it on other cars, but those are cars that are weekend toys. EFI, hydraulic rollers, MSD billet distributors and digital boxes with all the gadgets etc..... and I do drive the wheels off those cars without issue and we do go some long distances of 3-400 miles with them at a time, I just don't use that stuff on my daily drivers. They are all flat tappet cams with points distributors, mechanical fuel pumps and carbs. Not because I don't fully trust the other stuff, but the dailys happen to be cars you don't really want to go changing all those things around, like a 70 RAIII Formula and a 69 Z/28 all with numbers matching stuff. They have a little bit of value, not really something I want to monkey with so they stay stock. They also work perfectly fine as dailys that way too, with respectable mileage, dependability etc.... Not the fastest thing on the road but that's not what they are about.

So I'm kind of on both sides of the fence with this stuff, it just depends on the car we are talking about. There are however a lot better choices for ignition systems than pertronix stuff. MSD distributors, MSD boxes, points distributors, and things like that, I don't have a problem using and don't question it. HEI's I tend to shy away from, Nevermind if there is a reliability issue with modules these days, I shy away from them only because they are big and bulky and take away from a stockish appearance.